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Followup To Bohr-Heisenberg Meeting
December writes "As a follow up to this slashdot article, "The family of Niels Bohr has decided to release all documents deposited at the Niels Bohr Archive, either written or dictated by Niels Bohr, pertaining specifically to the meeting between Bohr and Heisenberg in September 1941. There are in all eleven documents. The decision has been made in order to avoid possible misunderstandings regarding the contents of the documents."
See the Niels Bohr Archive at http://www.nba.nbi.dk/"
To separate, process, and manufacture the uranium and plutonium necessary for the A bombs, it required 32% of the US electrical output, 23% of the US Silver output (144,000 Troy Ounces was the figure I believe), and 14% of the US aluminum output to construct the plants (at Oak Ridge, Tennessee and Hartford, Washington). Remember this is 1944 people - height of America's industrial might. Now ask yourself if Germany could've done the same...
I think many Germans who were living in Germany in the 30s and 40s would balk at the statement that "almost the entire german population" were Nazis. There were very large numbers of them that opposed Hitler and Nazism, either privately or publicly (those who did so publicly were not around much longer however). Just because the leader of a country is something, do not assume that all, most, or even some of the citizens agree with his beliefs. As someone who has had to suffer life under an oppressive regime will tell you, you generally don't have much choice in the matter.
My other sig is funny!
That may seem like a mundane explanation, given what we now know about Nazi Germany and the power of nuclear bombs. But Heisenberg probably did not know the extent of Nazi atrocities and he also didn't know whether a real A-bomb would fizzle or bang.
It's tempting to see all of WWII in terms of villains and heroes. But most people were probably neither; they were just people trying to get on with their lives under difficult circumstances. Heisenberg could have been a hero or a villain, but he ended up being neither.
Also, it's quite likely that "member of Nazi party" in Nazi Germany is much the same as "member of communist party" in the Soviet Union. In both instances it was simply wise in terms of your continued survival to make pretenses about supporting the current regime. Even today in the USA there are elements of orthodoxy that one is better off appearing to support.
Failing to be of extraordinary moral courage does not make one evil. It makes one average.
People need to get a grip and realize that Titans of physics were mere mortals in any other area of human endeavor.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It is actually much more complicated.
Appearantly, the meeting was set up by Heisenberg in an effort to make it clear to the germans in Denmark that Niels Bohr was important and should not be touched, arrested or harrassed.
There was an official event at a german "cultural" institute which Bohr as he says "of course could not attend" followed by this private meeting at the Niels Bohr institute.
Also do not forget that there were another person in the meeting, and while his "memory" is as suspect as Heisenbergs, his recollection is the same.
Niels Bohr provably had possesed the data to indicate that a bomb would be possible for at least one year at the time, but was not in any way in contact with the allied program until he escaped from Denmark via Sweden shortly after and partly because of the meeting with Heisenberg.
It is also important to remember that Hitler did not appreciate science, engineering yes, but not science. It is unconceiveable that he would have dedicated the necessary funds to create a german bomb, without some pretty hard evience and demonstrations.
The claim that the nazi program was mostly for power-generation therefore sounds very credible.
Heisenberg were fully aware of these things, in particular that even if physically possible, the bomb would be politcally out of reach.
Therefore one cannot easily dismiss the claim that Heisenberg, convinced by nazi propaganda that the nazis would win, was merely tried to protect his old friend Bohr by getting him onto the victors bandwagon.
In other words: Heisenberg probably tried to say something between the lines and Bohr missed it, and Bohr being better informed about the real standing of the war was unlikely to be swayed anyway. (Bohr could listen to BBC, Heisenberg could not for instance).
I think the fact that no evidence has been found which indicates that Heisenberg actually did anything more than think about the bomb should be credited him, as for being convinced by the nazi propaganda, he was already punished more than fair is for that.
From Denmark,
Poul-Henning Kamp -- FreeBSD since before it was called that...
From my reading of the current material, and of other sources:
1. Heisenberg took a substantial risk visiting Copenhagen and discussing secret and dangerous information with Bohr. We don't know exactly what was on his mind, but he wasn't doing this lightly.
2. Heisenberg didn't like his fascist government; but he was still a patriot and wanted to do what was good for his people in the long run.
3. In 1941, it was a very reasonable conclusion that Germany would win the war. Most people feared this. It would not be unreasonable to plan accordingly.
4. Heisenberg was very, very smart.
5. Bohr was troubled by what he saw as inconsistent and inexplicable behavior. He was surprised and concerned, at the time and later, and he sought in vain to understand his friend's words and actions, which seemed clear but inexplicable to him.
6. After the war, Heisenberg felt bitter and misunderstood, and avoided discussing wartime events after having received censure from many sides.
Assume, for the moment, that in 1941 Heisenberg a) thought Germany would win the war, b) hoped Bohr was aware how serious a threat was posed by nuclear weapons, c) wanted to prepare for good humane postwar German physics, and d) deliberately but secretly focused German research efforts on avenues leading to peaceful applications. How would his behavior have been different? Who would have been aware of this lonely struggle, at the time or later? And, assuming this were all true, how bitter and frustrated would he feel after the war, being blackguarded for actions that (if all were known) should be seen as heroic?
The historical record is clearly ambiguous, and there are certainly valid interpretations of events that show him in a bad or foolish light. But this was an extraordinary man, dealing with titanic issues at an extraordinary time. I am more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. The great scientists I've known have tended to share a common trait: intellectual honesty, to the point of ruthlessness and even self-destruction if necessary. The great thinker is rarely petty of self-deceptive about important issues. So I have a hard time picturing Heisenberg conducting decades of revisionism to whitewash over bad behavior. I find it more likely that Bohr misunderstood his brief exchange with a troubled and tortured man, a man who was trying to do what he thought was right in a difficult situation. Bohr's own mystification with Heisenberg's actions is clear in the draft letters.
We won't ever have a certain resolution to this question, because letters and recordings only reveal certain kinds of information. The truth was hidden in Heisenberg's inner beliefs and motivations, but he chose to close the door on discussing such issues, after receiving what he perceived as unfair rebukes.
For me, it all comes down to a question of emotional and intellectual plausibility. Which 'plot' makes the most human sense -- Heisenberg as shallow, self-interested, incompetent, venal Nazi bureaucrat? -- or Heisenberg as an heroic, solitary, tortured visionary? Each version of history has problems, but look at the stature and reputation of this man before the war. He was larger than life. I hate to see him made so small in today's debate.
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld