Debian Freeze Process Update

snotty6969 writes: "Freeze Update. Anthony Towns sent in an updated report about the Woody freeze process. We're almost into the last week for uploads of base packages. If there are outstanding bugs you'd like to see fixed, provide patches or upload now. We are also getting into the last days for ensuring that standard and task packages get included in the Woody release. At the moment it looks like a lot of packages will be removed from Woody. Among these are a whole bunch of commonly used programs like gpm, Mutt, CVS, Procmail, Apache and Mozilla. People who can fix bugs in these packages and care about them are encouraged to send in patches or upload fixed packages using Anthony's unofficial NMU guidelines."

Comments

Not fantastic

[Mike Connell]

I've just switched distros to debian on 3 boxes (home from mandrake, web/mail/cvs/db box at work, and a development machine). I've been really pleased that although it's a bit of a PITA to get set up right, once it's done, it's really done. Yes, apt-get is lovely.

But if things like apache and mozilla (and for me procmail and cvs) are starting to fall, how is the future looking for debian? The thing I love about it is the the fact that almost everything I use I can just apt-get, and it all fits together. If I had to start getting my own packages a lot, it would really dampen debian's best feature.

I really hope this is merely a bit of sabre-rattling done in order to stir up some activity before release.

0.02

Re:Not fantastic

[Foochar]

These things are more call to arms than anything else. For example, I still depend on a working gpm so the threat of it being removed is enough that when I get home tonight I may decide to take a look and see if I can't send the maintainer some clues as to what is going on. It would be pretty hard to justify making a release without things like apache and mozilla, however if they aren't fixed then they will end up delaying the release. Debian has a bad enough history of slipping release dates without more problems to add to it.

Seems quite alarming...

[evbergen]

From the looks of it, this seems more than a bit serious. Would perhaps being dependent to a large extent on 'downstream' maintainers (who take care of the packaging) be part of the problem?

Perhaps people should encourage 'upstream' developers more to accept debian package building specs as part of their base tree.

As a developer, you still need to know a bit of how the packaging system works, but it would probably make you feel more responsible if it's included in your own releases.

Perhaps I'm way off and this all has nothing to do with it though...

Re:Where's the equivalent of the Slash we once kne

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks to isolationist "yanks" the fucking Internet exists in the first place. Fuck off.

Bzzzt. The first Internet nodes were in Noble (Africa), and Sweden shortly thereafter.

America came about fifth.

America was the first to have email, true, but rest assured that somebody else would have created it if the US hadn't.

And the killer app is web browsing, not email, and that came from Portugal, so you can't even stand on that.

Get a fucking history book or do a little research instead of listening to the shit fed you by some clueless TA or making assumptions based on warmongering national pride.

That's the whole purpose of a "stable" release

[stere0]

Being "stuck with whatever software versions Debian freezes on for a couple years", as you say it, is actually a Good Thing(tm).

If I install a web server, I want it to run something stable, trusted and tested, something I don't have to apt-get upgrade;apt-get dist-upgrade with untested packages every morning. My Potatoes haven't caused any problems since the day I installed them. I eventually have to upgrade some packages when security holes are discovered, but that's ok. There is nothing I need on a production box that isn't included in potato. (Well, maybe a cowsay package would be nice ;))

Re:That's the whole purpose of a "stable" release

[noahm]

Being "stuck with whatever software versions Debian freezes on for a couple years", as you say it, is actually a Good Thing(tm).

It can be a good thing, for sure, but at some point there's a tradeoff that must be made between stability and usability. For most of the basic internet services (web, mail, DNS), development has reached a certain point of maturity, and you really don't lose much by running a 2 year old release of sendmail or BIND (provided you have all necessary security updates, which Debian makes easy).

The problem is, though, once you start leaving that realm of the world, upstream development happens at a really fast pace, and Debian's release cycle does not keep up. I often cite GNOME in slink (Debian 2.1) as an example of this problem. Slink shipped with GNOME 0.3, which you may recall was virtually unusable and was certainly not stable. The most frustrating part of that, though, was that by the time slink actually shipped, GNOME 1.0 had been out for months! How can slink be considered stable when the software that comprises it is an old development snapshot?

