Slashdot Mirror
2.4 Maintainer Marcelo Tosatti Answers Your Questions
1) list of changes for the common folk
by e40
One thing that is really missing is a list of changes in each kernel release that is meant to be consumed by the masses. The "changelogs" that are offered up are sorely lacking for us non-kernel hackers. What I'd like to see is a prose description of the changes in each version. Something like Release notes for 2.2.18 by Alan Cox [linux.org.uk] is a step in the right direction, but some of it is even a little too technical. For example, in the above document, set_current_state
* Fixed potential SMP race
means little to me and probably a lot of other people. Under what condition does this occur? The question why should I care about this change? should be answered for each entry.
How do you feel about doing something like this?
MT: I agree on that the changelog is "not for end users."
As I've seen several requests, I'll try to do more extended changelogs.
However, please note that right now I'm giving higher priority to fixing problems than to writing extended changelogs.
2) diary
by Lennie
Do you have a diary, like Alan Cox we can read?
Because we all like to know, if you'll actually be doing what your gonna promise now :)
MT: No I don't, sorry...
3) Kernel growth -- is it a problem?
by connorbd
While I am a passionate Linux supporter, I have also come to the conclusion that kernel bloat is likely to be a major issue fairly soon. It appears to have been the case for some time that =486 systems Need Not Apply, and Red Hat in particular has become a rather memory-hungry distro (it won't even install on my 16MB Pentium system, though I doubt this is really a kernel issue). The end result is that Linux seems slowly to be growing out of the lower-end used-server-in-a-closet market that helped it get so big in the first place.
My question: I presume kernel bloat, both in terms of code size and resource demands, can impact heavily on maintainability. Do you see this as a significant issue for the future, how much of a problem is it, and is it something that can be easily addressed without tearing apart the code base and reorganizing it from the ground up?
MT: Core kernel bloat is a _very_ bad problem. However, I'm pretty confident Linus is not going to allow that on 2.5, though.
About more drivers/fses being added to the kernel, well, thats a bad problem for maintenance.
All we can do about it is to make sure all accepted code to the kernel is clean, simple, and well designed to make maintenance easier later...
4) code control
by brer_rabbit
Have you thought about putting your changes under some sort of version control software? If you started putting the kernel/patches under CVS, maybe the rest of the kernel crowd would follow.
MT: I'm releasing pre patches now pretty often. However, I could export my local CVS, yes.
I might do that in the future.
5) Any plans to improve documenting the kernel?
by Carnage4Life
Currently the Linux kernel is filled with functions that are either poorly documented or completely undocumented. One of the purported benefits of Free Software is that many developers can jump in and help yet when you have functions like __free_pages_ok [linux.no] in page_alloc.c that are important, complex yet the only comment is:
"Buddy system. Hairy. You really aren't expected to understand this."
Doesn't this somehow defeat the point of the source being available in the first place? Basically the question I have to ask is this, "I have flirted with the thought of sending comment only patches to the kernel to further help people understand certain subtleties (e.g. why the pprev and next pointers in user_struct are not what they seem) in the source code especially CS students who are learning about the kernel in operating systems classes. If someone were to start such a program would such patches be accepted into the kernel?
MT: Yes, I would accept such patches as long as I agree with the documentation _and_ as long as I have time to read all patches :)
6) A pretty generic question
by archen
How do you view Linux in the scheme of things? Mainly where do you think the niche of Linux is now, and where will it be years from now. How do you view the direction Linux tends to be taking compared to other OS's (Windows XP, FreeBSD, etc) - ["direction" is up to what ever you personally interpret it to be BTW]
MT: Linux has a lot of "niches": the embedded market, the home users market, the enterprise market: Handling all of those "niches" in the best possible way is a very nice challenge.
I don't see any "direction" to Linux, though: It can work well on several niches.
7) Why you?
by CmdrPinkTaco
This is not intended as a flame or a troll, more of an interview style question. I figure since we are the people who are putting our trust in this person to handle *our* kernel, that this should also be our chance to learn about the person responsible.
What makes you think that you can handle maintaining the Linux Kernel? What qualifications do you have and why should we (the people) trust you with the Linux kernel.
