Non-Traditional Career Routes?

Dave Bieler asks: "With such a broad range of interests in science and technology, it was not easy for me to decide on a major in college. Currently, I am an Electrical Engineering major at Penn State, however I have considered several other majors: Computer Science, Computer Engineering, and Physics. Since science and technology is booming, it may be possible to get into a career in an area other than that traditionally associated with certain majors. ex - a Physics major becoming a Computer Security specialist. I'm curious to hear about any careers that were preceded by non-traditional paths." Speaking as an Electrical Engineer who decided to drop that and go into computers, this question strikes a bit of a chord with me. Has anyone else gone to college intending to prepare for one career, only to fall into another, either by luck or design?

Comments

Good Question...

[ImaLamer]

Don't we get these questions at least once a month asking about:

"What should I major in"
"Is this major better"
"What did you do with your major"
etc...etc...etc...?

I just seems to me that we do. Mod me down, karma cap lets me be like this :)

Re:Good Question...

[Anonymous Coward]

We go through the "career drill" about once a week. This is getting old.

The point is....get a degree in a field you have interest in, work in that field, if it sucks, leave and go elsewhere. Life doesn't present barriers you can't overcome with enough determination.

Re:Good Question...

[brianvan]

Yea, but life is rough like that.

Consider this:

I majored in computer science. Had a totally futile experience in getting a job in my field. So, I was forced to accept a job with my best friend's mother's company. This is not something I'd normally do (because of pride and friendship concerns), but I gave it a shot. It was a position working in the shipping area of a warehouse. Not a glamorous job.

It worked out fairly well at first. I applied my computing expertise and intuitive skills to fix up all the shipping systems, and as a result I'm now the shipping manager of the company four months after my first day. I'm about due for a performance review, a raise, and a bonus. Plus, I love the people I work with (for the most part) and I don't hate my job.

But...

Not to sound spoiled, but I don't know if there's any real advancement for me in this company. I mean, I might eventually get promoted to being an assistant warehouse manager, or perhaps a program manager in the office, but that doesn't mean I look forward to working a couple of years at both my current and future possible positions. I simply don't see myself going in that direction.

Additionally, our warehouse manager resigned, and now we have an interim warehouse manager that has no idea what technical improvements I've made to these shipping systems. Furthermore, this new manager blames me for random things in front of company VPs, walks away from me when I'm talking to her, and dumps unreal amounts of work into my lap. Sometimes it seems like she doesn't even know what my major was in college.

I would find it easier to program 60 hours a week than to work in a warehouse 60 hours a week, no doubt. The 10 - 11 hour days are wearing me down. I like my job, but I'm not THAT passionate about it.

However, I can't quit. I'm getting shit on and people have said I should quit. But I have to pay rent and car insurance. The job market is that tough such that I can't rely on it to give me a decent job right away. Just last year, I looked 9 months for a job in ANY FIELD and didn't find one. Temp agencies wouldn't employ me... they would rather hire people with business skills than comp-sci skills, I was told. I had to work at Starbucks 40 hours a week to make ends meet. I can't go back to that now.

That's just a personal anecdote, but in times when the economy is sour, it really is hard to switch careers. So I don't blame college students for wanting to hit the nail on the head the first time around. Everyone wants to do that, but with the way things are now, life is a lot easier if you get on the right career path early.

If I had decided to stay near my University and stick to computer science for sure, I'd be making 50% more money and I would have had a job right away. And I may or may not have been miserable with such a choice, but perhaps the money would have made it a sweeter deal. (Of course, I hated my University and the area that it was in, so it's not a regret that I didn't take that path. I'm too much of a city kid.)

And there's nothing that gets you a job or boosts your salary more than being well trained and educated in the field you want to enter. I'm sure all the journalism-major web programmers are finding that out the hard way right now. (Not that there's anything wrong with doing that, but managers and HR execs tend to disagree)

Yes, in a good economy, you have flexibility. But it's hard to have a job that sucks while you wait for the economy to get better. Once again, I don't blame anyone for doing some research to avoid getting stuck in that position. It's a smart thing to do.

Also, computer science as a major can be a messy conglomeration of a lot of different fields and interests (and people), and many people find it hard to find a focused interest in such a ball-breaking major. But that's a whole other story.

Re:Good Question...

[sacherjj]

If you are spending so much of your time and money in the process, I think it is an important question.

I started out as an Electrical Engineering major. Around my Junior year, I started loosing the drive and was getting burnt out. I took a year off for a CO-OP where I did both EE and CS work. It gave me some time to decompress from my 20-22 hour academic schedule and I decided that I wanted to write software for a living. I finished up my EE degree, while taking CS classes where I could fit them and interviewed with CS Consulting firms. My take on engineering is that it is problem solving with fixed set of tools. This is true with mechanical, chemical, structural, electrical, and software engineering. By getting a EE degree, I have a wide breadth of knowledge than a CS major, but I quickly surpassed many CS majors in computer and programming knowledge, just by applying myself at work.

It worked great for me and I really enjoy what I'm doing now.

More people move into CS

[shaka999]

I'll probably get some heat off this sd but in my experience its easier to move towards CS with a different degree than the other way around. I know of a number of people with various engineering degrees now doing CS for a living. I don't know of anyone with a CS degree doing mechanical or electrical engineering though.

I had much the same problem deciding a major while in college. I ended up going for an ECE (Computer Engineering) degree. Its really a mix of CS and EE which worked great for me.

lines of work

[jd142]

I have a master's degree in English Literature, with an emphasis on Early English Literature and Folklore. I have presented a paper at a conference, had it published in the proceedings, and was probably going to pursue a doctorate.

But I met my wife, moved to the city where she lived and needed something to do. Pursuing a doctorate in her city would have been problematic (Ask me about in-state school rivalries sometime you want an earful.) so I went in to law school, figuring if I made it out I could do wills and real estate transactions.

While there, I worked on the college's computers. This wasn't a big leap since I had been using and playing with computers since I was making sprites move on my old Commodore 64 and figuring out how to cheat at Jumpman. I turned that part time student job into a full time job and dropped out of law school.

So that's the story of how a guy who used to have the tale type index numbers memorized now sets up webservers, writes code for a Novell network, and when needed does helldesk.

Re:Poli Sci to Computers

[Skyshadow]

Don't let anyone fool you - poli sci is a worthless degree...

That's like saying that pre-med courses are useless, 'cause you can't do anything with just it. Poli sci degrees need some grad work to be useful.

I've seen several people use it as a starting point for some quite interesting careers.

Too much focus on majors nowadays anyway...

[jcronen]

Maybe you all don't agree with this, but I think there's way too much focus on 'majors' these days. Educational institutions spend too much time trying to groom their students for specific careers, with new "IT", "Web Publishing", "Biotechnology", etc. majors. Whatever happened to "Computer Science", "English", or "Biology"? Considering that most employers do some degree of on-the-job retraining anyway, doesn't it seem pointless to have these new 'custom' majors?

I have a physics degree, and I work with XML developing a web solution for insurance companies. I find that day-to-day, I use none of the specific knowledge I gained as a physicist, but every day I use the problem-solving skills, observation skills, etc., that I gained.

Colleges and universities will need to learn that there's only so much they can do, and that education continues when the student receives their sheepskin.

Libraries need techies

[jfrumkin]

Libraries are in dire need of programmers and system administrators - the values of libraries closely resemble the values of the Open Source movement, and libraries have traditionally been the overseers of information. Now, with the corporate sector moving in, the face and nature of libraries and librarians is changing. Unfortunately, librarians are slow to accept these changes, due to the need of a new set of skills, overprotectiveness of their traditional duties and roles, and because the unknown is always a scary thing. The more librarians-to-be who acquire technology skills in relation to libraries, the better chance libraries will continue to thrive and maintain their role as champions of the freedom of information.

What I did ...

[rosewood]

I graduaded high school class of 2000 and I had no clue what I wanted to do. Sure, I knew I had to go to college, get a degree, etc. I couldn't be humpin it at some store for the rest of my life. Well, I had been screwing with computers for some time so I said "sure! why not?" and signed up to be a Comp Sci major at my local university. God that was dumb. In my 5hr calc1 class I realized that I hate math. I had been always okay with it, and with good teachers had been able to noodle my way through pre-calc. However, when paying $500 for a class - i realized it sucked - just a little too late to get a refund.

Thats when I realized something very interesting.

I had taken 4 years of Spanish in highschool, a year in 8th grade, and a few summer plus program classes. When I started classes I was offered to start in a 300 lvl spanish class. I took Grammer 210 to be safe and went from there. What was sweet was that I got retro active credits from Span 101 up to 210. I got 18 credit hours for the price of 3. I then found what I wanted to major in: Spanish.

Now, before you laugh, let me point out that I realize this: It is like majoring as undecided. With a major in spanish, and then I can minor in whatever, including another language, the sky is the limit. Lets say I get burned out on computer shit and just want to use them in my free time - well, with a comp sci degree, that would be too bad so sad. With a language degree, especially in Spanish, I can get a job really anywhere. If I want to work for Boeing, Sprint, etc. I am in like flint. If I want to work for FBI, CIA, etc. I just need to minor in Criminal Justice. Even then, Its not a requirement. If I want to work in the tech sector, I am fine there with a degree and my tech experience.

If all else fails - you will find me teaching for my alma mater for $25k a year (in KS - that goes far) and summers off

Do what you enjoy

[splattertrousers]

You'll waste your college years if you treat it like a career school. Get a degree in whatever interests you most. If you're really worried about your career, take a couple computer classes on the side or something.

Mathematician turned Software Developer

[nullspace]

Since I was 11 years old, I had a insatiable desire for mathematics. I devoured every book I could get my hands on. Once I made it to high school, I felt compelled to advance myself through self study. This lead me to compact four years of high school mathematics, including Calculus, into two years. I spent the final two years of high school taking college-level mathematics courses.

Needless to say, I thought I was destined for a career as a mathematician. During my second semester in college, I took an introductory course in C because I thought it would be interesting. I wanted to learn more about programming since computers were a hobby for me.

A few weeks into the course, I learned that I had a knack for programming. I think it satisfied a primal urge I had to read, learn, and build new things. After this realization, I decided to become a double major in mathematics and computer science. I must say I have not regretted this decision once.

My former love has now become my hobby and my former hobby has become my love. I would have never imagined that this would happen. To anyone debating whether or not they should change majors, I say follow whatever your instinct tells you. You can always tack on another major or just switch completely. You will regret it if you do not follow what you truly desire.

Is it a university or a trade school

[hacksoncode]

The more I think about it, the more I think that my alma mater (Caltech) had the right idea about these weird specialized degree areas. They have 1 major called "Engineering and Applied Science" that covers essentially everything from CS to CE to EE (though there's a separate EE program too) to aeronautical engineering, to mechanical engineering, etc. If you want to take specialized classes go for it (in fact, you almost have to choose some specialty in order to meet the degree requirements).

Not too many schools seem to take that approach, and it's really sad, because universities shouldn't be trade schools. The goal of getting a bachelor's degree should be broad learning, mostly learning how to learn, actually.

If you're concerned about exactly what you're learning, I strongly suggest that you re-examine your priorities. Sure, you'll probably want to focus some of your energy on learning methodologies that are helpful in your intended field. But what you really want to do is learn how to learn.

It's a sad reality, though, that specialists are more highly regarded and paid than generalists.

I'm a hiring manager for software developers. As such, My favorite degree for someone to have is a generalist engineering/science degree with a focus/minor in CS. Second would be a CS degree, followed by CS/EE and EE alone. My experience is that people who chose specifically to learn the science of programming while in school are more likely to be good programmers than those who chose to focus solely on EE, Physics, etc.

Generally speaking though, I doubt that this is because they learned about CS in school. I think it's just that good programmers are more likely to seek out such degrees than they are to seek out degrees in Physics, etc.

I don't mean this as an insult to those people. Many of them are "brilliant" programmers. They can hack with the best of us. But, frankly, programming is almost the smallest part of being a software engineer. Design and debugging will take up much more of your time in real life (the more of the former you do, the less of the latter you will have to do in general).

Hell, some places, meetings will take up more of your time, which just goes to show that people skills are important even for geeks.

I suppose I'd have to say that for the high tech computer industry, CS/EE would be the degree that's most likely to be offered by your school that is the most flexible and most transferrable to other areas. At least, it's probably the most likely to get you interviews.

What you do at that interview is really what will determine whether you get hired, though. Learn to be witty and urbane. Learn to think outside the box. Learn how to read documentation and find obscure solutions in it. Learn to be arrogant about your ability to learn anything anywhere (just be sure not to be "arrogant without cause" :-). Those things will help you a lot more than learning to program or design circuits.

Classics to Comp Sci

[piggy]

I majored in Classical Civilization (specializing in Latin and Rome) for my BA with the intention of going into publishing. After a year at a major talent/literary agency, I realized that I was in the wrong industry. I had no official computer courses on my resume; I quit, took one, and got a job as a Software Engineer at a large Aerospace company. They paid for my MS in Comp Sci.

The point is that you should study what you love. Learning how to learn and how to synthesize disparate solutions into a single elegant answer or how to even approach a new problem is more valuable than learning a language or getting other easy-to-acquire technical skills. Save that for your spare time. If a company is convinced that you can intelligently solve problems, the fact that you have a Physics degree rather than a Comp Sci should not matter. Just remember that the important things to learn in Computer Science is the theory, which you can usually learn through books. Don't let anyone tell you that you have to learn specific languages or programs; those are tools, not skills.

Russell Ahrens

One story, perhaps relevant...

[s390]

is that I entered college intending to major in Physics. I had the test scores, prep courses, and grades, and was granted a full four-year scholarship at a prestigious College.

Then they screwed up. I was lumped into an "experimental" program that rushed a bunch of us through first year Physics in the first semester, first year Chemistry in the second semester, all in Freshman year. Six months later, few of us could recall much Physics. It didn't help that the Math Department used a different symbology from the Science Departments, either. Long story short, I told them where they could stick their rushed Sciences program (the faculty there had decided that this wholesale abuse of students was the proper response to Russia's Sputnik - after discussing the matter for about ten years). But I still had them on the hook for the full four-year scholarship.

I graduated in Philosophy after _finally_ writing the thesis that this particular school required of all Bachelors candidates. Along the way, I played some poker and some pool (I'm still almost good), hit some decent parties with a few stunning women (my friends didn't know how I managed that), used and lightly dealt drugs among friends, rode a nice motorcycle, traded roommates to share a dorm room with my girlfriend, read and wrote about Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, Kant, Marx, etc.; that was a great time.

[To all you young guys in college now: while it's a different era, be really good to the first girls you date at school, I mean _very_ nice, if you get the chance and get my drift. At my college, the ladies restroom in the Library had two lists on the wall: a Green List, and a Black List. I got on the Green List, so I met lots of women while I was there.]

The school had an IBM 1401 computer with a Fortran compiler. The Physics Department was still trying to figure out how to use it for anything instructional. As I recall, they assigned us to calculate a pendulum equation, in Fortran, using punch cards, not realizing that the trig and log functions had been broken by Seniors before graduation. It was also understood that most guys would end up working in the Defense establishment, but I wasn't very enthusiastic about building bombs, no matter what the salary.

Summer before my Senior year, I got a job mounting tapes for a local service bureau on second shift. They had a Honeywell 200, 4' high X 4' wide X 20' long, 32K magnetic core memory, a card-reader and an optical-tape reader for input, 5 X 1600 bpi tape drives, no disk drives whatsoever, but a line printer. Well, I learned how to program it, hacked a datecard loading routine in H200 Assembly language, plus logic to ensure that multiple updates of the master tapes always ran in the proper sequence, built them machines for reviewing their optical tape files, supervised operators, learned COBOL, extended their specialized accounting applications, gambled to drop my student draft deferment only to draw a high lottery number, and watched billions of dollars flow from the CIA to Air America through a regional airplane leasing/services firm (whose small town accountant we happened to serve) while being thankful that I wasn't in uniform or otherwise anywhere near places where people were shooting at Americans.

My former Economics professor offered me the job as Director of my alma mater's Computing Center. I told him thanks, but no, battered about a little, got a job programming COBOL, taught myself IBM S/360 Assembly Language, got promoted to Systems Programmer, rolled out a statewide financial network, etc., etc. After several interesting jobs later, I've spent the last 15 years consulting for IT VPs, CTOs, and CIOs.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I believe that all you have are your values, honor, and personal integrity. Let them guide your career choices, and you will always walk tall.

Technical degrees

[Orangedog_on_crack]

I know a lot of people get knocked for just getting a technical degree, but it's a very good way to start for some people. I got started a little late on the higher education track. When I was 25 I got sick of drifting from one no-future job to another. I didn't want to end up delivering pizza for the rest of my life so I decided to get my ass in gear and go to school to study electronics, something I had always been interested in. I went to Devry and completed the associates degree program for electronic technicians because it was took a little less than two years. My plan was to get my foot in the door at a good company that would pay for part of the cost for me to continue on to Devry's BSEET. A few months before I graduated I got a job with one of the telecoms (one that survived the .com crash) as an equipment installer. Since I was well versed in electronics in general I was able to become familiar with a lot of the hardware, I moved from a field installer to coordinating equipment purchasing and logistics of storing and shipping the stuff to the field because the people that were doing that didn't always know what to send and when to send it. After more than a year of doing that, a head-hunter offered me a program manager job at another company. When I tried to turn in my notice at my company, they wanted to know what it would take to keep me. I told them that I wanted to get into engineering, thinking that they might offer to pay for me to go back to school. Instead they promoted me to an entry level engineering position and trained me on the job. This has worked out pretty well so far. I'm now 32 and if I do go back to school it will be to learn how to write code since the money seems to be in software. The telecom job market is scary right now. If I get laid off this year (very likely) at least I'll be able to fix TV's or something like that. Now I'm a little nervous about getting into another field at 32 when most of the entry level jobs for programmers are filled by people in their early 20's. God I'm too young to feel this old!

Some majors are detrimental to your goal

[enqueue]

I too had quite a time trying to decide upon a course of study. I chose biology for my undergraduate degree, and even accomplished some successful research/got my name in a few publications... I was happy with the academic atmosphere.

Then for my graduate degree, I decided upon computer science. What an incredible mistake!!! I do not reccomend a small state university if you try this, because I never heard the end of how I could never be a "real" or "successful" computer scientist, no matter what my grades or accomplishments were. THIS CAME FROM THE FACULTY WHO WERE SUPPOSED TO BE MENTORING ME!

I worked at IBM for a bit, and now I believe them.

My exit evaluation? "Linux is a nice hobby, but real computer scientists use Windows. You really need to learn how to program for the Windows platform."

I think they were about as forward thinking as the professors I had.

Just for grins I think I will learn how to program for the Macintosh platform instead. X seems so much cooler because it is unixy.

Become a CPA or a lawyer. You will always find work, and have a resonably good career.

Trust me. Stability and comfort are much more pleasant than uncertainty. Study what interests you in your free time, but train for a career that is tangible.