A more current example may be apache 2. It is still not available for Debian (even in unstable), which leads one to suspect that it won't ship with woody. If it doesn't, then what happens to those users who need apache 2 functionality on mission critical servers? If they need to run unstable to get the software they need, then that defeats the point of stable. If they need to fetch the source and compile apache 2 outside of the Debian package system, then that defeats the point of apt-get.

IMHO, it is unacceptable for Debian to not currently have a stable release that includes PERL 5.6, XFree86 4.x, Linux 2.4.x, etc. What prevented the release manager from proclaiming a freeze 6 or 8 months ago? Newer versions of key packages were available and reasonably well tested at that point, and a 1 or two month freeze would have left us with a released version of Debian that was both stable and reasonably up to date.

One of the key problems, I believe, is that Debian does not use any notion of release goals. This makes it impossible to say for certain when a freeze should happen. It's entirely up to the release manager. Obviously it's not easy to have release goals for a distribution, since much of the software you want to package is not available when drafting the list of goals, but even some sort of vague, general release goals would help to provide focus.

Or maybe the problem is just that nobody actually wants to do QA debugging so they keep putting it off until the release manager gets fed up and stops allowing new features to be added until some bugs are fixed.

I don't know...I've been a Debian user for 5 years and a developer for about a year. I am very frustrated with the pace of the release cycle. Another OS I use regularly (FreeBSD, which I use at work) shares Debian's reputation for quality and stability, but they release at least two versions of their OS each year. They've released three versions since Debian released potato. Why can't we do that?

noah

Re:What the hell is going on?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderate this down because it's not touchy-feely nice, or moderate it up because it makes a good point. I'm posting anonymously because I don't think the average slash reader has enough common sense to do what's right anymore.

What's a "mouse driver"? Are you confusing this with some other OS, like M$ Windows?

She's probably referring to gpm, which was broken this week. Otherwise, he's referring to the break to the pointer devices earlier in XFree86-4, which does have a mouse driver.

I don't see any of the Debian users "stuck" with potato. Those who use it need a stable system, and a stable system needs to have older, more tested and understood packages. The others are happily dist-upgrading to woody every day (which is "testing", not "unstable" as you falsely claim), and I have yet to see any significant breakage in testing or even significant breakage in unstable that would have survived over 48 hours.

It's okay for something to be broken for 48 hours?

This is all unlike RedHat users, who have to wait for several months to get a new revision of their distro; we get all the new good stuff inside a week or two from upstream release, sometimes in a couple of days, like the Mozilla 0.9.6 which was made available in unstable just yesterday.

That's unstable, not testing. It won't be in testing for a long, long time.

And RedHat users wait a little while, yes, but that's to get new stable releases. And they never get a release where, for example, KDE is uninstallable as it's been for two weeks in testing.

Debian has a hell of a lot of work to do before it's ever going to be taken seriously. Debian is about the last thing to be supported by any Linux company, because you're either dealing with an installation that's two years outdated, or with users who haven't enough common sense not to be running a ticking timebomb of a chaotic workstation.

Re:What the hell is going on?

[Daniel]

Why the hell would they freeze just before emacs21 goes in, just before KDE 2.2.2 goes in, just before ALSA goes good, etc etc?


Because if we applied this criterion, we'd never freeze!

Someone's pet package is always going to be about to be released, and will be left in the cold; IMO, this fear of leaving old software in stable is a large part of what historically contributed to long release cycles. (I think the current one is long mainly because we've completely redone the archive/release infrastructure and we're still working out bugs in the new system. That and, sigh, the installer)

Daniel

Debian's standard of quality

[PurpleBob]

It's good to see that Debian is maintaining their quality even when rushed. Making threats like this is one way to accomplish that - saying to maintainers with broken patches, "if you don't submit a patch, the release will suck and it will be ALL YOUR FAULT".

And I'm frankly amazed they got Mozilla in in the first place - they hadn't since M18, and with no packaged version Mozilla it was practically impossible to install Galeon.