Getting the Java Religion

Anonymous Coward writes "Interesting article at angryCoder about java,c# and the entire .com "hype". Take a historical approach to the entire thing and brings up the following points: no business is truly altruistic, and one needs to learn from history or else."

Comments

So, what was that about Java?

[Violet Null]

I mean, really. This isn't flamebait. I read the article, and the only thing about Java (or, more precisely, Java coders) that I found in it was that, man, Java coders are religious about their language (which could be said about any language), and Java runs slowly (which is true, but not a new observation).

The rest was all quite rambling about different OSes for no particular reason that I could discern.

Re:So, what was that about Java?

[WasterDave]

Java runs slowly (which is true, but not a new observation).

It's not even that true any more, certainly within 50% of C++ in most cases. What is true is that it doesn't allow any 'low down' control, and that it bloats out a treat. But, it is generally believed here (NZ) and quite possibly the rest of the world that Java is the near term future of internal applications (which accounts for perhaps 95% of software development) but certainly not systems programming (which accounts for perhaps 95% of CPU cycles executed).

Dave

Re:So, what was that about Java?

[WasterDave]

this is a great example of a post from a passive-religious-java-coder

Wrong, from Wrongsville Alabama. I'm a C++ (systems) coder. There's just no point in trying to get C++ bespoke work any more since most projects are done in Java.

meeting 50% of c++ speeds which is pretty sad

Well, Java on a 1GHz Athlon is going to be about as fast as C++ on a 500MHz - which sounds fine to me. Don't use it for anything computationally expensive and you'll be fine.

Dave

Re:So, what was that about Java?

[Twylite]

Religious? No. Obsessive? Often. And with good reason; I'll let you in on a few.

Your average Java programmer is not a happy-go-lucky hacker. He works for a living, and wants a language that supports his development.

With Java he gets:

1. An extensive, well documented class library. This more than anything, more than syntax, more than platform neutrality, more than speed, more than any underlying technological benefit of any other language, more than you want a blowjob tonight, is what a serious wage coder wants from a language.
2. Garbage collection, for added stability and not being anal retentive about freeing memory. Also easier to use than smart pointers.
3. A pure-OO framework that allows designers to design stuff so that coders can't screw blissfully with each others minds, because there are no "back-doors" and the protection is run-time.
4. No operator overloading or line noise syntax, so when you come to maintain the code done by the vac. student (guru hacker from outer space) you have a clue what it means.

I like Java for all these reasons. I also like C++, for its power and the extra 5% performance I can squeeze out of it if I need to, and because I'm anal enough to do it right. But I've worked with more than a dozen people who weren't, so it became my problem to fix their mistakes.

One final thing. Using an Apache-style architecture, a Java server can happily achieve 90% of C++ performance on most client-server applications. And I've worked on two projects that prove it.

Good, ole fashioned, F U D

[gnovos]

This is FUD, albiet subtle FUD. Passages like "Whilst Windows has become a component-based rapidly-developing operating system, despite the open-source pretensions of mass part-time development, there is nothing revolutionary appearing (or likely to) on the same Unix platform it always was. Hopefully it will manage to survive in the niche's where Unix has been over the last many years." give away the writer's true intentions. If you want to make a point about something, you don't just come out and say it point blank, like "Linux is crap! Bppppt!", instead you take the subtle route and try and make your readers think that they came to that conclusion all by themselves, as this article seems to be doing.

When you say "Hopefully Linux will manage to survive" what you are really saying subconciously is "Linux may not survive, so don't use it". also by adding another, better choice in the same passage ("Windows has become a component-based rapidly-developing operating system"), you allow the reader to think he has discovered for himself something that the author has blindly missed. It makes the reader think he's "figured out" that Windows is superior. When you "figure out" something like this, it is far more credible (since it is coming from your own head) than when somone just jumps out and trys to push something in your face.

The propaganda battle (often called Marketing, btw) that's been going on recently would make a Nazi blush...

article=waste of time

[tongue]

This article has nothing real to say, except apparently that java coders all like to jump on bandwagons for an over-hyped technology, and that we should all instead hop on a microsoft bandwagon for an overhyped technology. I really fail to see what the difference between an overhyped java platform and an overhyped ".Not" platform is.

Re:Got me thinking...

[Anonymous Coward]

That won't happen as long as I can't watch my .mov files (easily) or have a seamless experience with copy & paste, URL's, being able to print, etc.

First you have a lengthy rant about how Linux needs "innovation", then you say what it needs is to clone a bunch of features from Apple and Microsoft.

Bottom-line: You're babbling.

Death of Linux and Java imminent

[karb]

OK, not really. But, like everybody else in the news media, associates linux and open source with the dot-com era (even though they have been around far longer). I have never seen anyone before associating java with the dot-com era. But it's associated again here, I guess hoping for death by association.

He also says good things about visual basic. Visual basic is a crappy language. Or, at least, everybody thinks that. So, of the 10 or 20 competent programmers I have met in my life, only one of them would even consider programming in Visual Basic (and I'm sure he'll drop it once he learns java or C++).

Incoherent rambling

[smoon]

Where in the h*ll is this guy coming from?

Has he ever had to _support_ a big MS server installation?

Sure, the "Mainframe is dead", except for the tens of thousands of businesses that rely on fast, efficient, reliable, and comparatively cheap processing provided by mainframes and the relatively inexpensive cobol programmers that man them.

Sure, Unix is a 'niche market', except for the millions of users who use it every day for tasks ranging from mainframe replacement to destop applications, not to mention the countless academic, engineering, and other uses Unix is put to. For example, running most of the infrastructure on the Internet.

Yeah, Java runs slow. Boo hoo. So does a windows machine, even when you ignore downtime due to reboots and system crashes.

When this bozo is ready to bet his business on a technology, and is ready to assume full responsibility for the consequences of his decision, and is able to execute on his strategy, then and only then is he qualified to write a credible version of the article referenced.