RJ asks:
"I would like to get some advice from others that may be going through the same situation I am. I am currently 19 and will be turning 20 in 1 week. I have held my current job, as Systems-Network Administrator, for almost a year now in very good standing according to my direct boss, the IT Manager. I have 5 years industry experience and a few certifications, yet I am more then qualified for my current position according to previous employers (and my work history/experience). It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's." Either your too old, or your too young, or it's racial issues, sexual preference, and sometimes it can even be religion. Despite the fact that it's the
21st century discrimination still exists and many of us have had to face it in our careers. For most, it basically amounts to a career roadblock, while for others, it can also turn into an extremely humiliating and terrible experience. What options exist for those who experience it in any of the many forms it can take in the workplace?
"The IT Director has never approached me about any of this and treats me fine to my face, but seems to talk bad about me around my Boss, though my boss does his best to defend me. I have had no work problems (documented or not) and have a clean HR record. It's to the point I can't trust anyone at work anymore. Everywhere I work people like me but as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me, become jealous, or try to find ways to get rid of me. I have learned to deal with this problem as I figured it went with the territory.
However, I also have a new baby daughter and a new wife to support
and I can't lose my job, especially in this economy. Needless to say
I am polishing up the resume and starting to look for a new job, but can anyone offer any sound advice, or legal actions which I can take if I do get fired, or even suggest employers in the industry that are friendly to my age bracket?"
Slashdot Mirror
It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's.
OK, you need to buckle down a little here and realize that it might be a perfectly legitimate complaint. They hired you knowing full well what your age was (unless you've got premature gray hair or you dress like Mr. Rogers), and you need to realize that they wouldn't have hired you if they didn't want you. Something has changed between the time when they hired you, and now. Odds are you've demonstrated something about your age that didn't show up in the interview. I don't know what it is in your case, but typical guesses would be that you've made some less-than-mature decisions.
I know plenty of people who have done the same thing. One example that comes to mind is a guy who started dating coworkers. A lot of them. And while it wasn't against company policy, it looked pretty immature when he was involved with a different staff member every month - and it wasn't the kind of mistake a 40-year old programmer would have made. The powers of the company didn't start disliking him because of his age: they disliked him because of the decisions he made.
Another thing you need to consider is the economy. Suddenly, employers have their pick of the best that's out there, and prices are dropping. You might have been a choice pick two or three years ago, but now there are better people out there with more experience, and the IT director might even have someone in mind.
Don't forget that personal connections mean everything. Your chief responsibility is to make sure your boss doesn't make any mistakes, and that he/she looks like a hero. As long as that's the case, your boss will always go to the mat for you, no matter how old/young you are, and nobody else in the company will be able to override them. You know what they say about trust: people who don't trust others, can't be trusted. If you come off as paranoid, nobody's going to put you in charge of stuff.
What's your damage, Heather?
That isn't a great question to ask the /. community. You are going to get a million IANAL but here is three large - run on forever and ever quite descriptive version on my opinion.
If you think you have a case see a lawyer. Besides that there is nothing you can do except... nothing. You can't be mean to him, as this will give him a legitamate reason to fire or demote you. You shouldn't ignore him because that isn't good for anyone in the workplace. But, most importantly don't take his shit.
But if you are serious about doing SOMETHING, do it legally and through the proper channels. I could have been one of the few woman-on-man sexual harassment 'victims' [read:Millionaire] if I would have sought real legal advice early.
Besides that, if you don't even know for sure what he thinks and he hasn't actually affected your job or overall life, there isn't much you can do.
I'm 21 and I learned this lesson fast. If you don't like the people you work with [or they don't like you] there isn't anything you can do; and if you quit or do something to get fired you may find it hard to get work afterwards.
Get your Unix fortune now!
I found that if you confront them and show them how much you know and how confident you are at your job then they will learn to respect your level of knowledge.
Wrong-o. If you confront a senior manager and start a showdown, you will win the battle and lose the war, looking like a cocky jerk. I can't believe how many times I see junior people try that stunt. If you correct your boss in front of other people, you are NOT helping your case. You will look like an overconfident know-it-all with zero political experience, and your boss will not have you around the next time he/she is in an important conversation.
That sort of trick works great when you're "fixing computers on my time off", as you said, but as soon as you get into a political office, you will be targeted for destruction. Think about how you feel when somebody corrects you, and you were wrong. Now think about how you'd react if they were much younger, and you had all the power. You might think you'd be nice to them, but in reality, you'd squash 'em like a bug and bring in somebody more polite and savvy.
Start your journey by reading The Art Of War. I can't emphasize enough how important this is in corporate culture: look weak when you're strong, and look strong when you're weak. Nothing impresses bosses more than an employee who gets the war of corporate culture, and knows how to pick battles.
What's your damage, Heather?
It's always easier to get a higher starting salary than a raise. If you don't like where you are, and your skills are as you describe, then get your resume out there, and take a better job.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I had problems with discrimination in my first two jobs out of college - about ten years ago. I had the double whammy - young (21) and female. I was a sysadmin, programmer, jack of all trades, with three years of experience and a CS degree. But because I was female, the salesmen gave me letters to type. The owner referred to me as the "computer girl" and treated me like a secretary. I tried to tough it out for a while, but realized that there isn't much you can do about people like them. So I quit.
The next place I worked at, I was the manager of the IT department, with two employees reporting to me. I was nearly 20 years younger than them, and one of them had major problems with my age. She tried very hard to get me fired. Most of the other managers also thought I was way too young and didn't take me seriously at all. So I quit.
The next time I interviewed, I looked for companies with lots of young employees. Getting a tour of the company is a great way to scope this out. I also looked for temp-to-hire positions, so I could make sure things would be good before hiring in permanently. And I found a fantastic company, where people didn't care that I was female or young. I was much, much happier.
So if you've got the experience, knowledge, and talent, why stay in an environment where you're uncomfortable or not treated right? Life is too short...
When I was 19, I had five years of real world experience, too.
Now I'm 28, and I have 9 years of real world experience... All of it in the past 9 years.
-JDF
First, you don't have 5 years experience. Unless you started working 9-to-5 at age 14. Part-time at 14, which I doubt you did, doesn't count. Running a few linux machines at your high school or at your house doesn't count.
Second, do you actually care whether or not this is age descrimination? I wouldn't. If someone is looking to get rid of you, the real problem is that someone is looking to get rid of you. You either resolve that or you get ready to get kicked out of the company. Get ready for the inevitable -- you are on the way out.
How about you take the obvious not-so-attractive-short-term choice: quit the company, get some student loans, and go back to college. (I'm assuming you either dropped out or never went)
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
In my opinion, there will always be discrimination. My experience in industry and academia has taught me to be very aware of discrimination. It is there, and it always will be there. Humans are human. As long as we judge each other, discrimination will occur.
With that said, I wish people would stop complaining so much. It is actually very, very rare to be discriminated against. To be more precise, it is rare to be only discriminated against. Instead, what usually happens, is that a person is lazy, annoying, or useless. Management then makes a move and the person being "attacked" cries discrimination.
I'm not trying to minimize the impact of discrimination, but come on folks, most of us know that the people being "discriminated against" are the slugs. They are the people that you actually want to eliminate from your company or organization.
Once again, just to be 100% clear, I know that discrimination happens. I hate it. You hate it. But, in my opinion and experience, it is extremely rare that it is the only factor.
How to Download YouTube Videos
While I agree that the post to which you're replying takes a cynical view, I still agree that even if you have been programming since 16, your 'years of experience' don't start then.
When you tell someone about your professional experience, it should be just that. You should definitely also tell them about your pre-professional experience, but you're misleading them if you lump your junior high and high school programming/networking/admin days in with work you did in a professional environment.
BTW, I started programming (in Basic and 6502 assembler) when I was 12 years old. I am now 31, and I tell people I have 7 years of experience, which I do. I have never counted my experience as starting at 12!
Remember the razor, however. If you find that many people are wrong and impossible to convince, you may not be right. Good luck!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You may believe you are god's gift to your boss, but the people you are workign with most likely have degrees (which you obviously don't) as well as years more experience than you do. You may be doign your job OK, but I bet in ten years time you'd be the first to shout how much more useful experience you have than some 20 yr old, and how that experience helps you see things at a higher level and make better decisions.
The tech job market is competetive, and it may well be that although you're doing OK, that your performance falls short enough of what the higher ups know a more experienced person would bring to the job. I'd really adivise you to look for another job, although your other alternative would be to ask where you are coming short of expectations / requirements, and what you can do to improve yourself.
I worked for Mastercard for 5 years, starting as an intern after my sophomore year in college. I was in HR for a year, then an analytical dept for a year, then the "IT" department for 2 years. I was hired at 19, had great reviews and only compliments for my first 2 years.
After I graduated and was hired full time, I was moved under a jack-ass of a boss. He was an idiot, but lied and carried himself well, so got away with a lot of shit. Anyway, he was my 4th boss at the company and was the only one to talk about me behind my back. He gave me great reviews, but the raises sucked and he told others I was too young, even though everyone agreed I did more than my share of good work.
After one particular comment he made in front of others, I put in an official complain in human resources. They did nothing. I went to his boss, who also did nothing (he seemed to feel uncomfortable with discussing it with my boss). I felt my salary was being held back because I was being discriminated against. I had no good way to prove it, however.
I took 2 weeks vacation, found a new job, and started at double the salary I was getting at Mastercard. I'm still at this other company and I'm treated very well, even as the youngest in my group.
My experience tells me that if your IT director wants to get rid of you, you're out of luck. Granted it's a bad market, but go looking elsewhere. Remember that you won't be able to sue him (most likely) until after you're fired, which is way too late if you've got a family. So freshen up that resume and send it to everyone and their mother.
Good luck.
Developers: We can use your help.
Speaking strictly, the IT director won't tell you this to your face because it's not his job to do so. It's his job to deal with your boss (from the sounds of it). Period. And your bosses problem to deal with you.
Now, what should happen is your boss would shield you from the director. If your boss thinks his boss is out of line, it's up to your boss to do something about it.
If you were to go over your bosses head and complain somewhere over the Director's head, it may get your boss in shit.. because it's his job to sort this out.
Now.. strangely enough, I was in basically this exact same position a few years ago, if you can believe it.
The VP Tech (out of the blue) decided that I needed to be fired, and started basically blaming things on me, and to make it worse, he worked in our head office, not in the building I was in. Whenever I saw him in person, he was nice, joking, friendly. Whenever he was back in his office, he backstabbed.
Just before he moved to this new office and started trying to get rid of me, we hired an IT Director, whom I reported directly to (clarification, in my case, it's the VP who's bad and the director who's my boss) Now.. this guy barely knew me. I was young (24) compared to everyone else involved.. and he walked right into his new job to find that the VP Tech was trying to axe me. What did he do? He came to me in person, said so-and-so has it in for you, and flatly stated that he thought such behavior was unprofessional and that he had no intention of letting me go. This was after working with me for about 3 or 4 days.
Weeks later, at a meeting, with all senior management present, The VP brought up the topic of canning me again. My new boss stood up, said basically, and firmly, 'We are not letting him go, he stays. if you have a problem with what my department does, bring it up with me. It's not up to you to hire/fire my staff. That's why you hired me as the Director of IT'. This was in front of the CEO, etc. And that settled it. It never came up again.
Biggest problem I can see with "youngster's" at rhe helm is one of experience.
Not technical experiencebut of human experience.
The younger techs do not seem to grasp the idea that saving a Word File (et al) is not an innate ability that all humans have. Thusly, younger techs tend to be ineffective "trainers" and short on patience.
Oddly I also find younger techs do not have the ability to "See The Screen" allowing them to talk someone through a set of commands or mouse clicks to "fix" their issue. Despite all of their excellent tech knowledge and boundless energy, young techs aren't always great people people.
In the thinning IT world being able to talk to a 60 year old VP Assistant is more important than being able to script or build a BIND server.
(I am sure the 45+ set is saying that about me and my 30ish set -- such is life)
This
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Oh, what the heck. Here goes anyhow.
./ asking for advice.) Eat some humble pie, learn how you can improve, and you may get there in another 19 years.
Five years experience and you're 19? Like several others have said, no way. Unless, of course, you dropped out of junior high and started working full time, which I doubt. Ask your boss and HR people how they count years of experience, and restate yours to match their standards.
Sue them? Well, count on paying a lawyer a few hundred bucks to ask him a few questions. You could save it to pay for your baby, but you're pissed, right? Then drop it. You're unlikely to make out like a bandit, and you're very likely to taint yourself (for suing your employer) so badly nobody will ever hire you except as a temp or consultant again.
Confront the bastard. Well, you can. Most 19-year-olds don't have the maturity and self-control to pull this one off, but you may be the exception. If you do, figure out what your goal is and how you're going to get there ahead of time. Two more hints: First, you won't win if you threaten him, and probably won't if you try to convert the IT guy on the spot by jawing at him.
Second, if you want to win a confrontation, you should ask him (and your immediate boss, too) how you can improve your performance. Tell him you have a kid on the way, and you're serious about trying to be the best employee he has, and has him how to do that. Ask him why he wants to get rid of you, and what you can do to improve so that he wants to keep you. If you don't get any response there, try the IT director's boss, one level up, with the same approach. Then listen, write down what he says, and get to work on those suggestions.
You may want to become a "Master of the Universe," but you obviously are not in a position to get there by acting like one. (For one thing, masters of the universe don't bring their problems to
Are your grammar and dress in line with the rest of your company? The dot.bust has come, and you may be trying to get away with last year's mannerisms. Don't push it too hard. Khakis and no ties you can justify if you routinely crawl around behind machines or lug monitors around. Torn t-shirts and holes in your jeans may chafe a raw spot somewhere up the hierarchy. Keep that up only if you want to remind them you're a special case. The special case they may want to get rid of.
Or quit. Just make sure you have another job lined up before you go. Be sure that if you take this route, you are going to leave. You can look for other work, and test the waters, on your lunch hour or before/after work. But you're not trying to get a raise, you want a job. If you get an offer, you're out of there.
It seems to me like this is the "Hi, I'm 19-24, never went to college, am a kick ass programmer with TONS of experience but am stuck professionally! HELP!!!!" week.
I don't intend to offend you, but you must know some things:
1. Face it: college is IMPORTANT. Go study now while you still can. You may argue that you're married with kids now, but you're still young -- don't wait until you're 30 to say "I should've gone to college back when I was 20 and could".
2. Programming is cool, but it's not everything that matters. Once you learn calculus, statistics and logic you'll have better ways to solve problems. You'll see that there are solutions other than brute force.
3. Programming can be extremely easy next to mathematics. It's often much simpler to devise something that "just works" rather than developing it carefully and proving why it's the best solution.
4. Cutting and pasting perl/php for 5 years doesn't count as real work. Nor does assembling computers/networks. Just installing and updating software doesn't count as professional system administration.
5. The computer stuff you did in high school doesn't count as real world experience.
6. Whether you like it or not, most companies will NEVER consider you and most professionals won't respect you if you don't have a degree. You will keep losing arguments even though you're right.
7. You'll never know how much you lack unless you go to college.
In short, you may be stuck professionally for a reason other than age discrimination. Perhaps being a kick ass programmer isn't all that matters.
I wonder if "intimidatingly smart" is doublespeak for something else. I meet really really smart people a lot, and don't feel intimidated (I'm not so smart, so maybe I'm just oblivious ;-)
OTOH, I've met a fare share of moderately intelligent assholes who have a chip on their shoulder about how smart they are.
0.02
Tales from behind the Lagom Curtain
Discrimination like this will always happen, no matter what century; in fact, I think it might be better to call it 'jelousy' than 'discrimination.'
In any case, your best choice is to get out now. Look at the two possible outcomes:
1. He succeeds: you get fired. Then you have to explain the situation to other employers, who might just think you are making up a story to justify termination.
2. You prevent him from dumping you through legal means. Well, congradulations; now you have a guy who hates you for the rest of your life, and will do every little thing he can to sabatoge you. Sounds like a great place to work!
And as much as it sucks, federally there is nothing you can do. The EEO laws state that age discrimination applies to 40 and above. The best thing you can do at this point is check your state laws to see if there is something that can be done.
A third option you might have is to get a hold of your representatives in the house and senate. While there may be nothing that could be done to help you, you might be able to get laws past that could help others.
But more than likely, if they want you gone, they will find some way to do it that is legal. A director isn't a director because he/she fell into it, they are a director because they have survived, and they know what it takes to make it through.
Good luck. Sounds like you are going to need it.
Random Musings
No, it's not. While it is certainly valuable experience -- I'm a professional software developer now, and you can bet I listed my early part-time programming work on my CV at first -- comparing that to full experience of the same length of time is misleading at best. A part-time job such as you describe does not provide the same level of immersion into the position as a full-time job would. It simply isn't as "full on".
Quite rightly, almost no-one in the industry is going to give you the same amount of credit in your position as a guy who's been running a network full-time for 8 years. Furthermore, if you go around making exaggerated claims like that, they'll mark you down for the implicit dishonesty, and possibly use it as grounds for dismissal at a later date.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
That's not big, and it's not clever. For all the millions of employees worldwide, this is a small industry. You might want a reference from your current boss in future, or you might later wind up working again for someone at your present company, either back there or elsewhere. If you demonstrate that you're a grade A scumball by leaving without notice or badmouthing the boss/company as you go, it may well come back to haunt you sooner or later.
Never underestimate the power of networking. Leaving a good impression can give you contacts in the industry who can valuable open doors for you later on. On the other hand, a reputation as someone awkward or unhelpful will spread far faster and further than you'd like.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Bah, I'm a 19 year old about to turn 20 who has 5 years of experience, and the 5 year pin to prove it. I probably cant get as far as this poster though because he does have certifications and I have but one, a CNA.
I've gone through 4 IT managers, and all but the current one have treated me as a kid, not taking me seriously. This one though knows I know more about the history of the office's network than anyone else there, so my skills are valuable, and even though I dont work much during the semester, I still get called about some obscure issues predating any of the staff there. I'm still offered my position back at every break.
