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Voltage Frugal PCs?
"I'm going to leave this thing on 24x7 using electricity that I'm paying for so power consumption becomes a real issue. Which CPUs, chipsets, memory technology, and hard drives provide the thinnest power profile for an always-on machine? I'll be running NetWare because it provides the stability of Linux/BSD, exceeds the configuration ease of Windows, and provides the security and worm/virus immunity of...well, NetWare. That'll let me set up that yummy iFolder [novell.com] and have constant access to my data from anywhere on the Net. It also means I'll probably need to stick to an AMD or Intel CPU since AFAIK the Transmeta and Cyrix/VIA chips, like most IS managers, don't really get NetWare. CPU speed isn't much of an issue. 633 MHz should be plenty. Am I the only miser setting up a server?"
A shuttle SV24, since that thing runs on a fairly low wattage power supply but has integrated ethernet, small form factor, quiet operation, and plenty of other stuff useful in a server. It also looks cool and supports PIIIs up to 1 ghz.
Remember, there were no nuclear weapons before women were allowed to vote.
I was under the impression that the amount of power to the CPU was nothing compared to the power to the Monitor.
Your best bet is proabaly a laptop with the AC adapter lugged in to the wall. Those are already designed to be low power usage machines.
Open Source Identity Management: FreeIPA.org
"Is there someone marketing a low-powered PC solution (CPU and monitor)"
I think some manufactures built computers that run on only 12V rather then the 120V you get from that outlet in the wall. They usually go by the name of "LAPTOP". Rumor has it they can run for hours without being connected to power grid at all! And I hear they have a "sleep" mode whereby they can run for days using just a trickle of electricity! They come with a built-in "LCD" monitor! And they are very quiet as well, I hear. (Or rather, don't hear.)
Of course, with all those features, they cost a bit more then your standard tower & CRT monitor, but some think that it is worth it. I hear that a company by the name of Toshiba makes some that are well regarded in the marketplace. I believe that other companies make "Laptop Computers" as well. Maybe you could try a Google search on that term?
Yup, that's exactly what I'm doing for my home firewall. I happened to have an old 120MHz laptop sitting around, so instead of buying a LinkSys router for my cable modem, I'm using it with two network cards.
Now if I had a four-port PCMCIA ethernet card, I wouldn't even need a hub.
So I'd like to throw it out to the Slashdot throng
You know it's time to go home when you wonder for a minute what a slashdot thong looks like.Theres no answer to your question. Everything depends on the way you use your machine. A processors power consumption depends, among others, on the processing load. In most modern OSs (I dont know if it applies to Netware, but am sure that it applies to 2000/XP and Linux), when the kernel notices theres nothing to process, it issues a HLT instruction, replacing idle cycles with a suspend mode. Then not only the processor takes less energy, but it also cools down.
For older Windows versions, there are some programs that cool down the processor, thus lowering power consumption.
So the power consumption depends on you OS, how you use your machine, etc, etc. But lets face it. Nobody really cares to [desktop] computer consumption, because it usally takes more money to build a low power PC than the savings itd result in a lifetime.
For instance, the cost difference between a $159 17" CRT and a 15" LCD, wich takes less power, simply would be enough to pay you computer power bill for years, IMO. And also, do you really think server monitors should be turned on 24x7 ? The server probably will be locked in a room. Get a cheap CRT and simply turn it off when not using. Its much cheaper.
If the laptop has a healthy ammount of RAM, it shouldn't hit the HDD that often for a firewall should it? Get a decent laptop, pull out the hard drive, beef up the RAM, and boot from a CD-RW or something. Run the OS from a RAMdisk. I wouldn't think a laptop would have any trouble running 24/7 in such a situation.
Yes, I run laptops 24x7.
Yes, I use a laptop as a Nat box/firewall/wireless router, goes without saying, really that it never been turned off for the past 4 months. Is that unusual? I don't think it is.
Yes, my daily machine is a laptop that never gets turned off. When I close the lid it goes to sleep, screen off, hd spun-down, etc. I would be suprised if this was actually unusual, laptops are made to run all the time, going into sleep mode rather then being turned off. That is part of the feature set, IMHO.
Here is a list of computers that meet energy star guidelines:
n te nt/computers.htm
http://yosemite1.epa.gov/estar/consumers.nsf/co
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Apparantly your experinces differ from mine, and legions of sysadmins who worked with Netware for the decade or so it was the de facto standard for networking DOS machines. It is its stability that made it a legend. Not to mention that it also was damnfast on the hardware of the time. Most systems had uptimes measured in years... there was one case where they accidently bricked in a working server, and nobody noticed until several years later.
Sure it was limited, but then, so was the hardware... we're talking a different era and different needs.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I'll give you the reason that it was ghe de facto standard: the God-awful NOS's of the late 80s, early 90s. Anyone remember (*shudder*)Lantastic? Banyan?
Netware *could* remain stable somewhat if you didn't look at it crosseyed, or try to run anything other than the stock software. God help you if you were stupid enough to try to use it as some sort of appserver. When Novell's business plans changed to include internet services, I almost peed my pants laughing so hard.
I really like how the Question poster boasted about the "security" of Netware. When I was deep into Netware, there were a ton of exploits to gain priviliged access on it. (Hint: do a search on google for Netware hacking).
You do have a valid point about speed. Netware4 and Netware3 ran in ring 0 , along with all of your NLM's. (Hence the beginning of the crashapalooza) When everything ran in ring 0, nothing was protected, although you did gain mighty fast access times to hardware ports.
I often used Netware as an alternative developement platform, providing that you didn't need any useful libraries. It provided a solution for writing ring 0 code, which once mastered, could be done somewhat quickly.
G
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
Pardon me, but mission critical servers are not the scoop of this thread. According to your definition, this article is plain wrong.
If you read this article carefully, you'll notice the poster is concerned with power consumption, wich hints he doesn't dream of using redundant power supplies. He was even considering to use the VIA chipset. Yet, his last phrase was: "Am I the only miser setting up a server?".
Using your [mis]conception of a server, this wouldn't be a server. But, hey... Big news ! A server does not need to have a $10K price tag. A server does not need a 9" rack mount. A server can run without ECC very well, thanks.
A server can be much cheaper, probably like the submitter wanted. He wanted a home server. Yes, there are things like home networks, with just 2 or 3 clients. Even small companies, that won't go bankrupt if they have a 2 second downtime, can stand servers like this.
And, for your info, the definition of server is something that serves. It can serve webpages, in the case of a - guess what - web server, or file in the case of a - yes - file server. Get a TCP/IP stack on a Commodore 64 and you can have a small server.
A good way to get a quick estimate is to view the capacity usage percentage on a UPS (via monitoring). APC Back-UPS Pro and Smart-UPS models support this, so you could check via the software (nice tools) what is being used, and calculate the VAs or Watts being used... or you could in-line a Fluke with your power line.
Once you know the power being pulled, you can extrapolate that out to a month/year, and factor in your local $/kWH. Depending on where you are, and what you are using, I'd expect $5-20/month...
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Did you actually read the description of what he's going to be running? iFolder... that means Netware 6. This is not 5.0, or (god forbid!) 4.0 - this is a new OS, fully multiprocessor aware, running Apache & Tomcat!
I have Netware boxes (NW5.1 with support packs) in production, with thousands of active users, that regularly achieve uptimes measured in months. My lab tests to date predict even better results for NW6. We typically are only forced to bounce servers for three reasons: power outages, support packs, or faulty apps (server-side virus scanners & backup programs are big culprits here).
"His name.."'s comments do not match my experience at all. Netware is admittedly vulnerable to poorly-written NLMs, due to Ring 0 access, but that's how they get such great raw speed out of the OS. And you can EASILY develop server apps to run in Protected memory spaces nowadays. I believe that Apache and Tomcat are even configured to run in Protected memory spaces by default on NW6.
Please stop spreading FUD about Netware - Novell's marketing department trips up enough as it is. And I did not miss your comment that you developed for Netware - NLMs, I presume? Yes, Netware will easily let you shoot your own foot off, along with the feet of everyone else running on the same box - but so will Windows etc.
I can't speak to *BSD, having never used it in production.
The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life
I'll try to give some pointers here, since nobody else is actually contributing anything useful.
First, turn off the monitor. Always. That'll suck a lot of power up.
Don't wory about the power supply capacity, switching power supplies only draw what they need.
For a processor, the latest from Via are pretty frugal, plus you can get away with just a heatsink.
I never quite figured out if you could put an embedded pentium on a desktop pentium motherboard. The socket is the same, it's more a matter of weather you can get the motherboard to supply the right power, so that might be an acceptable alternative. You can't put any of the laptop/embedded pentium II/III/4 processors on a desktop motherboard.
For a motherboard, I'm not 100% sure. I think you probably want a i810/i815 motherboard with the integrated video still there and not much else integrated, except perhaps ethernet. You might have to email the manufacturer of the motherboard to get exact power specs, however.
CD-ROM drives, floppy drives, and hard drives all don't suck up that much power while idle. So don't stress too much about that. They only draw power while they are in use. Although, to be carefuly, you can always remove the CD-ROM and floppy drives.
Try not to put too many pieces of RAM in the system. Ideally you want one DIMM that's big enough. That will generally eat up some power, too.
And don't install anything you don't need. You don't need a sound card in a server machine, so don't put one in.
Gentoo Sucks
Did you actually read the description of what he's going to be running? iFolder... that means Netware 6. This is not 5.0, or (god forbid!) 4.0 - this is a new OS, fully multiprocessor aware, running Apache & Tomcat!
I certainly did read it. I did assume that NW6 was his target, and I must admit that I haven't use NW6, but figured one of a few things would be true.
(a) NW6 (in spite of their claims) is a rehash of 5. Same Crappy Code, Same Crappy Station, complete with all of the security exploits.
(b) NW6 is a brand-spankin-new OS, by the people who brought us a 27Mb client install package, and world's worst performing distributed hierarchical database(NDS)
(b.1) If this is a brand-new OS, what kind of security holes does it have?
(b.2) iFolder. Whoosh. I just imagine the security holes with that.
We typically are only forced to bounce servers for three reasons: power outages, support packs, or faulty apps (server-side virus scanners & backup programs are big culprits here).
My Point Precisely!
Run software at your own risk!
And you can EASILY develop server apps to run in Protected memory spaces nowadays.
I agree, you can develop server apps to run in protected space nowadays. Problem is, unless you want to do it in Java, kiss goodbye any useful external libraries.
I believe that Apache and Tomcat are even configured to run in Protected memory spaces by default on NW6.
Mighty nice of them to put them in protected memory. By default even. Wow.
Netware will easily let you shoot your own foot off, along with the feet of everyone else running on the same box - but so will Windows etc.
Netware goes that extra step: It places the gun in your hand, loads it, cocks it, puts it to your temple, and then waits till you're distracted and makes a loud noise behind you.
Devlopment on Windows, while um...fun, doesn't put the gun barrel to your head. In order to start wreckin' stuff, you have to try.
I can't speak to *BSD, having never used it in production.
I'm not saying BSD's the holy land of software, as I pretty much beleive that ALL OSes SUCK.
Netware just happens to suck more than :
*BSD
Linux
Windows 2k
Windows XP
I'll give you that it sucks less than the 9x/ME line of Windows, and probably somewhat less than the designeer OSes (BeOS, AmigaOS, etc...).
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
It was a file and print server with some rights management. It was damn good at it, too. Apps? What apps - this was the days of DOS and flatfile databases. Foxpro was the highend for the majority of installations, and it ran just fine. Remember - different era, different focus. Sounds like you came in right at the end, when Netware was rightfully reaching the end of its useful lifespan. Computers could do more, and a new NOS was necessary.
When I was deep into Netware, there were a ton of exploits to gain priviliged access on it.
Yeah? And? Other than on edunets, which generally had iron and ran *nix, there wasn't really a problem. In most offices, there's a secretary who knows all the passwords anyway. This was *before* the days of interconnected networks, and there was simply no way someone other than an employee could get in. No outside networks - at most, a 9600 modem or a digiboard if you were fancy.
Different era, different requirements... this hodgepodge that we're running right now - XP, Linux, Solaris, BSD, whatever you think is "good" - 15 years from now, you'll think of it as the dark ages. You have to "configure" things, and "plug them in", and "name them" and I/O like mice and keyboards and such only work with one device, and each device has to have one! How quaint! What pieces of shite we're running!
No. Netware was the top of the heap for its time and target... as was IBM, Digital, Burroughs, Apple, and Commodore. Even Tandy and Radio Shack had their moment of glory - there were offices full of TRS-80s. Some last longer than others - but things change. I have no doubt that those older and wiser than I can say that about every aspect of life, but in the industry, I can personally attest to that.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
CPU speed isn't much of an issue. 633 MHz should be plenty.
Holy crap, I just _upgraded_ my main server to a PPro 200. What are you people doing on these machines?
(It's replacing a 486/66, and the only reason I got rid of that was to get a second IDE channel and some PCI slots instead of ISA. Otherwise, the 486 would have been fine.)
--saint
I've been running a Compaq Armada LTE 5380 (P133) laptop continuously for at least a year now, with no apparent problems. It gets very light use (display off 99% of the time, but hard drive doesn't spin down), but has been powered on continuously - without any apparent problems yet.
I played Diablo2 for 14 hours straight on my PowerBook with one break in the middle to go to the bathroom and stretch. When we were finished the dinner tray I had the PB on was pretty warm to the touch but the system was running just fine. It isn't one of those metal encased G4 models either, it is a slightly aged Lombard 333 with a fairly new IBM TravelStar in it.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
It costs money, lots of money, to test an operating system for compatibility with a CPU. Why bother testing fringe CPUs when 99.9% of your customers are running on Intel or AMD. Many companies don't officially support their software on AMD systems. It will probably work but it wasn't tested on that platform.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Oh, don't get me wrong - there *were* app servers, but most LANs I saw back then ran WordPerfect and a custom written DOS app as their primary uses. The custom app was an insurance quote program, a farm report app, law reference program, or a terminal program to the mini or mainframe (which hosted the "real" app). Netware did some app serving, but the most commonly loaded modules I ever saw was an anti-virus program and a backup program.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
A laptop with 14" LCD, 256M, 20G, DVD, 1GHz, PCMCIA, and USB will cost you around $1000 and it comes with its own built-in UPS. I think, at best, after you have added all the bits and pieces, you'll be able to pull even with the SV24, and it will be a lot more work.
I've lived in my current apt for 2 years now. Elec is separate from heat, so I know exactly how much I've used.
Since last year, I've added a DSL modem, netgear firewall/router, two 4 port hubs, an 8 port switch, a p166 running FBSD (on 24x7), a celeron 500 with Win98 (on 24x7), a 500W UPS, and several monitors which are usually in powersave mode.
Last December (2000), I used 187KWH. That's really low, the average "home" uses about 720KWH in my area. I don't use much electricity, all my appliances do use it sitting idle; I should probably just unplug them all and save myself a bit more cash..
This December (2001), I used 244KWH. That's it. So my home network in total added roughly 60KWH for a month. That comes out to less than $3 (before taxes).
Of course, when I'm not actively using my systems, they're sitting idle (but not in standby), maybe serving 20 pages an hour or 20 emails a day. If your systems are more active, they will suck up more electricity, but I have no idea how much more.
Well, I hope that gives you some idea.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
If you live anywhere but inside the United States, switch the little red thing on the back of your PC from 220 to 110!! This will cause your PC to use *half* the voltage it normally would!!
(Translation: this article is poorly-titled.)
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Mind you, this was during the so-called
power crisis in which our electricity rates
in San Diego seemed to triple.
This has most certainly gone down after summer,
and I would guess that it is now costing us no more
than $5.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
I'm glad someone else noticed that...Remember P=VI, that's Power (watts) = Voltage * Current...
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson