Chinese Explorers 'Discovered America'?

FLY9999 writes: "According to British historian and map expert Gavin Menzies, Chinese explorers discovered America way before Columbus did. He will disclose his information to the prestigious Royal Geographical Society (RGS) at a conference next week."

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Description of Zheng He's fleet from book

[Anthy]

If anyone is interested, here is what the book "Thunder from the East" by two winners of the Pulitzer prize wrote about Zhang He's fleet: "Between 1405 and 1433 Zheng He commanded seven major expeditions, involving the largest navel fleet that the world would see for the next five centuries. Not until World War I did the West mount anything comparable. Chinese records show that Zheng He's fleet included 28 000 sailors on 300 ships, the longest of which were 400 feet long. By comparison, Columbus in 1492 had 90 sailors on 3 ships, the biggest of which was 85 feet long. Zheng He's ships also had design elements such as balanced rudders and watertight bulwark compartments that would not be introduced in Europe for another 350 years. The ships sailed as far as East Africa and could have gone around the globe. It is difficult to conceive of their magnificence, for each of the grandest ships-the "treasure ships"-had nine masts,huge red silk sails, 24 bronze cannon, carved wooden animal heads, and painted sides with large "eyes" in front to see the ocean ahead. The treasure ships had luxury cabins with balconies for the top officers and for foreign princes who would be brought home, and these ships were backed by specialized vessels including horse-carriers, troop transports, cargo ships, two kinds of warships, and water tankers carrying drinking water. The crews included 10 translatrors, 5 astronomers, 180 doctors and pharmacologists to treat the sick and gather foreign herbs, and even 2 protocol experts to ensure that the Chinese treated foreigners with just the proper degree of respect. The sophistication of the fleet underscores how far the East used to be ahead of the West. In a broader sense, it indicates the stakes for the entire world as Asia struggles to get back to its feet. The present situation-with Asia making up a minor part of world's economy-is unusual in historical terms. For the great majority of the last few thousand years, Asia has been far wealthier and more advanced and cosmopolitan than any place in Europe. Several ancient Chinese cities had populations of more than one million at their peak, and by some accounts the Tang Dynasty capital of Changan had almost two million taxable residents in the later part of the first millenium. In contrast, as late as 1500 the largest city in Europe was probably Naples, with a total population of 150 000. So ancient Asia was the longtime champion of commerce and technology, and one of the central questions is whether it is now ready to recover a part of what it lost. ..... Chinese records show that Zheng He's fleet reached the Kenyan ports of Malindi and Mombasa. Zheng He knew about Europe from Arab traders, and he could have continued around the Cape of Good Hope and established direct trade with Europe. But Europe was a backwards region with nothing to offer, as the Chinese saw it. China wanted ivory, medicine, spices, exotic woods, even samples of African wildlife, but it had little interest in European products like wool, beads or wine. So China turned up their noses at Europe."

Chinese nautical technology

[danny]

A good book for those interested in Chinese nautical technology is the third volume of the abridgement of Needham's Science and Civilisation in China . That looks at the Chinese invention of the compass as well as shipbuilding and the great voyages of exploration.

Here is one quote relevant to your question:

... in 1962 an actual rudder-post of one of Cheng Ho's treasure-ships was discovered... This great timber is 11 metres long ... Using accepted formulae, the approximate length of the ship on which it has been used comes out between 146 metres and 163 metres depending on different assumptions about the draught of the vessel.

Even 163 metres is only 530 feet, of course, but it shows that 1000 feet isn't that unbelieveable.

Danny.

Re:Chinese nautical technology

[markmoss]

This makes me suspect that the accepted formulae may be a bit off when it comes to these ships. I am not a naval architect, but I find the idea of 500+ foot wooden ocean-going ships quite dubious from a strength of materials standpoint. The problem is, the ocean has very big waves; even an aircraft carrier has times when one big wave is holding it up in the middle with both ends out of water, and this will alternate with both ends in waves and the middle hanging. Wooden structures just don't scale up in strength well, and I don't think the Chinese managed to build better than the best 19th century shipyards. Find the whole keel, and I'll believe it -- but if it's strong enough, I would think it was so thick and heavy as to make the ship unusable for cargo and too expensive to ever be built except by imperial decree. Written records would have to be carefully evaluated, to make sure that neither errors of measuring units nor poetic license had exaggerated the size.

Re:So?

[maxpublic]

So what? How is this any different than what a conquering people have done to a conquered people a thousand times in the past? You're saying that scale alone somehow makes the whole thing more 'evil'?

And 80% of the Native American mortality wasn't due to slavery, or genocide, or the use of biological weapons. It was due to the fact that Native Americans had no resistance to common, resistable diseases among Europeans, like the flu. By the time Lewis and Clark reached the Willamette Valley - the first white guys to see alot of America - almost 90% of the valley population had been killed by diseases spread from Native American population to Native American population across the continent. Not smallpox, which never reached the Willamette valley, but primarily the flu.

The Native Americans were no more peaceful than any other people on earth. In fact, a half-dozen or so various confederations were bloodily at war when the Europeans arrived. The Incans and Aztects brutally enslaved and murdered hundreds of thousands of people, allowing the Spaniards to pick up huge armies of allies when they marched upon these empires - because the Native Americans hated each other so much.

They were not peaceful or noble or any different than any other human population you care to look at. The only difference between them and, say, all the native peoples the Assyrians wiped out is that some subset of Americans has decided to engage in self-flagellation over the issue.

Max