Posted by
michael
on from the double-the-pleasure-double-the-fun dept.
msolnik writes: "Over at RealWorldTech they've published an article on the future of 64-bit performance. This article covers the different technology from Sparc to Hammer. Its a great read if you are looking for information on up-and-coming products from Intel, AMD, Sun, and Compaq."
Shrinkage
by
CaptainAlbert
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Impressive though 64-bit processors might be, I'm not convinced that the performance improvement is going to be as big as people are expecting.
Remember that the components in any digital system - and I'm not just talking about your windoze desktop PC, but servers, mainframes and embedded systems too - have to talk to each other in order to do anything remotely useful. Last time I looked, most PCI devices din't utilise the provision for 64-bit data bus operation.
There's a perfectly good reason for this, of course... in order to attach a chip to a circuit board, you need an array of pins (or solder balls) that are macroscopic, so they can be soldered and handled without too much risk of accidental damage. Additionally, PCB tracks can only go so small (and so close together) without undesirable electrical effects and again, an inability to work with it in a production environment.
The "more bits" phenomenon has been sustained by improvements in VLSI and the advent of true System-on-a-chip design, but this too has its limits. If you compare a P4 motherboard with, say, a 386 mobo circa 1995, you'll see the chip count is drastically reduced. But fewer interconnected components means less repairability, upgradability, and interoperability. My old 486 had a VLB EIDE hard disk controller, which I swapped in after the last one failed. If my controller failed today, I couldn't do that; I'd either need to buy a new mobo or start replacing chips on the old one (which is just as expensive).
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for progress! And I expect we'll see more and more 64/128-bit chips springing up inside custom devices (e.g. 3D cards, routers) where the local interconnect can be made as fat as necessary. But the PC will remained shackled by slow frontside busses for a while yet, I reckon.
Re:AMD is deceiving you
by
SQL+Error
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Bullshit.
AMD has stated *explicitly* that the Hammer is an evolutionary rather than revolutionary design. They've said all along that it is an Athlon with 64-bit extensions and some minor tweaks (SSE2, extended pipeline). They haven't deceived anyone.
Now, as to the relative performance of the two architectures (x86-64 vs. IA-64): the Athlon XP 1900+ achieves a SpecInt2000 score of 701 (peak) while the 800MHz Itanium manages... 314. On floating point the Itanium does rather better: 645 vs. 634 for the Athlon. (The current leader is the IBM Power4, which gets 814 SpecInt and 1169 SpecFP.)
Having 128 64-bit registers is good, but remember that the Athlon and Hammer have far more physical registers than are presented in the programming model, and automatically map them according to the requirements of instructions in the pipeline. And the predicates and wide issue of the Itanium are balanced against the ability of the Athlon to *automatically* issue instructions speculatively and re-order the instruction queue to improve ILP.
And on the subject of manipulating multiple values with a single instruction: ever heard of MMX? 3DNow? SSE? Athlon has all of these, and Hammer will add SSE2. What do you think these are for?
As to the value of 64-bit addressing: I've programmed for machines (Suns and Compaq Alphas) with as much as 64GB of memory. While you *can* address that much with a 32-bit CPU, it means that you have to constantly re-map your view of memory, which is a royal pain. Moving to 64 bit addressing makes the problem disappear. And with current memory prices, even small commodity servers could make good use of more than 4GB of memory.
And 64-bit integer registers are good for a lot of things, and while you can certainly use 64-bit integers on a 32-bit CPU, making them faster won't hurt.
So, Athlon currently has a huge performance advantage over Itanium on integer apps, and a huge price/performance advantage (with comparable absolute performance) on FP apps. AMD's aim with Hammer is to extend Athlon cheaply and effectively into the 64-bit realm.
Intel's aim with Itanium appears to be to crush all competition; unfortunately, they've placed a *huge* bet on improvements in compiler technology that just hasn't paid off yet, resulting in a high-end chip that lags behind not just the high-end RISC chips like Alpha and Power, but low-cost desktop chips. To achieve commercial success, the Itanium needs integer performance somewhere in the vicinity of their competitors, but they currently trail the pack by a huge margin. Even SGI do better, and they all but shut down their CPU design efforts years ago.
Maybe McKinley will be the answer - but it doesn't look like it, given that the promised speeds have dropped to 1GHz. IA-64 is an interesting architecture which may even have a future, but so far it just don't fly.
Slashdot Mirror
Impressive though 64-bit processors might be, I'm not convinced that the performance improvement is going to be as big as people are expecting.
Remember that the components in any digital system - and I'm not just talking about your windoze desktop PC, but servers, mainframes and embedded systems too - have to talk to each other in order to do anything remotely useful. Last time I looked, most PCI devices din't utilise the provision for 64-bit data bus operation.
There's a perfectly good reason for this, of course... in order to attach a chip to a circuit board, you need an array of pins (or solder balls) that are macroscopic, so they can be soldered and handled without too much risk of accidental damage. Additionally, PCB tracks can only go so small (and so close together) without undesirable electrical effects and again, an inability to work with it in a production environment.
The "more bits" phenomenon has been sustained by improvements in VLSI and the advent of true System-on-a-chip design, but this too has its limits. If you compare a P4 motherboard with, say, a 386 mobo circa 1995, you'll see the chip count is drastically reduced. But fewer interconnected components means less repairability, upgradability, and interoperability. My old 486 had a VLB EIDE hard disk controller, which I swapped in after the last one failed. If my controller failed today, I couldn't do that; I'd either need to buy a new mobo or start replacing chips on the old one (which is just as expensive).
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for progress! And I expect we'll see more and more 64/128-bit chips springing up inside custom devices (e.g. 3D cards, routers) where the local interconnect can be made as fat as necessary. But the PC will remained shackled by slow frontside busses for a while yet, I reckon.
These sigs are more interesting tha
Bullshit.
AMD has stated *explicitly* that the Hammer is an evolutionary rather than revolutionary design. They've said all along that it is an Athlon with 64-bit extensions and some minor tweaks (SSE2, extended pipeline). They haven't deceived anyone.
Now, as to the relative performance of the two architectures (x86-64 vs. IA-64): the Athlon XP 1900+ achieves a SpecInt2000 score of 701 (peak) while the 800MHz Itanium manages... 314. On floating point the Itanium does rather better: 645 vs. 634 for the Athlon. (The current leader is the IBM Power4, which gets 814 SpecInt and 1169 SpecFP.)
Having 128 64-bit registers is good, but remember that the Athlon and Hammer have far more physical registers than are presented in the programming model, and automatically map them according to the requirements of instructions in the pipeline. And the predicates and wide issue of the Itanium are balanced against the ability of the Athlon to *automatically* issue instructions speculatively and re-order the instruction queue to improve ILP.
And on the subject of manipulating multiple values with a single instruction: ever heard of MMX? 3DNow? SSE? Athlon has all of these, and Hammer will add SSE2. What do you think these are for?
As to the value of 64-bit addressing: I've programmed for machines (Suns and Compaq Alphas) with as much as 64GB of memory. While you *can* address that much with a 32-bit CPU, it means that you have to constantly re-map your view of memory, which is a royal pain. Moving to 64 bit addressing makes the problem disappear. And with current memory prices, even small commodity servers could make good use of more than 4GB of memory.
And 64-bit integer registers are good for a lot of things, and while you can certainly use 64-bit integers on a 32-bit CPU, making them faster won't hurt.
So, Athlon currently has a huge performance advantage over Itanium on integer apps, and a huge price/performance advantage (with comparable absolute performance) on FP apps. AMD's aim with Hammer is to extend Athlon cheaply and effectively into the 64-bit realm.
Intel's aim with Itanium appears to be to crush all competition; unfortunately, they've placed a *huge* bet on improvements in compiler technology that just hasn't paid off yet, resulting in a high-end chip that lags behind not just the high-end RISC chips like Alpha and Power, but low-cost desktop chips. To achieve commercial success, the Itanium needs integer performance somewhere in the vicinity of their competitors, but they currently trail the pack by a huge margin. Even SGI do better, and they all but shut down their CPU design efforts years ago.
Maybe McKinley will be the answer - but it doesn't look like it, given that the promised speeds have dropped to 1GHz. IA-64 is an interesting architecture which may even have a future, but so far it just don't fly.