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Oregon Supreme Court Declines To Hear Schwartz Case

merlyn writes "The Oregon Supreme Court declined to hear my case, leaving standing the unfavorable decision of the Oregon Appeals Court as the final authority on this eight-year-long case, well known to many sysadmin and Perl hacker alike. Details at my fors-announce posting." If you're not sure what that means, you probably want to read at least this site which offers a straightforwardly partisan look at the complicated case of Intel vs. Schwartz as well as Schwartz's own page; it's a strange world where programmers and sysadmins can be convicted for seemingly innocent activities.

25 of 327 comments (clear)

  1. and since when is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...cracking passwords an innocent activity?

    You know... most everyone I know who has followed the case seems to agree that the only reason you got in trouble to begin with was because of your inability (some call it emotional ignorance) to communicate properly with the admins within Intel.

    Still, all in all, I believe you've managed to do well for yourself. Written a couple of books, entrenched in the perl community, regular magazine article contributer, etc. You should feel lucky that you did not do any time in "pound you in the ass" Club Fed. You *should not* feel that somehow it's your god given right to have this little blight on your history removed (and to be honest, do you know *anyone* of any note or repute that doesn't have a bit of netorious past?).

    So, just get over it, continue to pay off your legal bills (and that's really that this appeal is about, right?) and get on with your life.

    1. Re:and since when is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > ...cracking password an innocent activity?

      Well the answer to that is when the cracking is not being done to secure access to the systems in question.

      Having a key to a safe shouldn't be a problem. Opening the safe and removing contents is a problem.

      I have been in very much the same situation as this in the UK. Although I was not running crack myself a friend of mine was, and was using my account to do so. His interest in doing so was mere curiosity to see what percentage of passwords could be cracked.

      At no time were any of these cracked accounts used for anything and as far as I can tell from the reports neither did Randal.

      This point was what resulted in my case being dismissed.

      Cracking passwords is a potentialy suspisious activity and Randal was bloody stupid for doing it on company machines but until the accounts are used this should not be a crime.

  2. Re:What is the case about? by rendler · · Score: 5, Informative
    http://www.mega.nu:8080/batf/www.boogieonline.com/ revolution/science/schwartz.html:

    While working as a consultant with multinational microchip manufacturer Intel Corporation, Schwartz set up two ways of checking his Intel email via the Internet, and in an attempt to verify the security of one of Intel's computers, he ran the "crack" password-guessing program on an Intel password file. Intel considered the Internet access a security breach, and the password crack to be theft of sensitive information.

    In March 1994, Schwartz was indicted on three felony counts of computer crime under Oregon state law. He was convicted in July 1995, and sentenced in September 1995 to 5 years probation, 480 hours of community service, and 90 days jailtime (which may be dismissed for excellent behavior). Intel is also seeking $72,000 restitution. Schwartz has spent over $130,000 on his legal defense, most of it his own money, with additional contributions from individuals and organizations on the Internet.

    --

    *shrug*
  3. Oh Please by Laplace · · Score: 5, Informative

    Randall Schwartz was doing some shit that Intel didn't like. It also happened to be illegal. Intel asked him to stop. They asked him nicely. He didn't, and Intel had him prosecuted. Randall Schwartz made his own bed.

    Flame on.

    --
    The middle mind speaks!
    1. Re:Oh Please by Matts · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Randal tried to tell Intel execs to change their passwords to be more secure. They didn't, and said it was a non issue.

      Randal was merely proving his point, when he found out the vice president's password was "pre$ident", and many other insecure passwords.

      --

      Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
  4. Innocent Activites?! by gclef · · Score: 5, Informative
    You must be joking. He was caught cracking the passwd file for Intel and O'Reilly without their permission. His activities were anything but innocent.

    Some background from the other side: an affidavit from one of the Intel folks is here:

    http://www.lightlink.com/spacenka/fors/police/inte lrep.txt


    Basically, he cracked more than one companies passwd file without permission...one of them was a company he'd been dismissed from earlier (he was still logging into their machines and was cracking their passwd file,too).

    Personally, I'm not at all surprised that they threw the book at him.

    1. Re:Innocent Activites?! by sinnergy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, that's certainly one way to look at it, isn't it. However, things aren't that simple. You and I both know that. Anyone who has had the opportunity to hear his side of the story in person knows it goes a little deeper than that. I had the privelage of hearing him speak at Ic0n hear in Cleveland earlier in the year and again at Phreaknic in Nashville.

      Yeah, he isn't completely blameless and he doesn't claim to be. However, he's being railroaded on some serious charges. If you know the laws he was tried under you know how vague and broad in scope they could be. Under those laws and a liberal interpretation, I would be unable to effectively do my own job.

      So, in short, let's look at both side of the story here. I encourage anyone who will dismiss Schwartz right off the bat to hear his side of the case.

      He's a pretty nice guy, to boot. A hacker's hacker, if you will.

  5. Don't do anything without written permission by mttlg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, so in Oregon it is a crime to "unlawfully, knowingly and without authorization alter a computer and computer network." The obvious solution here (for people working on computer networks in Oregon) is to obtain written permission from the appropriate authorities before altering a computer and/or computer network. Print up forms with the full text of the appropriate laws and give them to the appropriate people. Whenever you need to do anything, request permission in writing. If they complain, have them provide authorization in writing for performing specific common tasks at the discretion of the individual, but keep requiring written authorization for anything else. If the law really is as broad as it is being described, there is too great a risk of prosecution to do otherwise, especially if you deal with security testing. Either get permission or don't do it - there's no sense putting yourself at risk to do something that the network's owner probably won't care about anyway.

  6. Schwartz used bad judgement, nothing more. by Schwarzchild · · Score: 4, Interesting
    IIRC from one of his web sites he pretty much describes all of the events that led up to his being arrested. He is honest about the fact that his contract at Intel's Supercomputer division was about to expire and he was trying to find a reason for them to continue to keep him employed and he decided to use their weak computer security as a reason for them to continue to use him as a contractor. Unfortunately, he wasn't an admin and he didn't get permission to crack the passwords. So when the admin found out that Schwartz was running Crack he informed the security guys at Intel.

    Also IIRC it seemed like Intel management wanted to handle it differently than Intel Security which called up the Sheriffs office, I think, to have Randal arrested.

    IMHO he only used really bad judgement and is obviously not a cracker bent on maliciousness.

    I think it's too bad that the courts came down as hard as they did on him. At least he's not still in prison.

    --

    "sweet dreams are made of this..."

    1. Re:Schwartz used bad judgement, nothing more. by truesaer · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I don't see how it matters if he was malicious. It seems he's been convicted, but is not going to be serving a long sentance in jail, so maybe he should feel lucky. I was an intern at Ford this summer, and I'm sure if I decided to demostrate to them that they should hire me by cracking the passwords of executives I would have been arrested and charged with a crime.


      This case ended exactly as it should have

  7. bad decision, but... by markj02 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sounds like a bad legal decision and it reflects poorly on Intel. But one thing to keep in mind: workplaces are all about politics. People who play their cards right seem to be able to get away with murder. People who hack and don't shmooze, on the other hand, are very vulnerable. If you are of the latter persuasion, do things completely by the book and get permission for anything even remotely out of the ordinary in writing.

  8. Re:The law is too broad, but Randall should have.. by topham · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unless specificly authorized in his capacity as a consultant he never should have touched the password file.

    As a consultant you may be in the situation, on a daily basis, that you have access to information which is not yours to do anything with. Thats the nature of the beast, don't screw with it.

    As a consultant I have access to data on the customers of my clients. That data is confidential. Unless specificly using the data for testing I have zero right to that data. Even if it is in the database I have access to, and available to me based on my access privledges.

    Having access to data doesn't mean you have the right to that data.

  9. *Seemingly*??? by autopr0n · · Score: 4, Redundant

    I'm sorry, but at first blush what he was doing would not seem inocent to anyone. He was cracking passwords, and sent out some VPs password to other people. He was also not a fully employee and didn't authorization to do what he was doing.

    He may not have meant any harm by what he did. And when you look closer you can see that. But what he did does not seem innocent in any sense of the word.

    Yeh, now mod me flamebait like that first post AC. God forbid we should go against the Editors

    (btw, sorry this post hasn't been spellchecked. I'm away from home and my spellchecker)

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  10. Overview Mirror by corby · · Score: 5, Informative

    The hyperlink in the story to the overview of the Schwartz case is responding, "User over daily limit".

    Use the mirror here.

  11. Site's down. Try this one... by evilviper · · Score: 4, Informative
    Pulled Straight from Google's cache: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.rahul.n et%2Fjeffrey%2Fovs%2F

    Intel v. Schwartz

    Intel's Prosecution of Randal Schwartz

    Cybersalem|
    &nbspPress|
    &nbspWhat can you do?|
    &nbsp
    Kevin Mitnick on Hacking
    Note:
    The Open Letter to Intel closed to new signatures
    on October 4, 1999.
    Thanks to all who have signed!

    Geek Kahuna Goes Bad?


    It began prosaicly enough.
    Randal Schwartz, who I knew from Usenet and his
    very successful books on the Perl language,
    was on business in Silicon Valley and agreed to meet me at
    Frankie, Johnnie & Luigi Too,
    an Italian restaurant in
    Mountain View CA, to offer me advice for a program I was
    writing.

    It might seem surprising
    that Randal would agree to take time
    from a hectic schedule two weeks before going on trial to give
    what amounted to free consulting to a stranger.

    However, those who
    have been interested in the Perl language for a while
    know that Randal
    is a legend for his generosity.


    Actually, I didn't know Randal was going on trial in two weeks.
    I had heard rumors that he had some sort of legal difficulties
    (a civil suit I assumed) which involved Intel.
    I'd known many people with matters before the
    courts, some close personal friends,
    and few liked to discuss them.
    Therefore it was not until
    Randal had fielded my Perl questions, the talk
    turned to minor chit chat and Randal unexpectedly proved
    willing to discuss the matter that

    I discovered the person I was drinking beer with
    was looking at fifteen years in a few days, and, if convicted,
    would have the biggest legitimate reputation by far of
    any computer criminal.

    I didn't necessarily credit the story he told me -- every
    accused felon tells you it was all a misunderstanding, and
    they are almost always just plain guilty.
    Neither, I must confess, do I have unquestioning faith in
    all the conclusions D.A.'s draw.


    Days later, an Oregon Jury convicted Randal of
    three felonies.
    Randal Schwartz was, in the eyes of the law, a
    Geek Kahuna Gone Bad,
    the first.



    Especially eerie about the Schwartz matter
    was the silence surrounding it.

    This clearly was a very significant case, far more so than
    some which have drawn a lot of attention.
    Randal Schwartz was either
    the most dangerous computer criminal ever,
    or something was terribly amiss, I had to know which.
    That night I put the project I had discussed with Randal
    on a shelf, where it remains.

    "Feel free to stop dancing around the issue
    any time you like and
    tell me what this is all about."


    On July 25, 1995, a Washington County jury in Hillsboro, Oregon
    convicted Randal Schwartz of three felony counts:


    Count 1: Randal did
    between November 1, 1992 and November 1, 1993,
    "unlawfully, knowingly and without authorization alter a computer and
    computer network consisting of Intel computers Mink and Brillig".


    Count 2:
    Randal did between August 1, 1993 and November 1, 1993,
    "unlawfully, and knowingly access and use a computer
    and computer network for the purpose of committing theft of the Intel SSD's
    password file".


    Count 3: Randal did,
    between October 21, 1993 and October 25, 1993,
    "unlawfully, knowingly
    access and use a computer and computer system for the purpose of committing
    theft of the Intel SSD individual user's passwords."

    "Look, son, Randal may be a what you call a Geek Kahuna,
    but the law is the same for him as everyone else."


    Actually, Randal was not tried under the usual criminal
    laws, but Oregon's Computer Crime law.
    Uses of this law are rare.
    I can discover only two convictions under it since 1991,
    and in one there was no trial.
    The purpose for a separate Computer Crime Law
    was to avoid having bad guys escape on technicalities,
    something its drafters felt that
    even an extensive revision of traditional criminal law would allow.
    This they accomplished by making it a felony
    to knowingly do anything
    "unauthorized" on a computer.
    Unusually for a law with severe penalties,
    there is no requirement to show the defendant caused or intended
    any harm.
    All that is necessary is to show
    that the proper authority did
    not like whatever was done.


    The first count is that, pure and simple --
    Randal putting a
    program on an Intel computer which Intel did not like.
    The "stolen" property of the second and third counts
    was never removed from Intel's premises, Intel was never
    deprived of any of the economic benefit of the
    property, and no evidence was presented
    Randal intended to do either of these things.
    These "thefts" consist entirely, again, of doing things
    which Intel decided afterwards
    it did not like and which it claims that Randal
    was not allowed to do -- this time with
    password files involved.


    Criminal laws with wide applicability and severe
    penalties are a feature of totalitarian states, and
    may be a necessary evil in free ones.
    In Randal's case, where he was trying to be helpful
    and caused no harm,
    the potential evil in applying such a law
    is far more apparent than its necessity.

    At the least,
    a free society asks that a serious crime
    genuinely reflect one of its serious concerns,
    and not simply be a tool the powerful can use
    against the powerless whom they find obnoxious.

    A good test of this can be made when a powerful
    individual breaks the law.
    But for computer crime, which is complex and
    technical, such tests are
    available only as a matter of luck, since
    the powerful decide who gets investigated.


    However, we have such a stroke of luck in this case.
    An Intel VP confessed on the stand to a more serious
    infraction of Oregon's computer crime law.
    And the Washington County D.A.'s office,
    which so eagerly talked tough when facing the
    powerless Randal,
    has observed a demure silence on this topic.


    The defects in the law should easily have
    been enough to prevent
    this case ever coming to trial, and made discussion of the rest
    of this matter moot.
    But at each step of the way, as one person or another faced
    the prospect of telling Intel "no", they chose instead to
    praise the Emperor's fine new suit.

    Some Highlights from the Ongoing Farce


    • No evidence that Intel disapproved of Randal's behavior
      exists, except as remembered after the decision
      was made to prosecute him.
      Not so much as a hand-written note indicates anyone had a
      problem with Randal beforehand.

    • Lest those testifying for the prosecution,
      all of whom had financial interests in the good will of Intel,
      forget Intel's concern in this matter,
      an Intel Security person sitting at table next to the prosecutor
      served as a convenient reminder.

    • Intel was heavy-handed in making its presence felt throughout.
      The police prepared the search warrant at Intel premises,
      three Intel employees helped search Randal's house,
      and one helped police interrogate Randal.

    • This interrogation produced the prosecution's "best" evidence:
      police statements that put the words of a full confession
      in Randal's mouth.
      Indeed they claim Randal confessed to a history of hacking
      everyone he had done business with.
      (All these other "victims" provided witnesses for the defense,
      and Randal was charged with none of this activity.)

    • The police claim to have memorized Randal's highly technical
      statements with the aid of a few "cryptic" notes,
      and reproduced them accurately later at the station.
      It is hard to overstate what an incredible
      feat of memory this is.
      Det. Lilley, who produced the more complete statement,
      didn't know what the word "directory" means in computer lingo.
      Mere mortals with similar backgrounds would have found it
      impossible to follow the discussion,
      much less memorize it verbatim.

    • In other contexts, Intel had previously
      authorized Randal to commit both the acts
      allegedly unauthorized in this instance:
      cracking passwords and building a gateway to the Internet.

    • Randal was well aware of the steps a computer criminal usually takes
      to avoid detection of his activities and took none of them.


    As I go through the records in this matter, more and more
    startling and troubling material continues to come out.
    It is as if this case was an entry in a contest to see
    how much misbehavior could be squeezed into a case where nobody
    was shot or beaten.
    I document my progress into this shambles in the
    Letters from Cybersalem.




    The Letters From Cybersalem


    CS0: Announcement.
    Obviously, the letter which announced the series.


    CS1: Disclosures and Disclaimers.
    My connections
    to Intel and Randal, and various other things which need to
    be said. Nothing stunning IMHO, but you have a right to know and
    to judge that for yourself.


    CS2: Wizard Prosecutions: Then and Now.
    A comparison of the quality of
    the prosecution in the Salem, Massachusetts of 1692 and
    the Hillsboro, Oregon of 1995.
    Witchcraft prosecutions have declined sadly in the last
    300 years.


    CS3: The Unindicted: Ed Masi.
    It is so easy to make a case for the crime of which
    Randal was convicted,
    an Intel VP testifying against Randal made a
    full confession under oath on the stand.
    It's all here.


    CS4: Shocked, Shocked.
    Randal's "crime" caused no harm, which is perplexing
    since harm is basic to both the legal theory and lay
    intuition of what "crime" means.
    The policy infraction to which Ed Masi confessed
    is shown to have quite likely caused real and serious harm to Intel.

    CS5: Leadfinger.
    This imbecility is not without its literary appeal.
    A nicely Kafkaesque touch is added by the reluctance of the
    Intel nabob who ordered Randal nailed to identify himself.
    Of course, nobody forced him to come forward.

    CS6: Unlearn Perl in 41 days!
    Rich Cower of Intel security, adds to the list of
    remarkable intellectual feats performed on behalf of the
    prosecution. On June 13, 1995, he answers most questions about
    Randal's Perl scripts with assurance, but passes on others
    until he can look at the code.
    41 days later he testifies under oath he does not know Perl.

    CS7: The Essential Cower.
    As Network Security Expert at Intel,
    Cower played quite a role in the case.
    He was present at the search,
    participated in Randal's interrogation,
    was an expert witness and
    as State's Expert sat next to the prosecutor
    for the whole trial.

    CS8: What Does Familiar Mean?
    However, this Intel "expert", when shown the seminal
    work in modern network security, Cheswick and Bellovin,
    does not recognize the cover.

    CS9: Shortcut to Expertise.
    An examination of Cower's background and qualifications,
    as revealed in his testimony.

    CS10: Too Stupid for Their Own Good?
    Randal's local paper was
    The Oregonian,
    already notorious for ignoring the Packwood scandal.
    It heaped abuse on Randal and the whole
    "computer programming subculture"
    during the trial.
    I recommend anyone planning to work as a programmer
    in Oregon read this one.

    CS11: Oregon Employees have No First Amendment Rights
    Unbelievable?
    That is Judge Nachtigal's ruling.
    Read it.

    CS12:
    Oops! There Goes Another Personal Right
    Judge Nachtigal also discovered that the law
    allowed "silly" (her word) prosecutions,
    which in the D.A.'s words
    show his "office must have an awful lot of time on their hands".
    These are forbidden by the due process protections of the
    14th Amendment,
    but Nachtigal finds that
    "we may want that authority there with computers",
    and the charges against Randal stand.

    CS13: The Confidence of the Public
    This one is entirely uncommented quotes.
    Here are some snippets.
    The prosecutor: "I don't represent Intel."
    The judge: "Not yet."
    The detective: "We could probably use two or three more people".
    The Associated Press:
    "Intel Corp. is handing the local police $100,000 to have two
    detectives concentrate their computer theft efforts
    at the company."

    CS14: Moore's Lawlessness
    It would be surprising if Intel's heavy-handed contempt for the law
    were unique to this case.
    As Tim Jackson's new book shows, it is not.

    An Open Letter to Intel

    We wish to express our strong objection to the prosecution of
    Randal Schwartz and Intel's role in it. We believe it necessary
    that Intel repudiate the criminal charges made against Randal in
    Oregon v. Schwartz, refund any "restitution" paid based on those
    charges and offset the costs of Randal's defense against them.
    This is the minimum that fairness requires since what happened
    was at worst a policy breach and since Randal also suffered loss
    of income, loss of reputation and a good deal of anguish.



    The full list of signers



    The current signature count, with subtotals by country



    Signers whose names you might recognize



    Comments made by the Signers


    The Open Letter closed to new signatures on October 4,
    1999. Thanks to all the over 2000 signers!






    Links


    To get an auto-reply giving Randal's own statement, and
    discussing how you can contribute to his Legal Defense Fund, send
    an empty message to

    Randal's Defense Fund mail daemon
    .


    Steve Pacenka maintains

    the Friends of Randal Schwartz website
    ,
    which is dedicated to archiving all relevant materials from
    all sides of this issue.


    There is also
    Randal's award-winning website
    .
    How come he gets an award and I don't? :-)


    You can subscribe to

    the fors-discuss mailing list,
    by sending a empty message to
    join-fors-discuss@telelists.com.


    There is also
    fors-announce,
    a moderated announcement list for Randal's case.
    This can be subscribed to by
    sending a empty message to join-fors-announce@telelists.com.

    Press Coverage

    I want to thank this site's host ISP
    A2I (rahul.net).
    for its steadfastness and generosity.




    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  12. Re:What is the case about? by YU+Nicks+NE+Way · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's a good summary at the SANS Institute site. Schwartz did three different things: (1) installed a backdoor in a firewall, (2) did an unauthorized password scan, and (3) used one of the passwords he obtained through this scan to log into a system to which he should have had no access. He then copied the /etc/passwd file off that last machine, apparently to run an attack against it, as well.

    Even a cursory review of the documents in the case make it clear that he wasn't framed, that he actually did the things he was charged with, and that at least one of the activities with which he was charged was not only unauthorized, but had been explicitly forbidden by his managers. He had been ordered to take his gateway down at one point. He did so, waited a few days, and then brought an equivalent service up on the same machine under a different name. (See this site for some more details.)

    In my opinion, what he did was certainly grounds for dismissal, and almost certainly technically criminal. That said, I think the district attorney was unwise to pursue the case against Schwartz, since the damage done to his reputation just on the basis of what is clearly the case would have been punishment enough. Even without the convictions, no major site will ever touch him again: security geeks are dangerous, and the last one you need is one that won't obey the policies about what he or she may attack at any given time.

  13. Re:The law is too broad, but Randall should have.. by phred · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For years now we have been reading comments about What Randal Should Have Done.

    It's easy to be critical from a distance. But before you're too smug in your assessment, walk a mile in his shoes, or in today's terms, sit for an hour at Randal's shell prompt. Many of us do every single day.

    Randal was doing pretty much what many sysadmins do as an ordinary matter of course: secure and protect the systems they are responsible for. It's the job they're hired for, you know?

    I've always felt that this amounted to a personality clash that spun out of control, bruised the ego of an Intel senior PHB, and then completely escaped from reality when it was referred as a criminal matter to the local gendarmerie.

    Unless you live in or next to Washington County, Oregon, as I do, it may be hard to understand the pressure that develops when the local cops get a call from the largest employer in your area and the most powerful company in the state.

    I remind everyone here that Randal was an Intel contractor with a one-line contract that basically ended up being interpreted in a completely arbitrary way.

    Randal would be the first to say he did some things that weren't wise, but there was never any intent of illegality or damage to his client, the mighty Intel Corporation.

    Intel has rightly gotten a big old black eye over this entire episode, at least among those who bother to learn the details, and at least as far as I know has not repeated this stupidity.

    Randal has managed to keep going, dealing with an onerous legal case, the threat of jail, an extraordinarily out of whack fine, and daunting legal costs.

    The Oregon law that all this hooked on is widely regarded as badly written and prone to misuse (I've written some Oregon law in my time, not in this particular area, and it's easy to see how this happens in the legislative process).

    The gross sense of disproportion is the lesson I have learned from this sorry episode. It is sobering for any of us who take on sysadmin duties under any circumstances. As security becomes an ever more complex and consequential issue, that is a lesson everyone should take seriously. Just because you are doing the best you can, all of us have our flaws. What protection do you have if someone decides to settle a grudge with you and have the full weight of an ill-defined law and an immensely powerful legal apparatus thrown on you?

    Good luck to Randal. He handled this with a lot more diplomacy and good cheer than many of us would probably have mustered.

    --------

    --
    Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
  14. What's the problem here? by duffbeer703 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Randal is totally innocent.

    If I found out that someone who was not a sysadmin or security analyst was running a password cracker on my systems, I'd be very pleased.

    Lets face it, it's a pain in the ass to setup passwords crackers, and if a "White Hat" Hacker decides to break into my mailserver, he's really doing me a service.

    As an example of similar activity, just the other day I found a man trying to unlock my mailbox with a screwdriver by prying the door off. I was actually comforted by the gesture, since I can now send a bug report to the post office and request that they install a stronger door.

    --
    Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
  15. Just took Stonehenge learning perl in portland. by BrookHarty · · Score: 3, Informative

    I was looking forward to meeting Randal at the "Learning Perl" class in portland, but he was sick. Thou a nice guy named Tad McClellan tought the class. We talked about Randal for a few minutes. Randal just used bad judgement, but there was never criminal intent.

    I really hate how the laws are using this non-violent, non-profit hacking as a crime. He should of been fired for breaking company policy, but a crime? He didnt steal anything, a password file was used on a company computer to run crack, he was planing to use it for the good of the company.

    I wish I owned a large enough company like microsoft or oracle, I could use my business and political weight to bring attention to matters like this. If Bill Gates announce he was moving all his companies from Oregon because of the way they treat thier citizens, maybe Randal would get a pardon. Look how Adobe called the FBI and they acted, the government supports the larger companies.

    Is it me, or is the laws and poltical dealings of of our Goverment piss you off? If it wasnt for 911 goverment reform would be taking place. But now its Terrorist threats and cyber laws.

    I better watch what I say, freedom of speech seems to be a passing fad.

  16. Innocent my left ass-cheek by ilsa · · Score: 5, Funny

    Crackers are bad enough. Password stealing crackers who put INLINE SOUND on thier webpages should be shot.

    --
    -- I Am Not A Terrorist.
  17. Found the article by Phroggy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Of course, just after I hit Submit, I found the link to the article:

    Rulings may put Oregon courts on trial next year

    The article is dated 11/26/01 and the only keep one month available for free online, so that link may expire soon.

    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  18. Re:The law is too broad, but Randall should have.. by dhogaza · · Score: 5, Informative

    Hear hear. I've been in this position and I always have asked, too.

    Not because I live in the state of Oregon but because it is the right thing to do (and my knowledge of right and wrong far predate the law in question).

    I think the major problem with Randal was that Intel had no idea of what he was actually doing, found out, freaked out. Freaki
    ng out was a reasonable response.

    The fact that the freaking out resulted in a criminal charge and conviction is unfortunate. Washington County (where Intel's Oregon facilities are located) is far, far more conservative than Multnomah County (where Portland, OR is mostly located). In Multnomah County some sort of non-criminal solution would've been the result, most likely.

    The Appeals Court and Supreme Court, though, don't rule on whether or not the conviction is "reasonable" but whether or not the conviction meets the test of law.

    That's not unreasonable, that's how judicial review is meant to work. The law as written is unreasonable, but not unconstitutional and therefore no constitutional grounds for overturning the conviction exist. There's no doubt about the evidence, so there's no evidenciary grounds for overturning the conviction.

    So ...

    1. Randal sinned in a relatively minor way, but sinned nonetheless.

    2. Intel and a hard-assed Washington County prosecutor decided to go after him in a major way (makes you wonder about past interactions, doesn't it? I would think that a single well-placed manager could've derailed this train if she'd thought Randal deserved grace).

    3. The law doesn't violate the Oregon or Federal Constitution (nor your state's, most likely). Therefore the Court of Appeals and Supreme Court, whatever their private view of the overreaction resulting in his conviction, have no basis for overturning it. (of course, they may actually want him to burn at the stake, but we don't know that, the Oregon Supreme Court is actually fairly liberal).

  19. Re:FYI about Oregon courts by dhogaza · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, the Oregon Supreme Court's ruling in the case that you're mentioning was eminently reasonable. The measure on the ballot *clearly* addressed separate issues, and the Oreogn Constitution is veyr clear on the issue.

    We have one of the most liberal constitutional amendment amendment procedures in the country. All you need is 50% + 1 vote to change it.

    If the right (or the left, though the right has been the side playing the game) wants to put multiple issues under a single ballot measure, all they need to do is to pass a Constitutional Amendment by a 50%+1 vote margin to rewrite our Constitution to allow it.

    The reason why this is important is that they put up tax-cutting measures that then have unrelated stuff tacked on in a single ballot measure. They hope that the promise of lower taxes will attract enough votes to pass the ballot measure regardless of whatever else they stuff into it.

    I personally think that those who write my state's Constitution were wise to specify that every initiative ballot measure must address one, and only one, issue. (it is incredibly easy to put a ballot measure up here, popular democracy at its best, the least we can ask is to be given one question at a time to vote on).

  20. I know I shouldn't say this but... by DarkHelmet · · Score: 3, Funny
    Well, I guess the Schwartz wasn't with him...

    (Look at my friggin' nickname, I just had to say it).

    --
    /^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
  21. in other words . . . by hawk · · Score: 3, Funny
    >Unfortunately, he wasn't an admin and he didn't
    >get permission to crack the passwords. So when
    >the admin found out that Schwartz was running
    >Crack he informed the security guys at Intel.


    In other words, intel security was a lot better than this wannabe suspected . . .


    hawk