I have been ignored quite a few times, because I'm young, and they ask for one of my older coworkers. But there are still quite a few who value my expertice and knowledge about the systems we maintain.
I have never been offered a promotion, though I have gotten raises by threatening offers from other companies (which I have recieved). I understand why not, because I'm not a full time employee.
But if this poster is full time, has intimate knowledge of the system, and is getting 'bullied' by older staff because of his age and his possibly more current knowledge, it does sound like age discrimination, and he should seek help with it outside of the IT department (office manager, HR manager, etc).
--onyx--
As the poster of the parent note implies, once a Director has a mind to do things, like canning someone, they usually find a way to do it.
This is no joke. I worked for a large corporation (hint: they make big green tractors) as second-level tech support. Basically I oversaw the users in a zone and was responsible for ALL of that zone's IT needs. Just after I set up the systems and such for an international conference with 180 attendees (and got a commendation for it), I was fired without any reason given. They didn't even tell me right away; my security card wouldn't let me leave the building and some guy had to use his to let me out.
Upon being notified the next workday that my contract had been terminated, I called a friend working inside to see if I could find out what was going on. Apparently the inside story was that I'd been using company resources to "hack a server in north Korea" (which wasn't remotely true). But nobody had seen any logs or any other evidence. This was purely on the word of the IT director. I was 19 at the time and all the others in my position were 25+. Of course, I was a contract employee, so I had no legal recourse, but if I had ever heard anything about that story outside of that company, I'd sue. I mean, firing me for being too young is one thing, but making up some bogus bullshit story to blame it on?
End of lesson. You may press the button.
A couple years ago I was in one of those big warehouses that sell used office furniture. They had a fairly nice network covering the whole building, with a good POS and inventory setup. When I complimented the owner on it, he got all proud and parenty and introduced me to his son, the sysadmin. who was maybe 15, probably a little younger. He'd not only chosen the hardware and software, he'd pulled all the cable himself. ("Easy in an old building. Walls and floors aren't hard to get through.") Can't imagine a competent IS manager who wouldn't want to hire somebody like that.
We all know stories like this. Teenagers are just the right age to pick up these kinds of abstrat technical concepts, and they enjoy the work. Of course, in the process they show up old farts like me. Hence the resentment.
"I left home at 21, convinced that my father was the stupidest person in the world. When I returned 5 years later, I was amazed at how much he'd learned."
-Mark Twain
I think this is exactly what's happening with the submittor. As others have pointed out, his "experience" claims are surely an indication that he probably doesn't really know as much as he thinks he does.
I hope you know by now that this is not true.
Discrimination (age, race, sex, marital status...) is never legal, whether you are a contract employee or not, whether your contract says you can be terminated without cause or not.
Of course, this is not legal advice, IANAL, and you may well not have prevailed in a legal action. But you would have been well within your rights. This is (one of the reasons) why we have courts, contingency-fee lawyers, and anti-discrimination laws.
-Renard
It's been a while since I had a law class, but I think you could hit him for lost wages at the very least, and probably for a lot more. Sounds like he has it coming.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
The problem with a lot teenagers and some twenty year olds is their ego. From the post, I can tell that the poster thinks quite highly of his/herself. One could have twenty years of experience and do as well as someone who is a beginner in the field. Years don't define the quality of one's knowledge, nor do paper certifications.
So to say one is qualified for a job merely based on years of experience (how much "experience" one gets out of those years is quite variable), and some multiple choice tests is rather ignorant. The poster gives the impression that he/she is a big-head who thinks he/she is better than those who have their college degree (and don't bloat their knowledge-level), but truly is on the level of someone who just got out of high school and has no understanding of what a decent IT job requires.
with any superiors because even if you are right you will lose. Getting into a fight with your boss is like showing up with a knife at a gun fight (that's a quote from some famous movie, I don't remember which, flame me). They can always fire on the spot with out cause. Most states are "Employment at will" which means the don't have to give you a reason, and you can bet that if they did it wouldn't be an illegal one. Also in this economy if you piss off the director bad enough you manager will save his own ass and congradulate him on his descision. My advice, work your frickin butt off if you aren't already. Be the goto guy for ass much stuff as you reasonably can be. Talk to the director and ask him what you need to do to make him happy and if he dislikes you, what you did to deserve it. Make ammends as best you can even if director seems completely wrong. Unfortunatley your daughter may be depending on your ass kissing abilities. And with five years experience, you should know that ass kissing is a part of every profession (yes even the CEO has to kiss the stock-holders collective ass).