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Perens Discredits Mundie's Attack On GPL

SaxMan101 writes "CNET has an editorial from Bruce Perens that quite handily dismantles Mundies attack on the GPL and the Liberty Alliance. He takes the time to make YA strong argument for free software which he backs up with real numbers. Well said, worth the read."

15 of 373 comments (clear)

  1. This is good by Hammer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perens is dismantling Mundies FUD in a calm, businesslike way. Let's hope that the debate on MS FUD stays this calm and reasonable

    1. Re:This is good by royalblue_tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It was calm and well reasoned. I still find it incredible that some people complain that they can't find a way of selling modified GPL software (even though they themselves didn't pay for the GPL'd code), while at the same time looking to sue anyone who tried to sell software built off the back of theirs without paying them.

      I just wish Perens had pointed out that since Microsoft have worked hard to destroy/assimilate all other competitors, it was only a matter of time that someone came up with a method of competition that couldn't be bought out by Microsoft. A method that couldn't be out-priced by microsoft.

      If someone says "It's my ball. Only I can say who plays", then in the end, either no one plays, or someone else donates a ball and everyone excludes the selfish one (who then presumably complains that no one understands them).

      So. When will microsoft release Office for Linux?

  2. Microsoft has blinders on by M_Talon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's obvious that Mundie sees the world through Windows-colored glasses. Software must be sold to get the money to make more software. How else could a software company work? If you can't license it, you can't gouge^H^H^H^H^Hcollect your due earnings. Oh, and the whole thing about people not working with Microsoft...if that's not a monopolist talking I don't know what is.

    Anyway, rant off now. It's good to see someone who can rationally tear down his arguement, and it's even better to see it on a fairly commonplace site like CNet. I think more and more people are realizing the snowjob Microsoft keeps trying to pull, and in the end that will be the thing that ends the monopoly.

    --
    Electronic Frontier Foundation for online civil rights information
    1. Re:Microsoft has blinders on by ergo98 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course Mundie sees the world through Windows coloured glasses, just as most of Slashdot's readership (including Mr. Perens) sees the world through open source coloured glasses: Biases are as human as life itself, especially when you're payed to have it (or you make fame by advocating a cerain bias).

      Having said that, I find Perens' editorial weak in substance or facts, starting from the first paragraph where he uses the public square "commons" as a parallel with GPLd software, which is ironic if you really think about: The commons was merely where you did you trade, trading cucumbers for gold pendants, and horses for a gaggle of geese -> The idea is that everyone has different skills and focuses, and commerce is how we all live full lives. The GPL software philosophy on the other hand, is one where software developers provide, and everyone else consumes (I recall a +5 posting on Slashdot some 2 years ago where someone told the story about how they explained the GPL to their dentist, and their dentist thought it was a great idea: Yeah, I'm sure they do. Now how about giving me some caps for free?). How humorous then to see Perens hold IBM up as a great example of the meshing of GPLd software and capitalism (with Linux being the "crown jewel", no less), when IBM is basically selling computing hardware on the backs of a bunch of basement programmers (I'm sure downsizing of the software development arm isn't far into the future) : IBM gains, the community loses. Yeah, I'm sure IBM does some token contributions to the Linux community, however I'd put a wager on them spending (many) magnitudes more painting penguins on sidewalks and putting cute Linux ads in magazines than they spend paying developers who contribute : Why would they contribute? Reality comes into play, and they won't see much reason to help Dell sell hardware too, now will they? Soon you have a prisoners dilemma with every company leaching but not contributing.

      The essence of all of this is this: Whether Perens and crew acknowledge it or not, what they are in actuality saying is that software development is an exceptional sector of our economy where regular rules needn't apply: Sure, sell your computer hardware, sell those coffee makers, buy yourself a nice new BMW, but don't you dare sell that software (and it is good to finally see someone in the GPL community acknowledge that the commercialization of GPLd software is next to impossible, as Mr. Perens states "And it's (deliberately) hard to commercialize GPL software."). As a software developer this infuriates me because Perens and crew are basically selling out software development as a profession, all to push an ideology and to act as spokespersons. On the receiving end, companies like IBM and HP, whose senior executives gleefully count the dollars gained from their absurdly, ridiculously overpriced hardware that is sold at thousands of times the raw material costs, hop on the Linux bandwagon : How very, very surprizing. And boy am I surprized to find that there are corporations that would happily replace systems that they paid for with GPL sytems: If these companies could pay a third world nation to enslave children to sew their $150 shoes (material and labour: $0.25) together, then they'll happily do that too.

      Mundies argument is that software as a valued good cannot coexist alongside the GPL, and in my opinion he is ENTIRELY RIGHT, as has been proven so many times (and Perens acknowledged in his article, which is quite the transition from prior GPL positioning which is that they were compatible).

    2. Re:Microsoft has blinders on by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You're infuriated! Are you sure that coffee you've been drinking isn't too strong :-)

      Whether Perens and crew acknowledge it or not, what they are in actuality saying is that software development is an exceptional sector of our economy where regular rules needn't apply

      Yes, I've made this explicit many times. It takes a pound of flour to "copy" a loaf of bread. In contrast, once you have amortized the cost of creating a piece of software, there is essentially no marginal cost associated with creating another copy. The result of this is that the current proprietary model drastically overvalues software. You complain of IBM and HP computers being overvalued with respect to the raw material cost. As we drive the market toward commodotized software, it becomes more competitive for hardware manufacturers. If they have high margins, isn't it because of anti-competitive factors like customer lock-in?

      Can we amortise the creation cost of software without a direct revenue capture per unit sold? The answer seems to be yes for a lot of people. And why would this be important? Because decoupling the money from the process makes the mechanics of collaboration a lot simpler. Collaboration works to distribute cost, making it tolerable, and improves efficiency by avoiding redundant development. That redundancy happens all too much for "in house" software, and businesses have recently realized that they can collaborate with their competitors on non-differentiating software. This is not to discount the entire "freedom" agenda, I simply need not argue in those terms this time.

      Perens and crew are basically selling out software development as a profession

      This smacks of the old guild system which operated to support costs rather than allow the free market to set them. It seems anticompetitive. But yes, if you want to consider me as selling out the software development profession, I'm doing it for the customer. People seem to forget that capitalism is supposed to operate for the ultimate interest of the customer, by keeping the costs that the customer pays as low as possible.

      Regarding your argument about software developers providing and everyone else consuming, most people are able to participate in a free exchange of information. In this same topic we've been carrying out a thread about how an illustrator can help.

      Bruce

  3. Strong argument? by platos_beard · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I think there's a strong case to be made for free software, but this ain't it. Bruce Perens touts the money saved by not buying MS software, but completely ignores the much more significant expenditures on people to administer all this software. Does it cost more to administer sendmail than Exchange? Apache vs. IIS? Is in-house development with VB cheaper to get the same results as Java on Linux?

    I'm not sure how the numbers balance out, but these concerns far outweigh the price of buying the software. If Mr. Perens is going to dip his toe in TCO waters, he'd be better be sure he can jump all the way in and not get himself drowned.

    --
    What's a sig?
    1. Re:Strong argument? by JordanH · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Without doing any real research, I couldn't say what the TCO issues really are. It's been my observation that sendmail is cheaper to maintain that Exchange, Apache cheaper than IIS, etc., but I don't really know, and I doubt that you do either.

      I just notice that they're always doing maintenance on the Exchange server, but I rarely hear about problems with the sendmail gateways here. Same goes for Apache vs. IIS.

      But, this is somewhat a distraction from Bruce's point. Actually, Bruce Perens in the article actually tries to avoid the economic issues and instead focuses on the control issue.

      It was Bruce's thesis that the control issues, through people benefitting from competition in those to support and extend the products they use, will lead to lower prices.