I realize that this is actually two questions, but they more or less go together in one answer.
MT: I think they chose me because I can deal with different people without ego fights. I usually avoid conflicts and instead I try to solve problems.
About qualifications: I've been working at Conectiva for some time (4 years) as a software developer. I'm working together with technical support, which makes me have an idea of usual end users problems/needs.
8) Patches
by return 42
Linus likes very small patches, everything broken down into little chunks of functionality. Alan is ok with bigger patches. What do you like and dislike in the patches people send you?
MT: I prefer patches which touch specific things only: what I really hate are patches which touch several kernel parts.
9) CML2, cvs, kdb, crypto and more
by iamsure
If during the course of your maintainership CML2 proves very successful (as I beleive it already has) would you consider using it instead of CML1?
Also, would you consider moving crypto into the main tree in the near future? Debian has, Redhat will "soon" ...
Would you consider using bitkeeper, cvs, or even complete changelogs with proper attribution of WHICH merges took place?
And finally, would you consider FINALLY bringing kdb into the main kernel? Linus doesnt want it, but he doesnt want it because he doesnt see the value. He didnt say he banned it ...
MT: About CML: Sure, I may consider including it in the future. Not now, though.
About crypto: I want to be out of legal problems. Sorry.
kdb: Maybe. Not now, though.
10) Alan Cox and politics
by melquiades
Alan Cox's stand on the changelog is clearly not only a matter of personal protection, but a political statement. He has chosen an issue that is tremendously important to Linux, free software, and software developers everywhere, and certainly it's right for him to be pursuing it.
But is the Linux kernel the right forum for politics? Do you feel that it's a bad idea to involve the kernel in politics -- a slippery slope in which the software itself becomes a political pawn? Or would you say that the kernel -- and all software -- has already become a political pawn, and Cox's actions are entirely justified given that free software's existence is under increasing threat?
MT: I'll try to avoid involving the kernel in political questions.
11) Sound drivers
by BlowCat
The sound drivers are very poorly written. A lot of code is duplicated. Not all drivers support some ioctls. Every driver has its peculiarities, e.g. some drivers reset dsp to mono, 8bit on DSP_RESET, some don't. Some support /dev/audio, some don't.
Not having ALSA in 2.4.x means no good sound support in the stable kernel for another year of two. Do you plan to integrate ALSA into the 2.4 branch? If yes, will it happen after it's done on the 2.5 branch?
MT: I do not plan to integrate ALSA on 2.4.x.
12) How do you plan to handle the big companies?
by hansendc
As all of us know, many large companies are putting large amounts of resources toward Linux. 2.4 will continue to be important to these companies because it is the version currently being shipped with the distributions, and will continue to be shipped for at east a year or two.
How are you going to deal with the submissions from people like IBM and SGI who are going to want to make significant changes to 2.4?
MT: If their changes are non intrusive and I agree with the way they are coded, sure I'll apply them. Why not?
13) Stability vs Features
by azaroth42
How do you intend to decide which new patches should be added to 2.4, the stable tree, and which are not to be included as being more appropriate to just 2.5, the unstable development tree? For example, do new or updated device drivers rank more highly than VM updates?
MT: I'm really trying to avoid new features which are intrusive: Those ones are for 2.5.
New features which are non intrusive are OK.
14) Threads
by Exmet Paff Daxx
What are your thoughts about threads? Specifically, do you support Linus's "Context of Execution" generality with clone() or are you going to focus more on plain POSIX pthreads compliance?
Any chance of Alan Cox's multi-threaded post-mortem debugging patch which dumps multiple core files for each lightweight process (LWP) making it into the kernel? How about support for post mortem debugging of multithreaded core files in general (right now there is zero support).
Any rants about threading as a general topic would work.
MT: I do support Linus's "Context of Execution" idea, yes.
About Alan's multi-threaded post-mortem debugging patch: I haven't read it yet. But I might apply it.
15) Age a question?
by debrain
If what I've read is correct, you are the youngest maintainer for this kernel. Do you have any feelings on a social level, regarding much of the peer review and critism will come from people who are older? (and very possibly set in their ways, and potentially intimidating)
MT: I don't have any feelings wrt age. I just hope that older people don't take that into account.
16) Expectations
by MikeBabcock
In the time you've been aware of or been using Linux, how have your expectations for what it ought to be or eventually become changed? I know in the time I've used it I'd never expected it, for example, to become a desktop OS but rather a good server or embedded product. What did you expect when you first started with Linux, and what do you expect now?
MT: I expected it to be a server system when I started using it.
Now I expect it to be a Unix system which can work in a lot of different environments. :)
17) Hit by a bus
by moonboy
I'd hate to stray from the status quo where standard interview questions are concerned, so in keeping with it, I ask:
What's it like knowing that, if (God forbid) Linus and Alan were hit by a bus, you might be "The Man"?
Hey, someone had to ask.
MT: I don't know, dude.
18) Re:Do you use a distribution?
by bfree
To rewrite the above question the way I'd like it asked:
What operating systems and platforms do you personally use and which ones do you also use (and why)?
MT: I use Linux for work and sometimes I use Windows to play games.
Do you run a common environment on all your machines (in as far as possible) or do you run different things in different places and which environments do you prefer for what?
MT: I do run Linux on all of my machines. I like to take a look at other OSes when I have time...
What development tools do you use (especially for the kernel), would you do anything differebtly for the kernel (like make it compile with other compilers) if you could (or will you) and would you like to (or will you) place the Linux stable kernel into CVS or another version control system?
MT: I use vi for editting source code and gcc to compile the kernel. :)
No, I'm not going to put the kernel in any kind of version control system because I have to know what goes into the kernel.
One thing which I'm going to do, and which matters, is the use of STP in each -pre release of the kernel.
I hope the SGI guys can get STP stable and working well soon.
Do you feel any personal preferences for anything might actually be in anyway reflected in your work as the stable kernel maintainer?
MT: No.
Do you have a good lawyer?
MT: No. Actually, I don't have a lawyer at all and I hope I'll never have to use one on Linux related issues.
Are you planing on travelling to the U.S.A.> (for all I know you live there, excuse my ignorance:-)? [Note: Marcelo lives in Brazil.]
MT: No. I may go to some congress, though. Not sure yet, though.
Have you experience dealing with politicians, business leaders and large groups and do you see this as a part of your job description? MT: I do not have experience dealing with politicians, business leaders or large groups. I see that as part of my job description, yes. I hope I can learn that with time...
When you stop maintaing the stable kernel, what would you like people to be saying about your reign?
MT: That it works well. ;)
FP?
Um. How old is this guy?
Linux is dying
Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered Linux community when last month IDC confirmed that Linux accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that Linux has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Linux is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by falling dead last in the recent Kreskin test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Linux's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Linux faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Linux because Linux is dying. Things are looking very bad for Linux. As many of us are already aware, Linux continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. Mandrakeis the most endangered of them all.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
Debian leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of Debian. How many users of Corel are there? Let's see. The number of Debian versus Corel posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Corel users. Redhat posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of Corel posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of Redhat. Arecent article put Mandrake at about 80 percent of the Linux market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 Mandrake users. This is consistent with the number of Mandrake Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek,abysmal sales and so on,Mandrake went out of business and was taken over by SuSE who sell another troubled Linux. Now SuSE is also dead, its corpse turned over to another charnel house.
All major surveys show that Linux has steadily declined in market share. Linux is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Linux is survive at all it will be among Linux hobbyist dabblers. Linux continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Linux is dead.
Linux is dying
THERE IS A WEB OF HATE THAT HAS BEEN WOVEN ABOUT US! It has us bound and gagged, and we appear to be almost done struggling against it -- ready to give up and await the final and fatal sting, which will end our race for good. How is it that this great people have been overcome? How is it that we have had our strength turned to weakness and our hopes turned to bitter despair? At the end of the Second World War our nation was the strongest on earth and perfectly capable of withstanding any invasion by any other country. Yet within 20 years after the close of that great world conflict we were defeated from within. Our borders were opened to invaders from without and our military was commanded to ignore the invasion. Our society was dismantled and alien cultures were put in the place of honor for our children. Let's look at how this web of hate is held in place, and what techniques are being used to hold White Americans in their passive state as they wait for their extermination.
You are FORBIDDEN to think in racial terms! Think of it. In the United States of America your government and those who control it forbid you to think in terms of White racial identity. At the same time you are not only allowed to think of the racial identity of Nonwhites, you are commanded to do so! Such an outrage should bring White America to arms, eager to overthrow the villains who have brought such a situation to pass. But our White brothers are so afraid of losing the bit of comfort that is offered to them in compensation for their silence, that they are just letting it happen unopposed. If they were able to back away from their television propaganda drug for a while and look at what was happening they would become angry enough to rise up and right the wrong that has occurred in this country.
All-White organizations and institutions have been attacked and/or outlawed. At one time, all pro sports were all-White. Golf courses had all-White membership in their clubs. There were all-White businesses, movies and schools. Many Whites went through their days without ever seeing a Nonwhite face. Today that appears somehow wrong in most people's eyes. Wrong, not because these people have thought it out, and come to the conclusion that it is inherently wrong to have a White society, as America always did, but wrong because that is what their media outlets have told them is so. If they used their heads to think for themselves they would realize that Japan is all-Asian. (It is over 99% native born, Asian, Japanese!) Where is the outcry for Japan to diversify? Where are the outcries because that nation is racist? There are none because it is not a White nation. Only White nations can be racists according to the enemies of our people who have taken over our media and our government. Only White organizations can be evil, merely for existing.
At the same time, all-Nonwhite institutions are completely supported, many with tax dollars, or tax-free status. "A mind is a terrible thing to waste." Do you remember that advertisement slogan for the Negro College fund? Miss Black America, Black alumni associations, Black faculty and staff associations at nearly all universities, are all strongly promoted by our government and by those who are fighting for the destruction of Whites and their nation. There are Black, Hispanic, and Asian groups, which are subgroups of all political organizations and nearly all religious organizations. Police and Fire departments often have fully sanctioned racially Nonwhite organizations. All of these organizations and associations exclude Whites and are still viewed as not only acceptable, but as laudable! This, while White organizations of a similar type are banned, and even the discussion of them is considered taboo.
As our White organizations and institutions have been taken from us, we have been slandered at the same time. In the media, nearly all White cross-racial crime is given national coverage. Whenever some White heterosexual male criminal chooses to attack a Nonwhite or homosexual, the media makes a complete circus of the coverage. All of the negative details are brought out that would make the White race look bad. If the perpetrator has any racial awareness at all, that is highlighted as a factor in the crime. If the crime was brutal, all of the little details are laid out for the nation to view over and over again, until each of them is burned into their minds. At the same time, no detail that might explain the crime from any other perspective is allowed to be presented. If the White perpetrator was a criminal, drug addict or otherwise shown to be an outcast from White society already, that is covered up by the media. If the Nonwhite victim was a criminal also or otherwise disreputable, that fact will never be brought up in the national coverage. The net result is that the White race has been unjustly painted with a criminal, hateful brush, and that process will generate hate in the Nonwhite community for Whites, as well as self hate in Whites. Both of these things were intended by those who own the media, and that is why they covered the crimes in the way that they did.
Contrast that with the fact that very little of Nonwhite cross-racial crime is given national coverage. Nonwhites attack and brutally murder Whites many times more often than the reverse happens. Per capita the murder rate for Whites is one tenth that of Blacks. Rape and burglary are also disproportionally high for the Nonwhites in our society. But that is nothing when compared with the extremely lopsided numbers for cross-racial crime. Blacks are 22 times as likely to kill a White as a White is to kill a Black, according to the FBI figures (which are distorted by including Hispanic minorities as being White for counting White perpetrators of murder, but not as victims). While at least 22 Whites are murdered for every Black in cross-racial crimes, our media almost never mentions the crimes committed by the Nonwhites. If it does mention one of them, it is seldom mentioned as a racial crime, even if the perpetrator was clearly anti-White. Unlike White cross-racial crime, if it is brought up at all, stories about Nonwhite cross-racial crime are quickly ended. They never drag on and on, night after night. The net results of cross-racial crime coverage in this nation is to make the Whites appear to be the racial haters, attacking other races, while Nonwhites are perceived to be the victims. The reality is just the opposite of what is being portrayed in the media. In other words, if you gather your information about what is going on in our country from the media you will be worse off than if you remained totally ignorant on the subject of race crime. You will have the idea that the opposite of what is really happening is what is the truth. You will be worse than ignorant, because you will not know you are uninformed. You will think that you know what is happening and therefore your natural curiosity will be dampened. (Why research something that you already know about?)
The way the subject of race is handled in our society today is another strand of the web of hate. The White race alternately is said not to exist, or it does exist but it is the most evil of all races and it has always been oppressive to other races. If you argue that the White race has done more to feed the Nonwhite peoples of the earth than any other race, then you are told that the White race does not exist. If you point out the tremendous number of doctors Whites have sent to Nonwhite countries, and the enormous amount of medicine that Whites have created, paid for, and then donated to Nonwhite nations, you will be faced with a blank look and the question, "What White race?" If on the other hand you point out that there are Black organizations, and Hispanic organizations, and even Asian organizations which promote their racial people over and above all others, you are told that the White race has always oppressed these peoples and they therefore must organize in order to fight that oppression. So, we do not exist, however we are oppressive. There is no White race, but it is evil nonetheless. Such a lying sham would be impossible to impose upon even an idiot, let alone an intelligent and powerful people, without something going on that is confusing the issue greatly. What is that source of confusion? The lying media of course is that source. White folks expose themselves to the lies everyday from the media, which they mistakenly believe is there to inform them. When you trust the word of a liar, you are going to be deceived, ill informed, and ignorant on whatever subjects that he talks to you about.
As the White race is alternately bounced back and forth between non-existence and being slandered, the Nonwhite races are said to be oppressed, benevolent and honorable. As presented by the media, they have no faults and they should be promoted ahead of the White race in all matters. Effectively we are being told that Nonwhites are superior to Whites and that Whites have only reached their level of technical expertise and high standard of living by holding down the superior Nonwhite races. The net psychological effect of this is to drain the energy from any pro-White cause by making the very idea of being pro-White and attempting to maintain your White nation appear to be nothing but pure oppression of the poor, innocent Nonwhite people who are today invading our land. This strand of the web of hate is very powerful. A race of people can only survive as long as they have lands in which to breed with each other. When those lands are gone, the race will be gone. Asians, Blacks and Hispanics are in no danger of losing their homelands. Only the White race is in danger of extermination from this deceitful manner of attack. Only White nations are expected to treat other races as being superior and to give up their lands, heritage and future to other peoples.
In our media and our schools the accomplishments of the White race are always diminished, and never specifically credited to the White race. When a great White inventor or scientist is mentioned in school or in any media outlet, he is never called out as a great White inventor, or a great White scientist. The Whites who accomplish things are talked about as if they were race neutral. The White race is never praised for what it has done. It is almost as if what they accomplished is a given, like the sky and the ground. These cars, airplanes, computers, telephones, heart transplants and other miracles of today, originally created by the White race, are great but who cares what race created them? There is nothing in our schools or our media that will promote the idea that White people have anything to be proud of. There is nothing there, from which to create emotional glue, by which we can join our people together into a racial whole.
At the very same time that our media and our schools are crushing the historical basis for White pride, they ensure that the accomplishments of all Nonwhite races are always amplified and specifically credited to the respective Nonwhite race. Our children know the race of Martin Luther King, Jr. and George Washington Carver. Beyond that, the children know many things that are simply not true. While Black Africans never invented a written language, a wheel or even woven cloth, our children are taught that they invented mathematics and many other things, things that never even crossed a Black mind before the White man introduced the Blacks to them. It is not enough to merely distort reality, these web weavers must actually create falsehoods to brainwash our children with. And because White parents are so wrapped up in the web of hate themselves, they never take the time to find out what lies their children are learning in school, and then to give their children the facts which would expose the lies. Today's parents went through the same process in school, so they probably would not be able to even identify the lies themselves anymore. The Nonwhites, on the other hand, are bolstered by this process. They have their racial awareness nurtured and watered by constant referral to their race's accomplishments. They are made to feel special because of whom they are. They grow proud and strong, ready to do battle for their race.
So, we have discussed the following aspects of the web of hate:
All-White organizations and institutions have been attacked and/or outlawed.
All-Nonwhite institutions are completely supported, many with tax dollars, or tax free status.
Nearly all White cross-racial crime is given national coverage.
Nonwhite cross-racial crime, which is far more prevalent, is given very little national coverage.
The White race is said not to exist, and yet to be evil, racist, and oppressive.
All Nonwhite races are said to be oppressed, benevolent and honorable.
The accomplishments of the White race are always diminished, and never specifically credited to the White race.
The accomplishments of all Nonwhite races are always amplified and specifically credited to the respective Nonwhite race.
All of these things can have only one purpose. It cannot be altruism, for altruism would be as interested in saving the White race as in promoting other races. It cannot be love for your fellow man, when destroying the United States of America will harm far more people than it will help. So, what is the purpose of what is going on?
The entire process is completely disruptive. If you are being disruptive in a classroom at least in the ones that I have attended or taught in, you will either have to stop or you will be ejected. Why? Because disruptive conduct makes constructive learning impossible. In society, terrorism is effective because it disrupts daily routine and makes people feel uncomfortable with the way things are. Disruption will always harm the society or organization that it is occurring in. If you wish to destroy any organization or country, merely create effective disruption and you will achieve your wish. That is what our enemies are doing to America today.
Nothing positive can come of suppressing Whites and promoting Nonwhites in America. The only thing that comes from these tactics is the destruction or our great nation, and the extermination of our race. As the Third World people move into our land and become the majority in it, this country will become a Third World county, with the associate standard of living. This simple fact must be faced, if our people are to act in time to save themselves. But with the web of hate wrapped tightly around them they are going to just sit still and wait for the final sting of extermination.
It is up to us to break that web. We can do it with information, intelligently presented, and emotionally presented. To begin with, we must insist that there be all-White organizations and institutions at least everywhere there are Nonwhite ones. We must spread the truth about the fact that the vast majority of cross-racial (hate) crime is done to Whites not by Whites. We must spread the obvious and scientific truth that the White race does exist, and the historical truth that the White race has done more to help other races than any other race. We are not hate filled oppressors. Also we must point out that other races have recently done far more to harm Whites than the reverse, and it is time that it is acknowledged. We also must see that our race is given the credit that it is due for its great accomplishments, and to the degree that is appropriate to their quality. When you speak of walking on the moon, it must stand head and shoulders above anything any other race has come close to accomplishing. Giving credit where credit is due is a fine ideal, but it will always make the White race look very good if you do it fairly and that is exactly what we must insist upon.
Once this is done, it will break many of the strands of the web of hate that is holding our people today. Then we can begin to rebuild this nation as it was intended to be by our forefathers, and as it was when I was born in the early 1950s. The only real obstacle to fixing what the disrupters have done is the web of hate wrapped around our people. Our task is to awaken these White folks to the fact that the problem really exists. One of the great methods of doing that is to pass around David Duke's book, My Awakening. I am hearing about people buying the book in quantity and passing it out to their friends. It sounds like a mighty good idea to me. That book is like a sharp pair of scissors that will cut through the web of hate like a hot knife through butter. It is time to act. Waiting is no longer an option. What could we be waiting for anyway? It is not going to get better, until we act.
America is worth it. The White race is worth it. Can you say that the Founding Fathers were fighting for anything more important or holy than that which we are forced to fight for today? Their existence was not threatened, only their freedom. We have both our freedom, and our existence threatened by the weavers of the web of hate. And we had better fight back with all of our might or we will have caused both the blood of our ancestors and the existence of our descendants to have been sacrificed for absolutely nothing, except the agenda of our enemies. Can you live with that? I certainly hope not!
1. American Renaissance November, 1990; The New Racism: Excluding Whites by William Robertson Boggs
or
tags or closing brackets? I mean come on, the formatting errors are really annoying and could only take 5 minutes to find and fix.
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
Can CmdrTaco kiss my ASS?
Note:This will be modded as low as possible and parent will be modded WAY up
Slashdot, the site where everything's made up and the points don't matter
Jon, what is that liquid goo inside Vienna Sausage cans?