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Gracenote v. Roxio CDDB Suit Settled
An anonymous reader writes with this update: "As reported via the usual sources, Roxio announced today that the lawsuit (read all about it on slashdot) with gracenote has been settled.
To fresh up your memory: Gracenote ('cddb') sued Roxio because they switched from cddb to freedb for identification of audio CDs. Discussion on slashdot was active, especially questioning if gracenote really owned the titles. David Hyman, Gracenote CEO, added, 'We look forward to a long and mutually successful relationship between our companies through this new license for intellectual property and current and advanced music recognition services.' End of quote. Do I need say more than 'corporate lawyers'?"
Anyone else see the parallels?
Let's give Gracenote a couple of dimes to shut them up, it's cheaper than litigating this thing for years.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
What are they hiding?
Maybe the fact that Gracenote's suit had no merit whatsoever, and in order to save face, they licensed cddb to Roxio instead of being publically bitchslapped?
I looks like it is more critical to Gracenote to have an agreement with Roxio, rather than vice-versa. The masses don't care where their CD information comes from, they just use Roxio's software, and it works. Roxio has the pick of either CDDB or FreeDB, both are reasonably complete.
Gracenote, on the other hand, has to compete against a free service, and this seems like a bid to stay competitive by allying with a company that gives them access to a large part of the market, while keeping the option of shaking down smaller vendors of software, that users might want to switch to in the future.
Shame of Slashdot
"Roxio, Inc. (Nasdaq: ROXI - news), the Digital Media Company, and Gracenote today announced the signing of a multi-year license that provides Gracenote CDDB as the exclusive CD recognition service to current and future Roxio customers through Roxio's Easy CD Creator, Toast and SoundStream current and future products. Concurrent with the licensing agreement, Gracenote and Roxio settled all litigation between the two companies in a sealed agreement."
:-)
All I took away from the article was that it was more profitable for both companies to just work together, rather then work to make their lawyers rich.
This article seems kinda lite on information due to it being a sealed deal. Does anyone know anything further?
If you ask me I think this is a case of a company leveraging a large bank roll and good lawyers to further their product reach, not unlike some other large company.
It's not clear from reading this story who settled with who. (Forgive me if I missed the point somewhere!)
I can't believe that Roxio would have had to settle as surely they can get this information from whoever they like. So presumably they were given some incentive to do this... Which seems a little strange give that they were having legal action taken against them.
We need more information...
Sig is taking a break!
So we have a "sealed agreement", under which Gracenote backs down from their utterly contemptible and indefensible suit. This should not be the end of the matter, folks.
If we users allow corporate parasites like Gracenote to operate this kind of hit-and-run prospecting on OUR data, we will all lose in the end. With deep enough pockets, one of them is bound to succeed eventually.
The financial pressure against this kind of opportunistic horseshit must not end with a quiet "sealed agreement", and the lawyers all shaking hands and walking away. Don't use Gracenote's products, via Roxio products, sub-licensed technology on Windows, or any other vendor. Vote with your wallet. Use and help build free alternatives like freedb. The business case for Gracenote to try it again will be much tougher to build, next time they're tempted.
Well, a settlement usually means that one side has a clear advantage at the courts.
Now, using that basis, and the fact that the whole deal is a hidden arrangement, one could guess that one of the two sides obviously didn't want the public to know about this.
Okay, fine.. who has the most to lose by a public disclosure? Gracenote, I think. Follow this logic:
If Roxio was about to lose the case, Gracenote would rather have it public so that nobody else attempts to go without their service.
If Gracenote was about to lose the case, they could approach Roxio behind closed doors to offer them better incentives-- perhaps even PAY Roxio to use the service-- if they'll settle and keep their mouth shut about the conditions. Why would they do this? Because if it were well known that Gracenote couldn't control the 'industry' on CDDB, then nobody would bother to pay for their services in the face of a cheaper alternative.
Unless I'm completely missing something here, that's pretty much the best guess I can come up with.
Now its a bloated, buggy piece of crap, easily outdone by many other burning applications.
The real kicker is that when I finally realized I never used the software anymore (EasyCD 5.0), I deinstalled it and it removed a critical driver file (that it hadn't even installed itself), bringing down my Windows 2000 system hard until I could restore said driver from the install CD. Based on looking to Usenet for answers, this isn't all that uncommon of a problem when one attempts to deinstall this piece of crap under Windows 2000 or XP.
Way to go Roxio!
The thing you might learn from the CDDB history and the creation of the free version of CDDB - freedb - is that licenses do matter - even if the project is a volountary and open one to begin with.
Mikael
Pawlo.com
"must die"
Let's pretend I'm not a rabid Free Software supporter for just a minute:
Can you really call a list of artist/album/track info "Intellectual Property"?? OK, I may not agree with your argument that code/fiction/art/music you create is or isn't IP, but to call a fscking a list. A LIST of someone else's creative works IP? Isn't that just a bit too far? So, if I make a long list of train stations around the world, that list somehow "belongs" to me, as IP? Someone please explain this absurdity to me.
Posting anonymously because I never bothered to make an account.
If this kind of enterprise ever becomes profitable the RIAA is going to step in and say "All your titles are belong to us", and Gracenote will end up paying the RIAA a license fee just to stay in business.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
From the Roxio press release at Yahoo:
Roxio, Inc. (Nasdaq: ROXI - news), the Digital Media Company, and Gracenote today announced the signing of a multi-year license that provides Gracenote CDDB as the exclusive CD recognition service to current and future Roxio customers
In other words, Roxio agreed to cease offering freedb service, even as an option.
Answer: Sort of
Freedb is compatible with CDDB version 1 whilst Gracenote now uses CDDB version 2. So if your application is new enough to use CDDB 2 it won't work with Freedb.
Of course Gracenote almost certainly did this on purpose.
Fsck them.
In the medium term, I suspect "Gracenote" is going to switch to some proprietary audio fingerprinting technique, which is more reliable and robust than the current techniques used by FreeDB and the old CDDB. Furthermore, I suspect that there are numerous patents in the queue on doing this (never mind that it's pretty obvious). In the long term, of course, CDs will be about as important as wax cylinders.
That's pretty bold - Toast Titanium on the Mac is really pretty fantastic, and I've been using Toast 3.5.7 on another Mac for YEARS without a hiccough. Maybe Roxio's ware is fine, and it's your OS that's a POS?
That was classic intercourse!
Look at the big players:
* Microsoft - Why not, they aren't there yet. WindowsXP has the media player built in, and also CD burning. If you do install their CD writing software you can't use other software because of conflicts. On purpose? They also have their own music format which proves to be great at keeping songs from being copied. Trust me, I've backed up wma files I created and when my system crashed I couldn't play the restored files. [livid]
* Real - They used to charge for the player, now they are offering more and more for-pay content. This 'Real-One' software also has a built in CD burning component. Let's also bring up the fact that both players mentioned thus far use Roxio 'plug-ins'. Real needs to compete with MS so expect a internet for-pay system from them.
* Roxio - To my knowledge, the biggest recording software around. If the RIAA wants to be friends with someone, it's them. If we should be expecting a new CD Audio format soon, Roxio will likely be the only ones to let us record using it. Don't say there won't be a new CD Audio format, because there seems to be a new DVD format coming from MS. [don't forget their own for-pay systems]
* RIAA - The biggest bastards of them all! They want every penny, "all your fair use..." and of course double taxation is their favorite pastime.
So how does Gracenote fit in? Maybe there will be a new CD Audio format. That format one day may also have a user-id [.NET?] that makes you check in before you play, rip etc.
Who knows what they will cook up. They've already produced the copy-protected CD's. Buy Gracenote will likely be the center point where your CD will be cataloged. RIAA provides the artist names, Gracenote provides stats [where, when, what songs]. Gracenote also dishes out the serial number which helps the RIAA catch you when you 'donate' your music to a P2P network.
Maybe every subsequent copy made from a master disc [or master media file] will have a trailing number which keeps track of how many copies you've made.
When you pop in that CD you get a call[AIM, ICQ or MSN message]:
"Mr. Smith? You've copied that disc 47 times. Do you really need that many?"
This is Mr. Johnson... who the fsck is this?
Stay there sir, you are BUSTED!
