Borland C++ For Linux

Ardax writes: "Looks like Borland is going to be releasing C++ for Linux, according to this InfoWorld article. We'll be seeing more details at LinuxWorld in NY next week. The article doesn't mention whether this will be C++ Builder for Linux, or 'just' a command line compiler. No matter what, this is a sweet thing. I wonder how it will compare to gcc? (I wonder if it will be able to compile the kernel? :-) ) If it's the whole C++ Builder shebang, I wonder if there will be an Open Edition? Borland's Community site has a blurb about this. There's no comments at the Borland community yet, but some interesting commentary might pop up there."

Comments

Oh man...

[pb]

Borland has always put out wonderful tools, and really worked hard on making their compilers optimized on their platforms, but I think they've missed the boat here. This is most likely for easy porting of other applications written with Borland tools to Linux, because Linux already has a solid toolchain of its own. Regardless, I hope they get back on track.

What I miss most is the old text-based Borland IDE. That was the most productive development environment ever. RHIDE is close, but wasn't stable on Linux when last I checked.

Re:Oh man...

[robbyjo]

I think that Borland is trying to make its fan "feels like home", creating the "illusion" of being "cross platform". Thus, developers seeking to embrace Linux but reluctant to lose their Windows market can easily be lured in. When Linux gets stronger, Borland already has had a real good head start.

BTW, old text-based Borland IDE can be "simulated" using Twilight scheme.

Re:Oh man...

[ipfwadm]

What, we can't use another compiler (which may or may not be better than gcc) and possibly an IDE?

Us: "We need more companies to release products for Linux!"
Borland: "OK, we'll release our C++ development environment!"
Us: "No, not you, we don't need your product, we've already got that."

Even if you never use it, it helps raise the visibility of the Linux platform when big-name companies like Borland are releasing Linux products.

Re:Oh man...

[pb]

I agree that there's nothing wrong with having more tools out there. However, I sincerely doubt that many Linux users would pay to install a third-party C++ compiler suite when they already have the standard C++ compiler for Unix (g++) free and already bundled with the system. This fact alone significantly narrows Borland's potential audience on Linux.

Factors that might change this:

(1) Borland releases it free of charge or under some open source license; this is a possibility, but isn't clearly stated in the article--perhaps the command-line compiler will be available free of charge, which would encourage many Linux enthusiasts to try it out.

(2) Borland's C++ compiler supports advanced features not in gcc, such as compatibility with Borland's existing C++ compiler for Windows, better support for templates, better optimization, you name it. I already mentioned that this product might be aimed at people porting applications already written for Borland's compiler.

However, the main problem I have with your point is your imaginary conversation; you neglected to date those statements. That first statement was made years ago! At the time, Linux was not very well known and companies were just starting to take notice of it. Borland took a survey and started work on Linux products. Then other companies actually wrote and marketed Linux versions of their products whilst Borland was busy having an identity crisis (remember Inprise?). This also caused Borland to lose credibility with some of their long-time supporters, who likely ported their applications to Linux with some other product (like g++) and forgot about Borland/Inprise. Only now are they waking up and marketing this product again!

Therefore, I sincerely hope that this is a sign that the old Borland is back, and I hope they release a wonderful product, and gain massive support on Linux, and kick the gcc/g++ development crew into high gear to keep up. But understand if I fear the worst, especially from the vague tone of that Infoworld article, where they pretend that Linux doesn't already have a decent C++ compiler. :)

Re:Oh man...

[Arandir]

...because Linux already has a solid toolchain of its own.

I see the monopolists are out in force today. A language standard like ISO Standard C++ is a Good Thing. A single compiler that becomes a standard is a Bad Thing. When there is no room in Unix for an additional compiler, the end is near.

If Borland C++ (the stand-alone compiler) won't be free then there probably won't be many users. It won't be shipped with your Redhat Subscription Service. But it will still have a place, namely with those that think choice is the first attribute of freedom. And if it is free, then expect it to be widely used.

Gcc will finally have competition. It might actualy spur GNU into action to improve their compiler. Most of you guys here are too new to remember the history of gcc. Only a few years ago gcc *sucked* at C++. The unwritten by very official stance policy of GNU was that C++ sucked so don't bother. There was little standards conformance. But someone in the GNU crowd did have a clue, and forked the compiler. Before you knew it, egcs was being used more than gcc. Eventually the two merged back together, but I hope GNU learned its lesson.

This Is Very Good!

[Lethyos]

Borland's IDEs (baring of licensing crap ;-) have always been exceptional. Current opensource IDEs are decent, but they are no where near the quality.

It comes down to maturity. Borland has been making powerful IDEs for a very long time. Development for opensource IDEs however is a fairly new thing (KDEvelop is good, but it is still fairly unreliable and not as featured as I'd like).

After years of tweaking, Borland's got it down pat.

Re:Market

[qurob]

can someone explain to me why they would use it instead of gcc

On many UNIX workstations, GCC makes slower/much slower code than the system vendor's compiler.

Many people argued the speed/size benefits of Watcom's DOS compilers compared to DJGPP, the (DOS port GCC)

Resume Item

[kenneth_martens]

It's not clear (at least from the sketchy information in the article) if there will be an Open Source/free version, but I hope so, and here's why: currently my university requires us to use Windows in our computer science classes, mainly because Microsoft gives us a lot of expensive software for free (if Microsoft makes it, students probably have access to it--Visual Studio 6, Visual SourceSafe, SQL Server, Windows XP Pro, ...)

That leaves people like me--who prefer to run Linux instead of Windows--at a disadvantage. I have to have a dual boot system, and I have to reboot to Windows every time I need to hack out some code for a class. Now, if Borland releases their C++ for Linux and makes it free, I know I could convince a couple of my professors to ditch the Microsoft stuff and use teach the class using Linux and Borland. That would enable me--and the rest of the university--to gain some practical experience coding on the Linux platform, and not just on Windows. Don't get me wrong, there isn't anything wrong with knowing how to code using Windows and Microsoft Visual Studio (in fact it's probably a good resume item), but I'd like to get familiar with some alternatives before I enter the workforce.

Re:Resume Item

[Ronin Developer]

Word has it from the 2000 Borland Developer's Conference, that Kylix was going to be Delphi on Linux. Next in the queue was going to be C++Builder on Linux. During that same conference, the core C++ compiler had been built and demonstrated compiling and running natively on Linux. That was two years ago.

Since that time, we have seen Kylix and Kylix 2 released as well as Delphi 6 and a new C++Builder. The fundamental piece was the use of CLX to make the code cross platform between Windows and Linux. VCL code simply will not port. And, the VCL never worked cleanly between Delphi and Kylix. CLX was the answer to this.

I expect that the upcoming release will be C++Builder on Linux. That means it will have the same look and feel as C++ Builder on Windows. Yes...a GUI oriented development tool with all the wizbang designers that many of us have come to love.

I'd also like to point out that Borland made it clear that they were not out to replace GCC. Their aim (well, 2 years ago), was to make a development tool that enabled developers with a Windows background migrate to Linux and bring their application development skills to the Linux platform. There was alot of talk about whether the libraries would be link compatible with GCC. They didn't have an answer that most of us wanted to hear. But, like I said, that was two years ago.

Borland is position themselves to enable developers to enter a new market. While the MS folks are concerned about pushing .NET out the door, Borland developers will already be developing Web services and database applications for both Linux and Windows and beating their competitors to the punch.

Will these tools be an immediate big hit with Linux users? Doubt it. It takes a lot to effect a paradime shift of that magnitude. But, you will see Windows developers porting their code to Linux and opening up new markets. Eventually, the die hard people will see the advantages of using a tool like C++Builder or Kylix in a corporate setting. And, if we are really lucky, we'll see Borland making their .so's compatible with rest of the Linux community. The whole point of doing a C++ version is simply that the majority of Linux developers use that language. But, they ported Delphi over first (ala Kylix) because the majority of their customers are Delphi users.

Guess we'll all have to wait and see, eh?

RD

Re:Compile the kernel?

[AYEq]

The kernel is not written in pure C, even though it's portability would make you think so. It is writen in C with a ton of GNU extentions. So the kernel is really tied to gcc. (which actually makes it more protable because gcc runs on a ton of machines)

Heve a look at XWPE

[root_42]

And it even has been floating around for YEARS. Look at some screenshots of it here. I think it might be what you are looking for.

How many people actually use Borland C++?

[djohnsto]

I'm sure this will marked as troll, flamebait, lame, whatever, but I'm actually curious.

How many people actually use Borland's C++ products currently? Of those that do, is this just brand loyalty from the Windows 3.1 days? I've been part of product teams (all using C/C++) developing on Windows, Mac, and various unices, and I've never seen Borland being used anywhere. The last Borland product I've seen used was Turbo Pascal for DOS back in high school.

This isn't meant to start a flame war, I've just never actually seen a Borland C++ product being used, and am curious how big their market is. It may be that the Linux version would actually outsell the Windows version due to lack of competition. And it would totally rock if they released the Borland C++ builder IDE that supported not only the Borland compiler, but gcc and icc (intel) as well.

Needless to say, if they do release the IDE, I'll be very interested to see how well it works. I've tried KDevelop, CodeWarrior (older version - 5.0?), Anjuta, a couple other gnome things, etc. And I'm sorry to say none of them allow me to be as productive as I am with VC++ (with the VisualAssist add-in). CodeWarrior was probably the worst (I hope for their sake 6.0 was better), and KDevelop the most mature. However, none of the open source efforts play nice with cross platform projects (damn it, I don't WANT the make files in the same directory as the source!!!), and are terrible when dealing with large projects. If Borland's product can deal with large cross-platform projects, I'll be a happy camper.

Not necessarily....

[Micah]

Actually this was discussed on the borland.kylix.non-technical newsgroup a while ago. The aim is apparently to be able to compile ANY C/C++ Linux application, in fact the complete system, including the kernel. Thus it will need to emulate gcc's extensions.

We'll see if this turns out or not. That's just what I recall reading in discussions.

But if so it would be pretty sweet, assuming you're not a Free Software zealot (which I am, kind of, but I can see some coolness factor in this). If the pull it off, someone will be able to build an ENTIRE Linux distribution with their optimized compiler. Everything could run faster.