Seeking University Jobs in Mathematics?

NegativeK asks: "I'm currently a high school student, soaking up all of the math I can. Via a state program, the education department pays for my enrollment in a semi-local university, which is allowing me to take four mathematics courses at a time. My question is this: am I chasing a white-elephant? How much does it take to get a job in theoretical mathematics? What does it require to get a stable job in a university to do math research? This also applies to other theoretical positions; how competitive is the workplace in a research university?"

Comments

It's tough

[one-egg]

I'm really the wrong guy to answer this (the right ones work down the hall from me), but given the dearth of responses I thought I'd take a stab at it. Our math department is carrying out a faculty search right now. IIRC, they are expecting 200-300 applications for the job. Purely on statistics, it beats the hell out of the lottery but you shouldn't quit your day job.

However, the statistics are a bit pessimistic. About 50% of the applications are pretty wildly unqualified (the extreme example being MS holders applying for a Ph.D. position). If the search is looking for particular expertise and you have it, another 50% of the survivors will get tossed out. Obviously, it's still tough, but not impossible -- especially if (a) you're good at what you do and (b) you persevere.

You can also do research outside universities. In fact, if you don't have a desire to teach, it can be better to avoid academia. Some industrial research labs want mathematicians. There are also pure industry spots: for example, I think Wall Street is quite fond of math right now (though a lot of it might not be research, depending on how you define "research").

A lot of the above applies to other "paper and pencil" disciplines, such as CS theory.

An upcoming bright spot is biology. After centuries of trying to get a handle on a complex topic, the bio folks have finally started to develop models that are tractable with the help of computers. If you develop an interest in that particular sort of math, you might discover that there is huge demand by the time you graduate. The field is hot enough that we've added a new bio/math major.

Above all, though, my advice to all people seeking a career is the same: follow your heart. You're going to be doing it for 40 years or so, and that's a lot easier if you're having fun. Also, getting from high school to a math Ph.D. is going to take around 8 years, maybe more (I took 13, not counting time spent working, but I'm in a time-consuming field). Who knows what the job situation is goinig to look like 8 years from now? Maybe Enron Jr. will be hiring all the mathematicians it can get its hands on to develop models of how to scam the energy market. :-)

Re:It's tough

[scruffy]

I agree that landing a Math faculty position is very tough. Currently, a CS faculty position is much, much easier. Many universities have had open CS positions go unfilled for years due to the dot-com madness, while the Math positions get 100s of applicants.

That said, you should work on what interests you the most. It is very difficult to put a lot effort into a subject that is not interesting to you.

I did it.

[ogrizzo]

I got a PhD in (Pure) Maths at Brown in 1997 and I got a tenured position (in Europe, though) 2 years ago, so I suppose I'm qualified to say something: if you like the idea, definitevely go for it!

The market is really, really, really cyclic: there are years when Harvard graduates with decent teaching experience cannot get a job (like the end of the 90's) and there are years when it's difficult to find decent candidates.
Here in Europe it's easier since the cycles are different in each country, so people move around.

If you want to stay in the US (which I didn't, BTW), I'd advise you to get a MSc in Computer Science while working towards your PhD: at least at Brown (but I suppose this is common), you may do that for free. In this way, if the job market is really bad, you can always find a decent (and so much better paid) job: a good part of my colleagues did so, and many ended up getting a job in the real world.

Feel free to write me if you want to ask some more.

Very

[Ratbert42]

When I was working on my PhD in Computer Science, one faculty opening at a smaller state school had 70 applicants. A faculty opening at our large state research school had over 300 applicants. The market is tough, but it can be done. If you want to go to a research school, it's all about publications and grant possibilities.

If you can show a breadth of research in your field, you'll boost your chances. I saw the review process when we hired faculty. Most applicants had one research idea, which had been fed to them by their advisor. The best applicants had several viable (fundable) research ideas to pursue.

Grants and Pubs

[Red_Winestain]

The way to get an academic job in Math is the same as in most other scientific fields.

1. High School: Very high GPA, Very high SATs, Very good letters of recommendation, so that you can...
2. Get into a college/university with an excellent undergraduate math program. Then, get very high GPA, Very high GREs, and three letters of recommendation from faculty with PhDs, so that you can...
3. Get into a university with an excellent graduate math program. Ignore the university's overall reputation; go solely with the department's reputation. Math isn't my area, so I can't give a recommendation. However, some departments in the really prestigious schools suck. Some departments in somewhat obscure state schools trounce the Ivies. Get solid advice. Then, get publications. The more pubs the better. Do an outstanding dissertation in a reasonable amount of time. Get excellent letters. Then...
4. Get a job. I like to tell our recent PhDs that once they get a job, all they have to do to keep it is to do 2 dissertations per year plus bring in money plus teach! There will be several hundred applicants for each job. Post doc experience can help. Then publish, publish, publish, get grants, get grants, get grants. Teaching is secondary. In many places, reverse the order: grants count more than pubs. Some places are even specifying how much in grant money you must bring in.
5. Get tenure. Tenure is all or none: if you get it, life is good and it is why people put up with all the crap above and the below-industry salary and the outdated infrastructure and the administration. If you don't get it, you are a failure and will find it hard to get any other job in academia.

If you like doing your own research, you cannot beat a tenured faculty position. If you don't mind someone else telling you the general research area, then go into industry.

My 2 cents

[Lictor]

I figured I'd chime in with my two cents worth since not too long ago I found myself in exactly the same spot as you. I loved mathematics but was very skeptical about being able to make a living doing pure math. Heres what I did:

As an undergraduate I double-majored in pure math and computer science. I took every theoretical computer science course I could get my hands on and by my 3rd/4th year of undergrad I was pretty much doing exclusively math. Yes, 2nd year specifically involved suffering through many 'coding' courses, but in the long run this isn't such a bad thing. A computer is a wonderful tool for a mathematician and knowing how to program one well is actually a very desirable skill (note, I still hated the programming classes ;) ). I enjoyed TCS so much, in fact, that I ended up doing my Ph.D. in computer science and not mathematics.

Don't let anyone fool you... theoretical computer science *is* math; and to be honest, its math that I found more interesting than any of my 'pure math' courses. As far as courses, on the math side I took as many abstract algebra courses as I could and on the CS side I focused on automata theory and formal languages (with a good helping of recursive function theory and semantics).

There were a number of posters above who mentioned mathematical biology and bioinformatics. For me, anyway, this was bang on the target. There is a huge need for competent mathematicians who are willing to learn a little bit about biology. We are at the point where biology is beginning the transition from a qualitative to a quantative science and we *need* good models.

Again, don't be fooled into thinking you have to do applied math. Sure, coming up with a model is 'applied' in some sense, but once you have the model you get to investigate it and try to prove properties that you think it has (e.g. recent work involved showing that the gene-descrambling process in hyptochious ciliates is computationally universal. Proving that is fun mathematics).

And of course, once you get a job and a grant, theres nothing preventing you from also researching other topics too (my 'academic hobby' is foundations of mathematics... but you don't get too many grants for that ;) ).

Job prospects in Computer Science (academically speaking) are good right now; though its certainly tougher as a theoretician than, say, a software engineer. But, if you can market yourself correctly, I think its easier than pure math.

I hope that stream-of-conciousness rambling was of some value to you.

Thanks a bunch.

[NegativeK]

I just wanted to say thanks to all that provided helpful information. =) Through the gathered knowledge, I believe that I'll continue with math in mind, take a few CS classes, and keep with my study of particle physics for the heck of it (all subject to change.) =D Again, thanks for your input.