      I agree that the TCO issues are complex. In fact, they are too complex to really address naively. For example,

      • Is in-house development with VB cheaper to get the same results as Java on Linux?

      Please tell me... How do you get the "same results" with VB/MS as Java on Linux when the Java solution can be deployed across platforms, giving you potentially huge advantages in deployment flexibility?

      If, for example, you were able to deploy to near-zero administration Terminals based on Java/Linux and you needed to deploy tens of thousands of seats, who wins then?

      Sure, .net may do similar things someday, but what if MS starts ratcheting up the licensing fees? Any guarantees against it? With Open Source you always have the option of competing support groups or self-maintenance if a product requires extension or maintenance. This is dicey with Closed Source products where you are often forced to upgrade or have to live with the problems if the vendor has decided to take the product in another direction.

      You see, static analysis of what TCO is today is a secondary concern to the control you gain with using Open Source. I think that would be what Bruce might say, at least.

    2. Re:Strong argument? by WNight · · Score: 4, Insightful

      TCO is hard to calculate. I'm sure you can hire someone with IIS experience fairly easily, but you can't compare that to someone who puts "Apache administration" on their resume.

      The Apache admin is likely to be a lot closer to a full system admin. Someone who can bang together perl scripts to automate problems, configure a firewall to drop code-red packets that are DoSing the web server, and more.

      If all you want is someone to upload the output of dreamweaver, you don't need to go with IIS though. You can do a default install of Redhat, be just as secure as XP (wow, what a claim) and use any of the web-based Apache admin tools that provide as much of a GUI as you could want. And they're easily understood by someone who wants basic functionality and no hassles.

      But it's unfair to confuse a real admin skilled in a system, with a fresh MCSE who "knows" IIS because he's taken a test about it.

      Factor in functionality of the systems, and I think your little TCO argument falls flat.

      Besides, if you really want a cheap system that a junior employee could run you might as well outsource it or buy co-lo space for a box provided by your ISP. It's simpler, often cheaper, and provides for much things like the ability to use as much bandwidth as needed without having to have new lines installed. Makes it much easier to cope with a suprise Slashdotting - just the thing that can make (or break) a new business.

  4. Good by anpe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm pleased to see such a good piece of anti-FUD work aimed at managers.

    The articles explains clearly that the key point in GPL is :


    But this is not to say that the main benefit of Linux and other GPL software is lower-cost. Control is the main benefit--cost is secondary.


    This quote is the most important : GPL gives you _control_ on the library you've choosen to link with your project. The library is not subject to stock prices or whatever non-IT reason. If you don't want the new features : don't upgrade, you don't like the new direction : fork the developement tree ...

  5. Re:The GPL is bad...to WHO ????? by cperciva · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who is the GPL bad for ?

    I'd add at least the following to your list:

    3. Those who would like to use code, are entirely willing to give credit where credit is due, but haven't decided yet if they want to (or, legally, are allowed to) release their own code.

    4. Anyone who wants to see open standards. It was only the existance of free-for-any-use code which lead to the global use of TCP/IP -- back when every company had their own proprietary network protocols, the only reason they added TCP/IP support in was because they could do so (almost) for free.

    5. Anyone who wants commercial software companies to release their source code. Companies which operate by selling software are never going to GPL their code; they might, on the other hand, release it under a less restrictive license which would allow them to incorporate improvements back into their own codebase.

  6. Re:An interesting perspective by tshoppa · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If you drill down a bit you find this letter from a programmer that complains about Open Source.

    The most paradoxical comment within this letter is this:

    The RIAA wants its intellectual property (music) to be protected. Authors want their books protected. I want my industry's intellectual property to be likewise protected. Is this too much to ask?
    In other words, he think that the way to protect his intellectual property is to ask that it be illegal for others to give away their intellectual property. And this isn't too much to ask. Scary thought.

    He also seems to give the RIAA implicit control over all music, but that's another flame war.

  7. Mundie needs an economics lesson by Wateshay · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What Mundie doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) is how wealth is created. Simply passing wealth back and forth between companies doesn't create wealth. Paying taxes doesn't create wealth. Government spending doesn't create wealth.

    Wealth is created by increasing efficiency. If I pay you $10/hour to build widgets worth $3 a piece, and you can build 4 widgets per hour, then I make $2/hour profit. If you figure out how to increase you efficiency and make 6 widgets per hour instead of 4, my profit has now increased to $8/hour. This can then be reflected in increased wages for you, fewer work hours, or a cheaper product. Regardless, net wealth of the economy has been increased, since more output is produced from the same input.

    Where does the GPL work into this? Because one GPL application has effectively infinite supply, it drastically reduces input costs of production and therefore leads to a very high net increase in the entire economy's wealth. Commercial software necessarily leads to less wealth increase, because it has an artificial cost added to increase the producer's personal wealth at the cost of the whole economy's net wealth.

    Mundie's argument is that the artificial cost is necessary for software to get produced, because there will otherwise be no incentive for the producers to produce software. The thing he ignores, though, is that obviously the software does get produced. If OS software gets produced, then it is out there. It has increased the net wealth of the economy. That increase will never go away (unlike the commercial company, which could go out of business). If OS is not enough incentive for the software to get produced, or OS doesn't lead to a solution that is sufficient, then the demand for a commercial version will be high enough that commercial development will be supportable. There is room for both.

    Microsoft, of course, is just beginning to realize that the software they make is quite compatible with OS development, and there is no way they can compete with the efficiency of an OS product. Therefore, Mundie is arguing that we will all be better off if the economy's net wealth is held down in favor of MS's personal wealth gain. I just don't buy it :-)

    On the other hand, he's absolutely right that there may not be as high a demand for software developers in the future. So what. So, a few programmers may have to change careers. They're smart people (and yes, I am one), and shouldn't have too much of a problem finding work. Yes, it sucks for a few, but where would we be today if we always held back progress in favor of old, established industries. Not to be cliche, but I'm sure the development of the automobile sucked for the buggy whip manufacturers, too. Personally, I'll risk my long term personal stability for the chance of great wealth increases for both myself and the economy as a whole.

    --

    "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."

  8. Re:The GPL is bad...to WHO ????? by CDWert · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have to disagree.

    "3. Those who would like to use code, are entirely willing to give credit where credit is due, but haven't decided yet if they want to (or, legally, are allowed to) release their own code"

    Once again, write your own code, I have contibuted to GPL and NON GPL projects, I have had my code stripped and moved to proprietary products. Im not game here, if you want it to be yours, write it yourself, I no longer submit code to any BSD project, just for this reason, this goes to my second point to the letter.

    "4. Anyone who wants to see open standards. It was only the existance of free-for-any-use code which lead to the global use of TCP/IP -- back when every company had their own proprietary network protocols, the only reason they added TCP/IP support in was because they could do so (almost) for free."

    The GPL is not meant for the setting of standads, it was meant to provide commercial alternative, supported and developed by a group for public use.

    "5. Anyone who wants commercial software companies to release their source code. Companies which operate by selling software are never going to GPL their code; they might, on the other hand, release it under a less restrictive license which would allow them to incorporate improvements back into their own codebase"

    Thats fine, let them release it under ANY licence THEY want, its their code. Noone is under ANY obligation to release anything. Ive coded stuff that I wouldnt give to god or country, and things Ive done for companies I couldnt even if I wanted to. CHOICE is what its all about do what you want with what you own, but at the same time dont try to dictate terms about something you dont, (dont take this the wrong way, Im not talking about you)

    --
    Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
  9. Re:The GPL is bad...to WHO ????? by CDWert · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I write code, I can do whatever I want with that code,

    If I choose I can sell it, (Its value is lessened if any tom, dick, or harry can, and legally, get it elsewhere) I can do so.

