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The Thin-Client Challenge?

Posted by Cliff on from the might-be-something-worthwhile-here dept.

An Anonymous Coward asks: "A friend of mine showed me this webpage which basically asks this question and offers a challenge to create a UNIX-ish Thin Client that can connect to a Windows terminal server. He really is serious, and has attempted this on his own before. Any hope out there in the Linux world for a small, easy to deploy thin-client only distro?" This is not the first time this question has come thru the pipe before, however I figure if someone can answer this challenge, all will benefit. Does anyone think this can be done? If so, speak up, if not, please give reasons as to why.

44 comments

  1. Too late by rw2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I was going to answer his question, but burned through $150 of billing time reading his page and typing this reply. :-(

    1. Re:Too late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, exactly. $150 is nothing. What sort of idiots does he take us to be? Sheesh.

  2. wow...$150 by ReidMaynard · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have nothing more to add at this time

    except

    this sounds like a stupid idea...btw, whats a w2k terminal server do?

    --
    -- www.globaltics.net

    Political discussion for a new world

    1. Re:wow...$150 by kneecap · · Score: 2, Funny

      What does a w2k terminal server do?

      what else, crash and/or get hacked.

    2. Re:wow...$150 by mini+me · · Score: 1

      Windows Terminal Server is Microsoft's lame attempt at an X implementation. It is also Microsoft's lame attempt at a Citrix MetaFrame implementation. In other words, if you aren't familiar with those products, it's a way to run Windows remotely.

      I don't however think it's such a stupid idea, what better way to start integrating Linux into a Windows environment than to start using it to do Windows tasks. Terminal Services Client (TSC) on Windows as a thin-client just doesn't work, and really doesn't make any sense. I've seen a few places that boot up a bare-bones Windows install and then launch TSC. But first you have to log on the local machine, then the remote, etc. it's pretty messy. Linux would suit the task perfectly.

  3. Rdesktop.... by L.J.+Hanson · · Score: 2, Informative

    Shouldn't be to hard to make. I was fairly certain someone had a two floppy X11 distro. There is a base, just add in rdesktop and your done.

    L.J. Hanson

  4. who wants the $150? by spike666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    go here:

    http://www.ltsp.org/contrib/diskless-windows-how to .htm

    why do i suspect that this guy is gonna pay someone $150 and then turn around and charge a client $15000 for it? maybe i'm just too cynical after reading about the Fink deal.
    *sigh*

    1. Re:who wants the $150? by Matthew+Weigel · · Score: 2

      I agree. A client/server consulting company is looking for someone to do some work on a flexible, widely-applicable software project, basically for free, that will definitely be used to replace "a load of Windows boxes."

      Surely, as a software consultant, he realizes that you don't consult for free, especially if the client is better situated to make money on it than you. Did you notice how everything has to be under the GPL or BSD license? I notice that their software doesn't appear to be free... is it so that you don't have a chance of making more money on the deal than $150?

      He would already have a working set-up on his hands if he either a) made clear his intentions to resell, and arranged for some kind of money-sharing agreement, or b) offered a real sum of money for the proposed purpose (back to that "load of Windows boxes"). But the people who can do this quickly and professionally are going to expect to maintain a professional, i.e., reasonably beneficial, relationship.

      His 'challenge' is for someone to do something for nothing, which is not at all what free software is about; custom setup (despite his pleas for l33t hax0rs to take the job, this is more of s'kiddie job) is always expensive, end of story.

      --
      --Matthew
  5. Any success with other thin clients? by Lally+Singh · · Score: 2

    I've been looking at the Sun Rays and have wondered how they've run out in the real world. Has anyone had any experience with these or other systems?

    --
    Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
    1. Re:Any success with other thin clients? by cdh · · Score: 1

      We use them (SunRay) in our office. We started out with an Ultra10 to support 5 users. This was pretty slow, we have since switched to a 420 (gotta love the dot com bust :) and it works great. We all run Ximian Gnome, Mozilla, play MP3s and I abuse XEmacs and the machine is still very snappy.

      The thing we learned it to have plenty of memory and CPU. We tried to go cheap and it didn't work too well. We are all Unix sysadmins yet it's nice not having to maintain different boxes, IOW, it allows us to do our "normal" jobs.

    2. Re:Any success with other thin clients? by Phork · · Score: 1

      I have only had one experience with Sun Rays, and it was bad, very bad.
      At java one 2 years ago sun had something like 500(maybe even 1000) sun rays set up around moscone center. When you picked up your badge for the show, you got your smart card which got you onto the sun rays. before the show really started, and there were no many people, they were working ok, not fast, but ok. By the end of the first day of the show they werent really usable. it was taking several minutes to logon, and doing anythign was painfully slow.
      The next morning, the sun rays were all gone. They had all been replaced by ultra 10s.
      If sun cant even get them to run in a workable state, i have no faith in sun rays. Keep in mind that the network they were running on proably wasnt the most ideal, because they only have 5 days to setup the show. But still having to replace the $500 thin clients with $6000 workstations just doesnt look good.
      If the network was the computer, then we all using a giant abacus.

      --
      -- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
    3. Re:Any success with other thin clients? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heya,
      Could you describe your setup in greater detail? I'd like to know what the specs of the Ultra10 were compared to the 420 you have now. Also, are you running Solaris apps exclusively on the server, or do you use SunPci IIpro cards to run Windows apps also? Have you encountered any situations that tax your setup to the limit? Under what situations was the Ultra10 not able to keep up?

      I'm asking because I'd be considering going with such a setup to support 8 simultaneous users. Oh yeah, and I'm sure other /.ers are also simply curious. *cough*

    4. Re:Any success with other thin clients? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first batch was awful. We had 100 of them, but they all had to be replaced after a year. Fortunately, SUN replaced all those for free. We still have another 10-12 months before we know if these will still continue to work.

      The SunRay software was also crappy. Version 1.1 and 1.2 both sucked. We had to reboot the servers every few weeks to clear the problems. When we migrated to Solaris 8 from Solaris 7, we had to reboot them more frequently to clear a memory leak with the dtlogins. Version 1.3 has been pretty stable so far, but we still get a few geckoed screens every few days.

      If it stays up for another month without problems, I would recommend it. I definitely(this IS the RIGHT spelling - notice that there is no 'a') DO NOT recommend any version of the SunRay software prior to 1.3.

  6. Not too difficult by uslinux.net · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This sounds fairly trivial, actually. From his specs, assuming a standard set of hardware, it wouldn't be too hard to build a stock kernel, X with standard SVGA, use the splash screen patches to hide the messages, and install rdesktop (which, for those of you who are unfamiliar, is similar to the Citrix client).

    In fact, he could even do a thin-client boot from the network and go diskless (which would make maintenance even easier), though for his specs, mounting most the partitions read-only and running reiser or ext3 on anything which changes would probably suffice).

    I'm fairly sure I could do this in very little time, but I'm sure someone with more free time (since this project isn't paying enough for those of us who need to pay our rent) will beat me to it :-)

  7. Here's how by RGRistroph · · Score: 5, Informative
    First, check out DemoLinux, and see if it has rdesktop on it or if you can get them to add it by sending a polite email. If so, then you are mostly done. Otherwise:

    To start, look at the files in this minimal distribution that runs X:

    2-Disk Xwindow Linux

    Look at other minimal distributions including the various floppy linuxes and bigger ones like Peanut Linux. Ibiblio's list of distributions is probably the place to start. Look at some of those distributions that come on busincard sized CDs.

    So pick one of these that seems configurable and set up a machine with the hardware you have in mind and install it (or boot from the floppies) and start adding to it. First do X, then your rdesktop client, whatever that is. Here's a hint: don't worry about removing compilers, unused libs, etc until you are done. Even then, keep several CDs of the "development edition" around, because you may need all that stuff to add more things in the future.

    To get your automatic boot up and start of the client and etc, look at how Mandrake does the automatic log in thing, and simply put all the commands you want to be run in your .xinitrc file, and then have the window manager be the last command. Look at man xinit for details.

    The final step would be to trim it down and set it up. My approach here would be to make it a bootable CD like Finnix. In fact, what I would do is start with Finnix, add X and the other stuff, and if I still had space on the CD, stop. Free space on a read-only medium is useless, you might as well put every single thing you think you might need on there until you fill it up.

    Some modifications I would make to Finnix would be putting all of the /etc directory in the ram disk, so you could re-configure things on the fly, and if your machine did have a local harddrive, maybe you could use that for swap. Running off a CD means that the user can just turn off the machine when done -- there is no disk to fsck, everytime it starts up it thinks it is the first time, so to speak. I've been playing with modifying finnix, I copied the cd to disk and modified some stuff, and got busy and never burned my new copy to see if it would boot.

    But in the long run, you have to realize that you are not going to get someone to do this for you for $150. You might try out DemoLinux and see if it already meets your needs as is -- I would expect that you would need to add that rdesktop thing. You have to either pony up the money, or do it yourself.

    Inspite of what some Zealot Hypesters may have told you about Linux being as easy to use as the interface to a coke machine or whatever, you have to come to the realization that Linux is about Freedom. It will always be easier not to be free. Worrying about "is linux ready to meet this bulletized list of requirements" is like worrying whether you might have to walk around a lot and get rained on sometimes and have to get a job if they let you out of prison. If you have any self-respect, it doesn't matter: a free system is the only choice. This means that you have to either put up with not being able to do what you want with computers, or bite the bullet and spend some of your own personal time reading and learning how to install things and configure stuff. Just like you spend your personal time reading the newspaper and going to vote.

    If I sound like a dirty gnu hippie Stallman-worshipping fanatic, it's because I am, and I'm proud of it.

  8. Bootable Business Card + rdesktop by Wonko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Go to www.lnxbbc.org and a copy of the bootable business card cd. You can get the latest copy out of cvs, get a copy of their simple little build script and add whatever you want to it. I've got my own personal copy that I've added a few things to, one of which is rdesktop(and X11 rdp client).

    It has XFree86 on it, and runs on the framebuffer, so it should work on darn near anything. It's got drivers for every nic I've tried it on, already on the disc. And it's worked fine with every pcmcia nic I've tried.

    Shouldn't take too much effort to make it boot straight to X, and start an rdesktop connection. Anywho, it's a place to start.

    Pat

  9. What the hell has /. become? by Usquebaugh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Firstly, this is not really a difficult problem, I've submitted far harder and had them refused :-( If you're a programmer and know how to search the web you can probably achieve most of this within a week.

    Secondly, it's worth a damn sight more than $150 That's the real problem, It's not some hacker with a pet peeve or needs to know if some tech is available, it's a company asking for free consultation. Shouldn't this be posted in the OSDN jbs section?

    Go on mod me off topic, until /. has a daily article for people to bitch about /. I'll continue to post off topic.

    1. Re:What the hell has /. become? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you have a load of windows boxes that you own personally then? I seriously doubt that. Sounds to me like this is a project you've promised to do for the company you work as a programmer for, and now you're stuck, the deadline is soon and you're too dishonest to say to the company, look, I can't do this, we need to pay someone else to do this. So you thought you'd ask slashdot, offering a measly sum out of your wages because you are too cheap to offer more. Man, you suck.

    2. Re:What the hell has /. become? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a conspiracy in everything, boy. Just remember that next time you do a favor for anyone.

  10. Done. by Nailer · · Score: 5, Informative

    Runs on a commodity Pentium-class or higher (assume approximately ~166 MHz or higher) x86 hardware, 32 MB of RAM, preferably within 16 MB of RAM.

    Sounds reasionable. Use Keith Ps TinyX X server, which is used on Microwindows any many oother embedded Linux systems.

    Is very barebones - I do not need a full distro. Under ~128 MB in size would be great.

    My work does embedded Linux consumer devices for Large Unnamed Japanese Electronics Company. 128MB is doable.

    Pico or VIM is okay for a default editor.

    They're unecessary too. Obviously the end user won't modify text files. Keep the whole development on a seperate OC and cross compile - this keeps the shit off the small box and means you can compile things faster.

    Requires no user intervention to boot, get a DHCP lease, load X-Windows, start the rdesktop client, and connect to a machine with the DNS name of "termserver" or other similiar handy name.

    Cool. Autologin to X by a particular user is supported by most display managers. Then in whatever users .xinitrc or .xsession (I can never remember which is which) put:

    START

    #!/bin/bash

    # Change the background color and cursor
    xsetroot -solid rgb:39/6d/a4 -cursor /terminal/cursor.xpm /terminal/mask.xpm

    # Set the variable lasthost to the content of the .rdplasthost file
    lasthost=`cat .rdplasthost`

    # Set the variable host to the stdout of Xdialog
    host=`Xdialog --stdout --icon rdesktop.xpm --no-cancel --ok-label "Connect" --inputbox "" 400x200 $lasthost`

    # If we can ping the host, continue. If not, fuck off :)

    # Seems good. Lets remember it for next time.
    rm -rf .rdplasthost
    touch .rdplasthost
    echo $host >> .rdplasthost

    # Run an rdesktop session on the host
    rdesktop -g 1152x864 -f $host

    END

    Provides a clean, friendly method of powering off the machine without causing data corruption on the file-system level (ie, after disconnected, will prompt for re-connection or shutdown).

    Have the button on the front force a shutdown. This is easy with most embedded hardware. You'd also use a journalling filesystem.

    Supports at least three commodity network cards

    Linux can do that if you want, but I don't think you want that. Buy an untra tiny embedded box from Advantech that fits in the back on an PCD display. This way the hardware is a `known quantity' and problems are a lot easier to troubleshoot - less variables equals less things to go wrong, which is important to anyone making embedded boxes. How often do you change the hardware on your NCD thinterm RDP terminals? That's right - not very often.

    Supports a VESA standard SVGA video card, with X-Windows running in 800x600 @ 8 bit color (256 colours). The Windows 2000 Terminal Server will not support anything higher than 256 colours so its not needed to support high/true color modes.

    Cool. But fuck 800 x 600. Give them 1024 LCDs. You know you want to, and you'll sell more boxes.

    Hides all boot messages from the kernel etc, and instead replaces them with a friendly "Please Wait" message.

    Linux Progress Patch will do exactly that.

    Is distributed to me in the form of a ghost-compatible image that when restored to disk is ready to run as described above.

    Ghost is a waste of money unless your doing multicast installs. For the rest of us, PartImage will perform the same function more reliably with
    far less expense.

    Testing under VMware shouldn't be a problem, but again, I'd test on the actual device.

    Everything I've mentioned is BSD / GPL license compatible (including PartImage).

  11. Plus Ghost and VMWare? by Matthew+Weigel · · Score: 2

    Oops, didn't mean to submit so quickly- I also wanted to mention, he expects it to be tested in VMWare and in a Norton Ghost-compatible image, which costs considerably more than he's paying.

    Sure, you can use VMWare's 30-day trial, but I doubt 'commercial use' is covered under their trial license, and having just checked, I know distributing ghost images for deployment on multiple machines is prohibited by the Ghost Personal Edition license.

    These are (IMO) very minor issues, but the point is that they wouldn't even be raised if the offer was reasonable- the offer is so unreasonable that it can't cover expenses.

    --
    --Matthew
  12. Something like a thinknic? by nadie · · Score: 1

    http://www.thinknic.com/about/cdimages.html

  13. Jailbait + rdesktop by waerloga01 · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is amusing, it appears he is going to pay $150 for someone else to do his job for him.

    However, my $0.02 into the conversation is: Jailbait and of course rdesktop. I have said equipment running on my iopener (another legacy from the .bomb) to connect to a test machine I whipped up running Win2k AS. You can also use it's built in VNC client to connect to any VNC server (xwindows is pretty nifty on VNC) or remote X display. and it even comes with enough software to run on its own if nessary...needs more ram than default though.

    Anyway, that's my $0.02

  14. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  16. Similar system by Birdie-PL · · Score: 1

    In the company I'd been working previously (until it went under) we've done a set-top box that, among others, had Netscape (4.7x) with ICA plugin.

    The user was able to securely connect to Citrix server(s) and work on M$ Windows. Or just browse the web.

    The STB had also support for smart-cards to authorize end-users, plus used IPSec to protect user data.

    All this was packed into 32 MB of flash memory.

    No text editor though, except from one you got from your server.

    The whole thing wasn't GPL-ed, as our CEO wanted to protect the code developed by the company. Sigh.

    --
    e-mail: karol at tls-technologies.com
    www: http://www.tls-technologies.com
    sig: not found
    1. Re:Similar system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      • The whole thing wasn't GPL-ed, as our CEO wanted to protect the code developed by the company. Sigh.

      Well, duh. Why the hell should he give it away for free? His competitors would use it, for free. And as you well know, time is money - that includes time spent designing and programming something like this.

    2. Re:Similar system by Birdie-PL · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it was protect as in make it more secure. So we'd had some fun, all having solid background in computer security and crypto.

      --
      e-mail: karol at tls-technologies.com
      www: http://www.tls-technologies.com
      sig: not found
  17. Re:A Few Clarifications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think if you are charging $199 setup fee for web hosting on your server, you can afford a little more than $150 to pay for this. Don't give us the "poor college student" bullshit.

    Incidentally, one way to `save' money would be to have each terminal server client using the same license. Windows 2000 is fine with this, and it can save you a small fortune in licensing fees. Then you might be able to afford to pay someone a decent whack of money!

  18. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  19. rdp4/5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Note that rdesktop only supports rdp4, not rdp5 which the newer terminal servers (windows 2000 and upwards) use. And it's support for rdp4 is rather flaky too. Maybe a better solution would be getting the windows ce dev kit and rolling your own windows-based terminal server client (the dev kit comes with tsclient binaries).

    1. Re:rdp4/5 by alyandon · · Score: 1

      Doesn't Windows 2000 Terminal Server support both rdp4 and rdp5 clients?

    2. Re:rdp4/5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but rdp5 is better in terms of features and saving bandwidth.

  20. Poor college student? by fliplap · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    http://www.silvercorona.com/content/services/mail. asp



    Mail Center Services. Silver Corona can help your organization manage all your opt-in mass-mailings. From a hundred to a hundred thousand messages, Silver Corona can deliver your message. Silver Corona has comprehensive support tools for both one-time and scheduled mailings. Provided with all packages is complete list management, address validation, and response tracking. Please note, Silver Corona will not participate in unsolicited commerical mailings or any type of "spamming".



    What i would like to know is, how do you verify that these lists are opt-in?



    Plus, I find it very hard to believe you only want this product for small private or non-profit organizations since all your other services are trying to hook larger fish. Don't try to pretend you can't figure this out yourself, or afford a decent amount to have someone do it for you. ou obviously plan to make a decent amount of money off this, i suggest you offer some kind of profit sharing to the developer. And hey, if you really don't plan on making much money off it, well then you won't be losing much right?



    I find it ever harder to believe that you goto school full time, run all these services by your self, and still don't have a clue about unix. If you know this little about Unix you shouldn't be advertising a hosting service. I noticed you offer unix shells as well, what business do you have offering shell services without knowing 2 bits about Unix? Also, if you have all this time to develop "scWeb" why can't you get some books and do this project yourself. I noticed this projectg went from version 1.0 to 3.0 in less than 2 months.


    All in all, you don't provide a credible story. I suggest you change your slashdot nick, reword your entire posting, come up with a new story, register a new domain, and submit this question again. Don't try to pull that "I'm too poor and stupid routine" because you're obviously not.

    1. Re:Poor college student? by bjtuna · · Score: 3, Informative


      I find it ever harder to believe that you goto school full time, run all these services by your self, and still don't have a clue about unix. If you know this little about Unix you shouldn't be advertising a hosting service. I noticed you offer unix shells as well, what business do you have offering shell services without knowing 2 bits about Unix? Also, if you have all this time to develop "scWeb" why can't you get some books and do this project yourself. I noticed this projectg went from version 1.0 to 3.0 in less than 2 months.

      Dan, the guy in question, is a close friend of mine. He works for a consulting company full time, 9-5. He then goes to school from 6-10 at night, taking 18 credits. He's one of the most efficient programmers I know, and is, in my opinion, a gifted site designer. His program went from v1.0 to v3.0 in 2 months because he goes on coding binges that sometimes last days.

      The unix shells he offers are on my boxes. Dan is an excellent Windows admin but he isn't comfortable about his skills with Unix. Rather than simply not sell a valuable service, he contracted it out to me. Sounds like good business sense if you ask me, but then again I'm making money on the deal so what do I know? :)

      fliplap, reading a couple things on Dan's website and then thinking you can draw all sorts of conclusions about him as a techie or as a person is simply irresponsible.

      --
      Intercarve Networks, LLC
    2. Re:Poor college student? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're so good with Unix systems, why don't you do it (take up the challenge) then?

    3. Re:Poor college student? by bjtuna · · Score: 2

      If you're so good with Unix systems, why don't you do it (take up the challenge) then?

      Because I don't have time. He did ask me to do it, and I said I'd love to but I just coulnd't fit it into the schedule. And I didn't say I was "so good with Unix systems"; I just said I was more comfortable with them than Dan is.

      --
      Intercarve Networks, LLC
    4. Re:Poor college student? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what we can conclude from this is that you and he are the same person, yes?

    5. Re:Poor college student? by bjtuna · · Score: 2

      So what we can conclude from this is that you and he are the same person, yes?

      uhhhh... no?

      --
      Intercarve Networks, LLC
    6. Re:Poor college student? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't give me this FUCKING BULLSHIT!

  21. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  22. Re:A Few Clarifications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So in other words you can be like Bill Gates and pay someone to do your dirty work for $150 and when it becomes successful screw em huh?