Fall out for linux users? If we aren't required to use a DRM system by law, freedb will be sued - all non-compliant cdrecording software will go underground and don't expect to be able to play music CD's.
I know the seal is because one of the two companies are pussies but expect this system to come about. The world is absolute disarray - eXpect Problems.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think a class action suit is in order demanding that the percentage of the database built by users by me be calculated and that percent of Gracenote's total income be put aside each year and paid to us as royalties. If you're going to claim the list is IP, then my IP went into it along with thousands of others like me and we should get something for the use of that IP.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Please don't forget that Roxio also makes Toast for the Macintosh, which most certainly does not suck. Toast 5.0.2 has been the most worthwhile software purchase I've made in quite a while. Never had it crash, it's dead easy to uninstall, they fixed the conflicts with Apple's own Disc Burner (which won't work for me on my spare-parts beige G3/300 with my CD-RW) and they even sent me a few free blank CD-R discs just for bothering to register the product. I haven't burned one single coaster in *months* (which is rare for me! heh)
Overall I've been really happy with Roxio and especially Toast. I don't have much experience with their Windows products, so I cannot speak for them.
Can you really call a list of artist/album/track info "Intellectual Property"?
Short Answer: No.
Long Answer: As a general rule, No - it is not possible to copyright data in a database; it is possible to copyright the format of a database, but the data in that format can not be protected by copyright.
Do a search for "Feist Publications, Inc. vs. Rural Telephone Service Co. Inc. (1991)" for more information.
Ok. Go back and re-read my post.
But just in case [i've been up all night eating chocolate mints] here it goes.
My point was that Gracenote would only provide a database for disc id's.
Let's say you make a CD with a Roxio product [or plugg'd app]. Before you eject it the ID is taken from that CD. Not the serial, but the unique ID and it's furnished to Gracenote.
But how do they know what songs are on your CD? They [being whatever online emusic retailer] knows because you bought it from them. The track list is sent with the ID to Gracenote, they know what songs match that CD.
Now, here is the fun part. When you play that CD, Gracenote knows what songs you listened to and to what frequency. Whatever app you use to listen to music uploads the stats. Hell, even car radios could do this soon. Of course you get a weekly e-mail suggesting you buy this or that music.
With a format such as wma, you can listen before you buy. Buy, burn listen. Now, if you put that CD you've legally bought and burned into a CD-Rom and try to rip it, you get a nice little note: "sorry, but you can't copy this custom CD".
I've just spelled it out for the whole industry. In fact, they only need to find a distribution method. Agree on some restricting format. Come up with a numbering method. Roll out software [XP service pack 3]. And really not make a new format. If they just use Roxio burning soft, then they can come up with some sort of copy-protection method which would burn onto the disc. Considering it's against the DMCA to try to break it, they have the law behind them.
If they would like to roll out hardware later on, then they would. Maybe a CD player component that shows the information on your TV screen, such as lyrics or what not. All through the internet.
Get your Unix fortune now!
There's a slight difference here... Metallica, et al made music for the expectation of sufficient monetary compensation to make a living from it.
Those of us who did data-entry for CDDB over the years did it as a service to the music-listening-geek community, with only the expectation that CDDB would continue to be of, by, and for the people.
Now Gracenote has taken over a collective work without compensating those who produced it, and is charging the people who built it to use it. This is like being charged admission to get into your own house, which strikes me as more outrageous than people downloading copyrighted music to get back at the RIAA because they're tired of paying damn near twenty bucks each for two-dollar CDs with two or three good songs on them.
Eventually, though, just like they shut down www.lyrics.ch, the RIAA will decide to enforce the fact that the names of songs and albums are their intellectual property, and Gracenote will be the one on the wrong end of the legal gun.
Of course, that's only if the manufacture of computer-unreadable music CDs doesn't render Gracenote irrelevant first.
~Philly
If you go back and look at the original Slashdot article, you would see that part of what Gracenote was complaining about was that Gracenote *helped* Roxio write some of the code to access the, and helped Roxio out with some of the protocols they were using.
Roxio takes the help, and then turns around and make the default *another* DB - a free one that Gracenote is trying to compete with.
Gracenote had a decent case against Roxio. Gracenote could make a case that there was an understanding that the help Gracenote was providing would help Gracenote out in the end.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman