Posted by
chrisd
on from the what's-a-nice-coder-like-you-doing-in-a-place-like-this dept.
twigman writes "MSDN has an interview with Ximian CTO Miguel de Icaza about Mono and past Ximian projects. It's a surprisingly objective discussion, definitely worth a read." Of course we're not surprised Miguel is objective...
Re:Give or take?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
The java combo refers to Sun's inability to seperate their API, their virtual ISA, and their language.
Each is a seperate entity, but they'd like you to believe that its all one unit. Of course, being a Java programmers, you did believe that. Good boy. Don't think for yourself; we here at Sun Marketing (tm) know far better what you should think.
Another repeated posting!
by
Yakman
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Ximian has been doing a good job balancing financial practicality with free software ideoligy. They make a GPL'd PIM (Evolution) and sell a proprietary interface to a proprietary server software. They have to make money, right? Exchange Connector only hurts the people who are already using Exchange.
The idea of using the.NET standard to create a robust component architecture is a pretty good idea. Microsoft is betting the farm on.NET. It is going to succeed. What is the harm in having a GPL implimentation of it? Even if it doesn't help *IX interoperate with the MS world, GNOME (and everybody in the GNU world) get a seemingly good technology. Morover, having Mono will allow the millions of.NET developers to make GPL stuff in the evenings without having to climb a steep learning curve.
Re:Miguel is the smart fellow
by
jonathan_ingram
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· Score: 3, Insightful
Are you sure you haven't cut and pasted this from a discussion before KDE 2 came out?
CORBA is a nice idea, but grossly over designed. DCOP + KParts work exceptionally well, as evidenced by the ease with which they have been extending and developing Konqueror this last year. The KDE team are open to using CORBA, but only once GNOME have shown that it is an actual viable solution.
Multi-language support is already good in KDE 2, and will be better in KDE 3.
GNOME may be the best desktop alternative in the long term, but it certainly isn't in the short term, and I have my doubts about the medium term as well.
just imagine what it would do for acceptance of Linux if a company worked with MS to produce a reliable up-to-date version of Word for Linux
The GNU/Linux system benefits little from "acceptance". The important thing is that the software be free. If there are ten people using it and it is Free, then it is better than if ten million are using it and it is non-free.
I know this post is redundant/offtopic/flamebait. But somebody needs to get a clue. If all you know about GNU is what you read on linux.com.net.org.mil.gov, spend some time on http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/. GNU is not "Linux". If Microsoft developed a Free version of Word, that would be awful nice. But it would have to compete with real programs, like emacs/vi/OpenOffice/abiword, programs with an established userbase, longstanding reputation, and 90% fewer NSA backdoors.
Re:"GNU Values"
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Insightful
Open Source, Free Software. C'mon, it's just word. I wonder how many hours Richard Stallman have been using writing letters bitching about stupid words.
Now, releasing software under GPL is a piece of action. And Ximian have given a lot of lines with code under the gpl to the free software world. But this is a company, and they pay people. Therefore they need a way to pay their programmers after the capital is used up, and if they can do that with open sourc... eh free software, that's great. But if they can't manage to do that, it's still a good thing that they use 90% of their time writing free software, and 10% of their time writing propritary software.
Open Source, Free Software. C'mon, it's just word.
Kike, Jew. C'mon, they're just words.
The thing about words is that they represent thought processes and attitudes.
Stallman want's to get people to change their attitudes to software. He uses the term Free Software to represent the attitude he wants to people to adopt.
Open Source is a different symbol for a different attitude. There are similarities in the attitude, but they are not the same.
-- Yours Sincerely, Michael.
We could have had a working Mono two years ago.
by
mj6798
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
I'm glad to see that there are open source projects based on a language and runtime that supports a component architecture and runtime safety from the ground up. I think a Linux desktop environment and services platform based on C#/CLR will be so much better, more efficient, and more robust than the current systems based on plain C or C++. This has long been overdue.
What I am disappointed about is that the Linux community could have started on this several years ago. While there are some cosmetic differences between C#/CLR and Java/JVM, the object models and performance of the two languages and runtimes are essentially the same. And there actually are already several open source, high performance Java implementations already.
Even today, I think it still makes more sense to use something like GNU gcj or Intel's Open Runtime and maybe the existing native Gnome widgets (for which there are already Java bindings). But Mono is obviously not going to go that route. Too bad.
Re:Miguel is the smart fellow
by
Metrol
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
KDE's DCOP and KParts are rather incomplete imitations of CORBA.
First off, I'm not a developer. At best I just read a fair amount about what folks are doing. One of the things I personally found interesting about this interview was Miguel listing problems with Bonobo and CORBA that sounded a LOT like the reasons KDE doesn't use those technologies. Essentially that bindings such as CORBA are like swatting a fly with a hammer for desktop apps, thus a simpler approach was taken with things like DCOP.
Again, I'm not in the trenches, but from an observers point of view it seems that Gnome is just needing that next set of bindings to be developed sometime later over and over again. Everything was going to be better with CORBA and Bonobo linking everything. Now that's all the wrong approach, and Mono is needed. I may be way of base here, it just seems like it's the "bindings to be developed" of the month club.
On the other hand, KDE made the call to move things to DCOP a while ago and they seem to be sticking to their guns on it. The developers are extending where needed, but leaving the core intact as it's doing what they intended from the onset. I honestly don't know if this is a good or bad thing in practice. It seems like a more reasoned approach, and it's certainly produced a wonderful desktop environment.
Early into next year both projects are looking to have major releases. I guess we'll see which approach provides the payoff of a more robust environment that developers prefer to work on.
-- The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
Ximian Gnome vs. KDE
by
ACK!!
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
I have always been torn over the whole KDE vs GNOME thing.
1. I like the look and feel of the GTK, GTK++ widgets better than the QT stuff.
2. KDE despite all the customizing tools available still feels far too Windoze like for my taste. Ximian Gnome especially with the Doorman option to do a CDE style destop is easily more Unix-like for old timers.
On the other hand:
1. KDE is more mature and offers a friendly widget set for programmers. I have heard more than a few programmers say that QT is much easier to deal with than GTK.
2. The maturity factor jumps out at you when you look at the Control Panel for KDE and the wealth of good solid apps available from the QT side of the programming fence.
I still use Ximian because quite frankly I like the way it looks and feels. Sure, I keep updating my system and hate the fact that my gnome splash screeen comes up with gnome-question icons because of a bug (it is in Bugzilla) but I love the way Nautilus lets me use my home directory as my desktop at the push of a button.
-- ACK/ak/ interj. 2. [from the comic strip "Bloom County"] An exclamation of surprised disgust, esp. i
I don't follow. If you wrote an application on Win3 without OLE, why shouldn't it compile today?
GNOME != Ximian
by
ambrosius27
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
"Again, I'm not in the trenches, but from an observers point of view it seems that Gnome is just needing that next set of bindings to be developed sometime later over and over again. "
GNOME *is* sticking to its guns with CORBA and Bonobo. The developers are actively working on the Bonobo component model and Orbit2, and they plan on using them for the forseeable future. They're actually quite excited at the possibilities these tools are bringing to them and their desktop environment. From what I've seen on the lists, the developers have been hard at work ironing out wrinkles in the inproc/out-of-proc components and are happy with the speed of Orbit.
Now, I will concede that you're right in that *Miguel* has moved on. Even before Bonobo had fully matured (that's happening with GNOME2 development after the GNOME 1.4 experimentation), Miguel decided that the.NET framework is the way to go. I say, good for him! If Miguel and Ximian can make MONO into a beautiful development platform that is better than Bonobo, that's great! If that does happen (and it's going to be at least year before we can tell how it's doing), GNOME will probably be happy to start using MONO and employ Bonobo as a bridge to the new platform. Until then, GNOME is quite happy with Bonobo.
Jonathan Ingram posted in a thread that if Orbit really proves great, KDE would be happy to use it. In the meantime, KDE is using their own solution (which they like quite well) and will let GNOME do the Orbit development. You can compare GNOME's stance with MONO in the same way: wait and see.
Remember Miguel != GNOME and even Ximian != GNOME. Both are big players in GNOME, but GNOME is larger than them. Cheers!
Slashdot Mirror
The java combo refers to Sun's inability to seperate their API, their virtual ISA, and their language.
Each is a seperate entity, but they'd like you to believe that its all one unit. Of course, being a Java programmers, you did believe that. Good boy. Don't think for yourself; we here at Sun Marketing (tm) know far better what you should think.
Blah blah.. standard crap about reading your own site :)
Ximian has been doing a good job balancing financial practicality with free software ideoligy. They make a GPL'd PIM (Evolution) and sell a proprietary interface to a proprietary server software. They have to make money, right? Exchange Connector only hurts the people who are already using Exchange.
.NET standard to create a robust component architecture is a pretty good idea. Microsoft is betting the farm on .NET. It is going to succeed. What is the harm in having a GPL implimentation of it? Even if it doesn't help *IX interoperate with the MS world, GNOME (and everybody in the GNU world) get a seemingly good technology. Morover, having Mono will allow the millions of .NET developers to make GPL stuff in the evenings without having to climb a steep learning curve.
The idea of using the
Are you sure you haven't cut and pasted this from a discussion before KDE 2 came out?
CORBA is a nice idea, but grossly over designed. DCOP + KParts work exceptionally well, as evidenced by the ease with which they have been extending and developing Konqueror this last year. The KDE team are open to using CORBA, but only once GNOME have shown that it is an actual viable solution.
Multi-language support is already good in KDE 2, and will be better in KDE 3.
GNOME may be the best desktop alternative in the long term, but it certainly isn't in the short term, and I have my doubts about the medium term as well.
-- Help Digitise the Public Domain at DP.
I know this post is redundant/offtopic/flamebait. But somebody needs to get a clue. If all you know about GNU is what you read on linux.com.net.org.mil.gov, spend some time on http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/. GNU is not "Linux". If Microsoft developed a Free version of Word, that would be awful nice. But it would have to compete with real programs, like emacs/vi/OpenOffice/abiword, programs with an established userbase, longstanding reputation, and 90% fewer NSA backdoors.
What I am disappointed about is that the Linux community could have started on this several years ago. While there are some cosmetic differences between C#/CLR and Java/JVM, the object models and performance of the two languages and runtimes are essentially the same. And there actually are already several open source, high performance Java implementations already.
Even today, I think it still makes more sense to use something like GNU gcj or Intel's Open Runtime and maybe the existing native Gnome widgets (for which there are already Java bindings). But Mono is obviously not going to go that route. Too bad.
KDE's DCOP and KParts are rather incomplete imitations of CORBA.
First off, I'm not a developer. At best I just read a fair amount about what folks are doing. One of the things I personally found interesting about this interview was Miguel listing problems with Bonobo and CORBA that sounded a LOT like the reasons KDE doesn't use those technologies. Essentially that bindings such as CORBA are like swatting a fly with a hammer for desktop apps, thus a simpler approach was taken with things like DCOP.
Again, I'm not in the trenches, but from an observers point of view it seems that Gnome is just needing that next set of bindings to be developed sometime later over and over again. Everything was going to be better with CORBA and Bonobo linking everything. Now that's all the wrong approach, and Mono is needed. I may be way of base here, it just seems like it's the "bindings to be developed" of the month club.
On the other hand, KDE made the call to move things to DCOP a while ago and they seem to be sticking to their guns on it. The developers are extending where needed, but leaving the core intact as it's doing what they intended from the onset. I honestly don't know if this is a good or bad thing in practice. It seems like a more reasoned approach, and it's certainly produced a wonderful desktop environment.
Early into next year both projects are looking to have major releases. I guess we'll see which approach provides the payoff of a more robust environment that developers prefer to work on.
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
I have always been torn over the whole KDE vs GNOME thing.
1. I like the look and feel of the GTK, GTK++ widgets better than the QT stuff.
2. KDE despite all the customizing tools available still feels far too Windoze like for my taste. Ximian Gnome especially with the Doorman option to do a CDE style destop is easily more Unix-like for old timers.
On the other hand:
1. KDE is more mature and offers a friendly widget set for programmers. I have heard more than a few programmers say that QT is much easier to deal with than GTK.
2. The maturity factor jumps out at you when you look at the Control Panel for KDE and the wealth of good solid apps available from the QT side of the programming fence.
I still use Ximian because quite frankly I like the way it looks and feels. Sure, I keep updating my system and hate the fact that my gnome splash screeen comes up with gnome-question icons because of a bug (it is in Bugzilla) but I love the way Nautilus lets me use my home directory as my desktop at the push of a button.
ACK
I don't follow. If you wrote an application on Win3 without OLE, why shouldn't it compile today?
"Again, I'm not in the trenches, but from an observers point of view it seems that Gnome is just needing that next set of bindings to be developed sometime later over and over again. "
.NET framework is the way to go. I say, good for him! If Miguel and Ximian can make MONO into a beautiful development platform that is better than Bonobo, that's great! If that does happen (and it's going to be at least year before we can tell how it's doing), GNOME will probably be happy to start using MONO and employ Bonobo as a bridge to the new platform. Until then, GNOME is quite happy with Bonobo.
GNOME *is* sticking to its guns with CORBA and Bonobo. The developers are actively working on the Bonobo component model and Orbit2, and they plan on using them for the forseeable future. They're actually quite excited at the possibilities these tools are bringing to them and their desktop environment. From what I've seen on the lists, the developers have been hard at work ironing out wrinkles in the inproc/out-of-proc components and are happy with the speed of Orbit.
Now, I will concede that you're right in that *Miguel* has moved on. Even before Bonobo had fully matured (that's happening with GNOME2 development after the GNOME 1.4 experimentation), Miguel decided that the
Jonathan Ingram posted in a thread that if Orbit really proves great, KDE would be happy to use it. In the meantime, KDE is using their own solution (which they like quite well) and will let GNOME do the Orbit development. You can compare GNOME's stance with MONO in the same way: wait and see.
Remember Miguel != GNOME and even Ximian != GNOME. Both are big players in GNOME, but GNOME is larger than them. Cheers!
~~~~~~~~~
dissertus scribendo latine videri volo.