How Many CDs Can You Burn at Once?

kfs27 asks: "In an attempt to help a professor of mine record and duplicate his lectures. I have been asked to put together a CD duplicating box. Commercial products seem to be very expensive and I figured a PC with some SCSI160 Cards (HW or SW Raid maybe), SCSI Burners and a 15K RPM drive (size not an issue) could do the job for cheaper. But the question is, how many CDs can you burn at once of 30 minutes, mono audio. 10 at a time would be excellent I think. More of course better. Cost is not a huge issue, as long as it's less than Commercial Duplicators, it's more of an experiment, but must be stable and easy to operate (I'd be willing to script up a frontend)."

Comments

RAM Disk, not Hard Drives

[Zack]

With the prices of RAM being as low as they are, you might want to consider building a ram disk to store the data that's going to get burned. That way you don't have to worry about the speed of the hard drives, the ram will always be faster.

We have one box here with 4 SCSI burners in it with a 700 meg ram drive. Everything works wonderfully in it.

PCI bus is your bottleneck...

[stienman]

The only bottleneck you have then is your PCI bus.

You'll probably be fine with the 10 drives and one HD as long as:
1) You use a ramdisk
2) You make sure each burner has at least 2MB of buffer

With the 2MB buffer, fast scsi, ram disk and DMA you should run into no problems even with 24 or 32 speed burners. You'd be better off, of course, with a faster/wider PCI bus.

Integrate a robotic loading/unloading system, and 24x drives - you'll get 10 cds every two minutes. Your class of fifty can get their CD on the way out the door. It may be more cost effective to get twice as many drives that run at half the speed.

-Adam

Re:PCI bus is your bottleneck...

[hamjudo]

Don't make this too hard. The PCI bus on a cheap motherboard is 32bits at 33Mhz, or a peak bandwidth of 132Mbytes/second. A 1X CD-ROM is 44.1Khz * 2 channels * 16 bits (2 bytes) or 176Kbytes/second. If the PCI bus were perfect, it could drive a single 748X CD writer, or ten 74X CDWriters. It's not perfect, but you'll easily get more than half of the max bandwidth (assuming modern PCI cards). Since 32X is the fastest CDwriter available today, you can easily drive 10 of them with quite a margin.

If they're new CDwriters, they'll have protection against making coasters, so the penalty for running too many CDwriters, is they'll slow down.

If you're good with metal working tools, you can make a double wide case that can hold 10 drives. Plug a bunch of IDE controller cards into the PCI bus. Note: IDE cables are limited to 18 inches. So you have to do a little design work, before you start cutting metal.

If you're not into metal working, just take a few cheap PC's, max them out with CDwriters and network them with 100base-T ethernet cards. A little glue, and it will be like one big machine. This design can be expanded to hundreds of drives.

I'm assuming student labor, so you won't need a robot disk changer.

Let the students burn...

[martyb]

Let the students burn the CDs themselves. Just set up a server (ala napster), tell the students to download the lectures. Then, if the students actually want to burn them to CD, they're free to do so (set upa FAQ, if need be).

Why CDs?

[Jerf]

Why CDs? 30 minutes of mono audio, encoded in 32Kb/s MP3, is (30 * 60 * 32 / 8) = 7200 KB (with the last "/ 8" to get us to kiloBYTES instead of kiloBITS). There are MUCH better codecs then MP3 for this at this bitrate, I just use MP3 as a convenient and easily obtained example. Record the lecture, convert to (lossily-compressed-audio-format-of-your-choice), and load it on the web.

At the end of the semester, give each student ONE CD with the entire course on it!

Nowadays, if your student can use a CD, they can play an MP3. And even a 7MB download is doable over a modem connection. (And you might cut that down to perhaps 1 or 2 MB or less by using a codec designed to do voice-only, but you'll probably have to pay for it.)

don't use a RAM disk

[MSG]

First, I have to say that I agree with the comments already posted suggesting that you just compress the audio and make it available for download. It's much more efficient. Especially when semester end comes and students want to review data from several lectures, not swapping disks frequently will be more convenient.

I'd mod them up if I didn't have to say that RAM disks are a bad idea. If you simply add the RAM to the system, then the OS can cache the data in the most efficient manner possible. As long as you have the RAM to cache the image, the OS shouldn't be reading it from the drive constantly. Using a RAM disk is actually harmful to system performance, because the OS may not be able to cache disk sectors that are frequently needed. Statically allocating the RAM only works if you have more information about disk use than your OS, which you almost certainly do not.

Key points highlighted

[autocracy]

• Buy enough RAM to hold the entire image of whatever you're burning - but don't make a RAM disk to store it in. The OS will do just fine caching it (my twin 18 gig SCSI drives that I got on the cheap evidence this - my computer barely reaches for them after the first hour of uptime. REALLY fast!).
• SCSI burners wanted. This might even come out costing less because of the fact that an IDE card can only take 4 devices, while you'll be able to push several times that on SCSI. IDE will suffice for the HD if you're only burning one image at a time though.
• Avoid theoretical numbers. Worst case scenario all the way. Assume that even if you start all your burners at the same time, they'll have drifted by the end of the cycle. And as you do more and more reloads, I can see the timings differing. This won't affect reads of the image (it'll be cached), but writes will hurt. Get a SCSI card and wide enough PCI bus (shoot for 64/66) to take it. Sure, theoretical measurements say you'll hack it with a 32/33, but keep in mind that others things run on that bus besides just what you plug into the slots - and that's assuming 100% efficiency.
• SCSI stressed again. Bus mastering will help your CPU SSSSOOOO much. And yeah, I can't vouch it'd be that great on the ide -> scsi deal - but it's cached in RAM and RAM -> SCSI will help the proc.
• Hardware you'll want: 1 Gig of RAM (why skimp? A full CD is 700 meaning that you'll probably buy 768 (multiple of 256 - derr!), so shoot for the gig to play with. Any CPU P-III or better will do, maybe even a P-II. I'd just go pick myself up a decent Athlon though. As for the Mobo - Dual Athlon model. No, you won't use that second proc, but you will use the onboard Ultra160. If you can get one with dual channels - bonus! This is because you'll be capable of handling 30 drives.

Consideration: You'll have to have something to change out the discs. Set up with 10 drives, you should be able to EASILY do this for ~$2000. It's up to you to figure out way to change the discs automatically, though! And good luk on the case :)

More information Needed ... IDE DRIVES?

[fwc]

There's a lot of information missing from the posters query.

First of all, if these MUST be in standard CD-audio format, then the answer to the question about how many disks you can burn of 30 minutes of audio in a given time can be calculated by dividing 30 minutes by the speed of the reader (say 15x), and then adding a minute or two for lead-in lead-out, toc, loading, etc. In this case, a 15x drive should be able to burn a 30 min CD in about 3-4 mins. A single drive should be able to turn out around 15-20 an hour.

The poster did say he wanted to do this on the cheap. The bandwidth bottleneck in a PC environment will most likely be the PCI bus. Even with two IDE drives on an IDE chain, you should be able to keep up with the burning at 15x (150MB/min per drive). If I was going to do this on the cheap, I'd get me a used Pentium-II/Celeron class machine, or possibly a higher end pentium machine, get 4 IDE chains in it, and load it up with 6 CDR drives. Total cost should be under $1000, assuming you use linux or freebsd or similar. ($600 for drives, $50 for controller card, $350 for used machine). You may need to add a little for memory expansion, as I think the idea of a Ramdisk (300Megish) would be good, but memory is cheap (512 total MB should be sufficient). If you need more drives, add another machine. If you find that the machine can't keep up with this many, drop one or two and put them on a second machine.

If these are for delivery to students which aren't at the lecture, or for review, perhaps the best thing would be to not focus on bulk duplication, but instead to figure out an on-demand system. What I mean is that if a student WANTS the lecture, then they can visit a computer at a specific location, select the date of the lecture, insert media and wait 5 mins for it to spit it out. That would be *Really* cheap (linux box w/CDR and suitably sized hard drive).

Alternatives to what you want.

[Linuxathome]

Are you just burning audio or are you also including powerpoint slides or images? I'm also a student, and the lectures we have (1 hour lectures at a time) are recorded as wav files and then encoded as mp3 files at a 16K bitrate (trust me, I've listened to them and they work fine for lecture audio) and at that bitrate, the techs managed to squeeze 1 hour in 5 MB's (well, they also squeezed the sample rate down during recording too). That's the size of a regular music track at 192K bitrate, 44.1KHz samplerate--in other words, just the perfect size to publish online and download. Add less than 1 MB for the powerpoint file and you have enough info for most of the students to skip class and just listen to audio while flipping through the slides at home. Let me emphasize again that this is already implemented at my medical school and lots of students skip class due to this feature. ;-)

Ok, my question is: why spend the money on CD duplicators? I think it's more worthwhile to spend it on a computer station with all necessary drives for all available media that the students use. You can even turn it into a webserver if it has fast internet access. That way, all the lectures will be on this station and the students would only need to go to it and pop in their zip disk, jaz disk, cd-r or even better, a cd-rw, and then be able to copy what lectures they want. So, I think rather than spend your time trying to build the cd-duplicator, spend your time on writing the software/program that is running on the station that will allow the student to easily choose what they want and then instantly hit the "Burn" or "Copy" button and copy it to their media. In my view, this station is a much better use of your time.

Actually, if you wanted to make it a truly killer app, then instead of copying the mp3's and the powerpoint files separately, have them integrated with, say, a macromedia program that the students can run independently (without the need of either a mp3 player or even powerpoint) and it'll automatically play the audio and show the slides cued to the audio (no need for the students to guess which slide the prof is on).

But then again, I could be totally offtopic and your reasons behind building this cd-copying system far outweighs my suggestion. Anyway, these are just my thoughts.