Posted by
michael
on from the promising-news dept.
TheSync writes: "The BBC reports in an article that the Mars Odyssey spacecraft has detected large deposits of hydrogen at high latitudes using its neutron spectrometer. This may indicate significant water ice on the surface of Mars!"
Terraforming?
by
TheFlyingGoat
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
This, when combined with the earlier news regarding the eroding of the polar ice caps, would more easily allow some type of terraforming on Mars to occur. Drop in a bunch of plants that don't suck up much water and let them convert the Co2 to Oxygen. Now I wonder if it would actually work?:/
-- You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
Re:Terraforming?
by
Liquid(TJ)
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
It may be possible to make a shirtsleeve atmosphere that's heavier than the planet's natural atmosphere, then fill up a crator or other hole with it. Then put a small base at the bottom.
There's stuff to worry about, like erosion and weather's effects, but as far as I know, no one's decided it wouldn't work.
Re:What's the signifigance....
by
Spamalamadingdong
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
The significance may be that the neutron spectrometer is working.;)
Really, the significance depends on who you're talking to. To the geochemists, I'll bet it means that there are probably mineral formations being made by percolation of soda-water through rocks (place a CO2 glacier on top of an H2O glacier and you'll get things dissolving into each other near the bottom where the pressures get up there). To the xenobiologists, it means that they've got a place to look for life. To the planetary scientists, they've got something against which to test their models of atmospheric/hydrospheric formation and evolution. To the Mars Society, it's a guarantee of the raw materials for rocket fuel, agriculture and an eventual technological society on the Red Planet.
Colonization isn't as far away as it seems
by
Tattva
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
With this information, we have all the technology we need to permanently colonize mars at a reasonable price. Take the south pole science stations: self-contained, self heated, comfortable places to live where the only outside resources they utilized were gravity, air, and snow. Mars has all 3, but the air would need a little more work. With hydroponics, solar panels and limited chemical lab and machine shop capabilities, a self-sustaining colony is quite reasonable. Buckminster Fuller's geodesic domes are incredibly efficient enclosures, and could probably be constructed with polymers created from materials readily available in the ground.
The only thing I am not sure about is iron, copper, and other metals deposits. Polymers replace the need for these in many cases, but not all. Anyone know the mineral layout of Mars? I imagine it is like every unmined region on the Earth, incredibly rich in easily-retrievable resources. Just think of Austria's Tallar gold mines (the largest gold strike in history and the origin of the word "dollar.") or South America's Potassi silver mines (the largest silver strike.)
The only question is whether colonizing Mars is something humanity wants to do. The return on investment on Earth in economic terms would probably be close to nil due to the cost of transport. On the other hand, making sure all our eggs aren't in one basket sounds like a reasonable self-preservation strategy.
-- personal attacks hurt, especially when deserved
Re:Colonization isn't as far away as it seems
by
mlosh
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
>The only thing I am not sure about is iron, copper, and other metals deposits
I am not an planatary geologist, but it would seem that Mars has a lot of Iron. It's not rust-colored for nothing!:-)
The book _Red Mars_ assumes that the colonists can use local iron and magnesium for construction materials and that many materials can be chemically fabricated.
Interesting....
by
Fenris2001
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
The article states that the evidence of hydrogen was found in the soil near the polar caps - not unexpected, but nonetheless interesting.
There is overwhelming evidence that water flowed on Mars in the geologically recent past. The main question for those studying Mars is, Where did that water go?
We've known since the Mariner probes that there is a large reserve of water in the ice caps at either pole, but this reserve is not large enough to account for all of the erosion features of Mars. If, as has been suggested recently, there was once a giant ocean covering the northern hemisphere of Mars, then there is a LOT of water missing from Mars.
If, as has been suggested, there is a significant amount of water adsorbed into the soil of Mars, and as these results seem to indicate, this could account for the missing water.
Other theories suggest that the absence of a Martian magnetosphere may explain the lack of water on Mars - without a shield from a planetary magnetic field, the solar wind would dissociate large amounts of water vapor in the atmosphere - raising the amount of free oxygen. The hydrogen would be lost into space, especially on a planet as small as Mars.
Why is this important? Because some of the smae processes are going on here on Earth - water is lost through photo-ionization and conversion to crustal rocks. The amount of water vapor in our atmosphere is a very important factor in global warming and weather patterns. So, by studying another planet, we can learn about our own. Very neat stuff.
Re:Interesting....
by
Cally
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Other theories suggest that the absence of a Martian magnetosphere may explain the lack of water on Mars - without a shield from a planetary magnetic field, the solar wind would dissociate large amounts of water vapor in the atmosphere - raising the amount of free oxygen. The hydrogen would be lost into space, especially on a planet as small as Mars.
Aha! Yes! But!:)
Mars Observer has found, firstly, evidence that a substantial (possibly planetary-scale) magnet field existed in geological time - in the form of fossilised magnetic fields, interestingly in stripes of alternating polarity, like on earth either side of crustal spreading zones such as the mid-Atlantic ridge, which implies a tectonic conveyor built was going for a while early in Martian history;
and secondly, regional mini-magnetospheres, big enough to have effects on the density of the atmosphere and (IIRC) weather patterns. (Haven't got an URL to hand, but it would have been somewhere on the JPL Global Surveyor site.
It'll be interesting to see what the regional distribution of this hydrogen looks like, once higher resolution data comes out. Er, in.
--
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
It seems to me that if we are going to find signs of life anywhere on Mars it would be in the ice caps. Spores have been known to survive thousands of years on earth, perhaps we could find some form of microbe still frozen in the ice that could even survive if thawed. It may even be possible for these life form to still thrive (Volcanic activity creating liquid water beneath the caps?). I believe Nasa should make it a priority to have their next surveyor gather samples of the ice for analysis.
-- I stole this Sig
Re:What's the signifigance....
by
oo7tushar
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Huge significance. All the talk of global warmings and temperature snaps means humans are more likely to start heading towards space soon. In any eventuality, we're going to head out to the rest of the Universe soon (next 100 to 200 years at the latest) and need to find viable new homes.
Having Mars available will give us a boost in terms of learning how to teraform and how to populate new planets. It's also an untouched resource in terms of natural resources and learning experiences.
I for one want us to last for a very long time and being stuck one planet is not the way to do it. Thus populating mars is the next logical step.
Of course (now the rant portion is over), we need water. Water would allow us to irrigate and grow the food that is native to us. Everything on our planet needs water to survive (as in everything we need) and it makes sense that we would live on a planet with water.
Economic use doesn't need a colony
by
Spamalamadingdong
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
The return on investment on Earth in economic terms would probably be close to nil due to the cost of transport.
Yeah, down on Earth surface you're right. But suppose you need large amounts of stuff in orbit, or on the Moon? Mars' smaller gravity well might actually make it cheaper to ship water and such from there than to haul it up from the ground on ol' Terra; if I recall correctly Olympus Mons is effectively outside the Martian atmosphere, so you could build a mass-driver on the slope and launch almost directly to orbit from there without so much as an Estes motor (you'd need some kind of apogee kick or it would fall back). Tossing stuff electrically vs. using rockets might be cheap enough to make it worth going to Mars to get the stuff to toss in the first place.
Colonization, oops
by
cornjones
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Significant water-ice deposits easily accessible from the surface would make it much more likely that life existed at some stage on Mars.
Damn keyboard shortcuts!... sorry about the double post.
Aren't we more interested in finding water to give us a more reasonable hope of colonizing Mars? once we get a few thousand people on Mars they can look for signs of previous life but lets get a backup of the human race over there first.
That is why we are interested in water on mars. we want to drink it.
Finding water (or ice) on Mars is fascinating, but people that think this means we can turn it into a vacation resort are not being realistic.
As you point out, Mars does not have enough mass or magnetic shielding to preserve an atmosphere. Creating one by melting the ice caps would be a waste.
Then again, glass dome anyone?
--
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
Drill under the surface
by
HanzoSan
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
You may not only find alot of water under the surface but you may find life under the surface as well.
I cant believe no one here has even considered that for a moment.
-- If you use Linux, please help development ofAutopac
Re:Waiting to exhale... a waste?
by
junkgrep
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Just having lots of natural water available on the planet is good enough to help out some form of colonization, even if we don't go for a large scale project like you're discussing. It also might be possible to do something midway between what you're talking about and domes, setting up moderately controlled walled up environments on Mars without worrying about making the whole planet livable.
But I do like your idea as using Mars as a testing ground for potentially dangerous concepts. How about Buckminster Fuller's mile radius spherical floating (but tethered) city? I've always wanted to see that proof of concept idea attempted.
Re:Waiting to exhale... a waste?
by
haggar
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Actually, there is a chance to create a stable life-friendly environment on Mars. Think of what made theEarth the way we know it today: what changed the Earth was the evolutionary appearence of plants. Plants have dramatically decreased the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, decreasing the temperature in the process.
That made the Earth habitable for most multicellular organisms that we know today (existing and extinct). The only problem with the appearance of plants on the Earth is.. that it's a damn shame it didn't happen ealrier! The only form of life on our planet, for about 3 billion years, was unicellular, not very efficient in photosinthesis(sp?). As soon as plants appeared, other much more complex beings appeared, thanks to a much better climate.
Basically, plants have stabilized the temperature of the Earth on a lower level. I believe that they could do a similar thing on Mars, but on a higher level. If we create an artificial greenhouse effect and we produce a lot of plants that would survive such conditions, these plants could act as a stabilizing mechanism and keep the temperature in some more acceptable margins.
Consider the other advantages: Mars would look a hell of a lot better.
-- Sigged!
CO2 on Mars is more important the H2O
by
spike+hay
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
It has been known for a long time that there is water near the surface. That Mars meteorite with the microfossils more or less proves that mars at least had life at some point.
I think the most important thing on mars is CO2, not H2O, however. A huge amount of dry ice is locked in Mar's polar ice caps and underneath its crust. If mars could somehow be warmed enough to gasify just some of this dry ice, it would create a runaway greenhouse effect and warm Mars enough for liquid water and plant life. The plants would in turn produce oxygen, which we can breath.
The hard part is kicking of the runaway greenhouse effect by melting the dry ice. This could be practically accomplished by one of 2 ways:
1. You could build a large gossamer mirror near mars to reflect more sunlight onto it, warming Mars up. This isn't as hard as it sounds, for very advanced humans. The mirror would *only* weigh a few thousand tons.
2. Or, you could put CFC-generating self-replicating machines (like nanobots) on its surface that which can also warm the Mars though the greenhouse effect.
-- If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
Your argument is sound, but needs to be expressed more carefully. Oxygen in the form of oxidized compounds is, as you point out, very common. But when you say "Oxygen" people assume you're talking about "common" O2.
We take this substance for granted because we happen to live on a planet that has a lot of it. But it's actually pretty rare -- O2 combines with other stuff very easily, and disappears. Luckily for us, there are all these green life forms that constantly pump it out as metabolic waste.
So if we spot lots of free O2 (or any other unstable substance), you have to assume something interesting is going on.
I'm a little suprised to hear that hydrogren is rare. Don't hydrogen atoms make up something like 90% of the universe? But perhaps you mean it's rare on rocky planets.
Slashdot Mirror
This, when combined with the earlier news regarding the eroding of the polar ice caps, would more easily allow some type of terraforming on Mars to occur. Drop in a bunch of plants that don't suck up much water and let them convert the Co2 to Oxygen. Now I wonder if it would actually work? :/
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
Really, the significance depends on who you're talking to. To the geochemists, I'll bet it means that there are probably mineral formations being made by percolation of soda-water through rocks (place a CO2 glacier on top of an H2O glacier and you'll get things dissolving into each other near the bottom where the pressures get up there). To the xenobiologists, it means that they've got a place to look for life. To the planetary scientists, they've got something against which to test their models of atmospheric/hydrospheric formation and evolution. To the Mars Society, it's a guarantee of the raw materials for rocket fuel, agriculture and an eventual technological society on the Red Planet.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
The only thing I am not sure about is iron, copper, and other metals deposits. Polymers replace the need for these in many cases, but not all. Anyone know the mineral layout of Mars? I imagine it is like every unmined region on the Earth, incredibly rich in easily-retrievable resources. Just think of Austria's Tallar gold mines (the largest gold strike in history and the origin of the word "dollar.") or South America's Potassi silver mines (the largest silver strike.)
The only question is whether colonizing Mars is something humanity wants to do. The return on investment on Earth in economic terms would probably be close to nil due to the cost of transport. On the other hand, making sure all our eggs aren't in one basket sounds like a reasonable self-preservation strategy.
personal attacks hurt, especially when deserved
The article states that the evidence of hydrogen was found in the soil near the polar caps - not unexpected, but nonetheless interesting.
There is overwhelming evidence that water flowed on Mars in the geologically recent past. The main question for those studying Mars is, Where did that water go?
We've known since the Mariner probes that there is a large reserve of water in the ice caps at either pole, but this reserve is not large enough to account for all of the erosion features of Mars. If, as has been suggested recently, there was once a giant ocean covering the northern hemisphere of Mars, then there is a LOT of water missing from Mars.
If, as has been suggested, there is a significant amount of water adsorbed into the soil of Mars, and as these results seem to indicate, this could account for the missing water.
Other theories suggest that the absence of a Martian magnetosphere may explain the lack of water on Mars - without a shield from a planetary magnetic field, the solar wind would dissociate large amounts of water vapor in the atmosphere - raising the amount of free oxygen. The hydrogen would be lost into space, especially on a planet as small as Mars.
Why is this important? Because some of the smae processes are going on here on Earth - water is lost through photo-ionization and conversion to crustal rocks. The amount of water vapor in our atmosphere is a very important factor in global warming and weather patterns. So, by studying another planet, we can learn about our own. Very neat stuff.
---------------
Vpered na Mars!
It seems to me that if we are going to find signs of life anywhere on Mars it would be in the ice caps. Spores have been known to survive thousands of years on earth, perhaps we could find some form of microbe still frozen in the ice that could even survive if thawed. It may even be possible for these life form to still thrive (Volcanic activity creating liquid water beneath the caps?). I believe Nasa should make it a priority to have their next surveyor gather samples of the ice for analysis.
I stole this Sig
Huge significance. All the talk of global warmings and temperature snaps means humans are more likely to start heading towards space soon. In any eventuality, we're going to head out to the rest of the Universe soon (next 100 to 200 years at the latest) and need to find viable new homes.
Having Mars available will give us a boost in terms of learning how to teraform and how to populate new planets. It's also an untouched resource in terms of natural resources and learning experiences.
I for one want us to last for a very long time and being stuck one planet is not the way to do it. Thus populating mars is the next logical step.
Of course (now the rant portion is over), we need water. Water would allow us to irrigate and grow the food that is native to us. Everything on our planet needs water to survive (as in everything we need) and it makes sense that we would live on a planet with water.
internet like monkeys'
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
Significant water-ice deposits easily accessible from the surface would make it much more likely that life existed at some stage on Mars.
Damn keyboard shortcuts!... sorry about the double post.
Aren't we more interested in finding water to give us a more reasonable hope of colonizing Mars? once we get a few thousand people on Mars they can look for signs of previous life but lets get a backup of the human race over there first.
That is why we are interested in water on mars. we want to drink it.
ej
Finding water (or ice) on Mars is fascinating, but people that think this means we can turn it into a vacation resort are not being realistic.
As you point out, Mars does not have enough mass or magnetic shielding to preserve an atmosphere. Creating one by melting the ice caps would be a waste.
Then again, glass dome anyone?
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
You may not only find alot of water under the surface but you may find life under the surface as well.
I cant believe no one here has even considered that for a moment.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Just having lots of natural water available on the planet is good enough to help out some form of colonization, even if we don't go for a large scale project like you're discussing.
It also might be possible to do something midway between what you're talking about and domes, setting up moderately controlled walled up environments on Mars without worrying about making the whole planet livable.
But I do like your idea as using Mars as a testing ground for potentially dangerous concepts. How about Buckminster Fuller's mile radius spherical floating (but tethered) city? I've always wanted to see that proof of concept idea attempted.
Actually, there is a chance to create a stable life-friendly environment on Mars. Think of what made theEarth the way we know it today: what changed the Earth was the evolutionary appearence of plants. Plants have dramatically decreased the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, decreasing the temperature in the process.
That made the Earth habitable for most multicellular organisms that we know today (existing and extinct). The only problem with the appearance of plants on the Earth is.. that it's a damn shame it didn't happen ealrier! The only form of life on our planet, for about 3 billion years, was unicellular, not very efficient in photosinthesis(sp?). As soon as plants appeared, other much more complex beings appeared, thanks to a much better climate.
Basically, plants have stabilized the temperature of the Earth on a lower level. I believe that they could do a similar thing on Mars, but on a higher level. If we create an artificial greenhouse effect and we produce a lot of plants that would survive such conditions, these plants could act as a stabilizing mechanism and keep the temperature in some more acceptable margins.
Consider the other advantages: Mars would look a hell of a lot better.
Sigged!
It has been known for a long time that there is water near the surface. That Mars meteorite with the microfossils more or less proves that mars at least had life at some point.
I think the most important thing on mars is CO2, not H2O, however. A huge amount of dry ice is locked in Mar's polar ice caps and underneath its crust. If mars could somehow be warmed enough to gasify just some of this dry ice, it would create a runaway greenhouse effect and warm Mars enough for liquid water and plant life. The plants would in turn produce oxygen, which we can breath.
The hard part is kicking of the runaway greenhouse effect by melting the dry ice. This could be practically accomplished by one of 2 ways:
1. You could build a large gossamer mirror near mars to reflect more sunlight onto it, warming Mars up. This isn't as hard as it sounds, for very advanced humans. The mirror would *only* weigh a few thousand tons.
2. Or, you could put CFC-generating self-replicating machines (like nanobots) on its surface that which can also warm the Mars though the greenhouse effect.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
We take this substance for granted because we happen to live on a planet that has a lot of it. But it's actually pretty rare -- O2 combines with other stuff very easily, and disappears. Luckily for us, there are all these green life forms that constantly pump it out as metabolic waste.
So if we spot lots of free O2 (or any other unstable substance), you have to assume something interesting is going on.
I'm a little suprised to hear that hydrogren is rare. Don't hydrogen atoms make up something like 90% of the universe? But perhaps you mean it's rare on rocky planets.