    I can open source it, in doing so I am granting others the right to use it, Under whatever liscence I deem appropriate(remeber its my code)

    Or I can let it sit on my hard drive and rot. not much use there.

    But If I write the code, its my choice ho I make it available, If I am gracious enough to give it to the world, why should they dictate the terms under which they would like to use it ? That greed, and being ungrateful.

    I have MANY time seen things I needed similar solutions too and said damm be nice to use that in my project, but I couldnt, mine was proprietary theirs was GPL, so what, I wrote my own. No bitching no moaning, just an understanding its not my code who am I to tell someone else how to make the code their blood and sweat into available to me under my terms, I wouldnt do it and I dont expect anyone would do it to me.

    I am a capatilist, simple period. If I can make more money using open source I will, but if it interests dont meet mine, I will write my own code to fill that need.

    --
    Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
  10. Re:Depends on who you are by GSloop · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Frankly, I think that the CS degree should move to the Engineering department, and become a true software engineering degree. The CIS degree belongs in the business department. [I'm one of the latter.]

    But I've never understood the random ways that schools go about producing the CS people. Not that they're bad, it just seems to have no real standard.

    Software Engineering ought to be more like ENGINEERING! Not just throw code at the compiler until it sticks.

    I have faith, mostly, in the structural engineers, and the chemical engineers, and the electrical engineers. But software engineers?

    Here's an appropriate poke with a sharp stick...

    A DESIGN PARABLE

    Once upon a time, in a kingdom not far from here, a king summoned two
    of his advisors for a test. He showed them both a shiny metal box
    with two slots in the top, a control knob, and a lever. "What do you
    think this is?"

    One advisor, an engineer, answered first. "It is a toaster," he
    said. The king asked, "How would you design an embedded computer for
    it?" The engineer replied, "Using a four-bit microcontroller, I
    would write a simple program that reads the darkness knob and
    quantizes its position to one of 16 shades of darkness, from snow
    white to coal black. The program would use that darkness level as
    the index to a 16-element table of initial timer values. Then it
    would turn on the heating elements and start the timer with the
    initial value selected from the table. At the end of the time delay,
    it would turn off the heat and pop up the toast. Come back next
    week, and I'll show you a working prototype."

    The second advisor, a computer scientist, immediately recognized the
    danger of such short-sighted thinking. He said, "Toasters don't just
    turn bread into toast, they are also used to warm frozen waffles.
    What you see before you is really a breakfast food cooker. As the
    subjects of your kingdom become more sophisticated, they will demand
    more capabilities. They will need a breakfast food cooker that can
    also cook sausage, fry bacon, and make scrambled eggs. A toaster
    that only makes toast will soon be obsolete. If we don't look to the
    future, we will have to completely redesign the toaster in just a few
    years."

    "With this in mind, we can formulate a more intelligent solution to
    the problem. First, create a class of breakfast foods. Specialize
    this class into subclasses: grains, pork, and poultry. The
    specialization process should be repeated with grains divided into
    toast, muffins, pancakes, and waffles; pork divided into sausage,
    links, and bacon; and poultry divided into scrambled eggs,
    hard-boiled eggs, poached eggs, fried eggs, and various omelet
    classes."

    "The ham and cheese omelet class is worth special attention because
    it must inherit characteristics from the pork, dairy, and poultry
    classes. Thus, we see that the problem cannot be properly solved
    without multiple inheritance. At run time, the program must create
    the proper object and send a message to the object that says, 'Cook
    yourself.' The semantics of this message depend, of course, on the
    kind of object, so they have a different meaning to a piece of toast
    than to scrambled eggs."

    "Reviewing the process so far, we see that the analysis phase has
    revealed that the primary requirement is to cook any kind of
    breakfast food. In the design phase, we have discovered some derived
    requirements. Specifically, we need an object-oriented language with
    multiple inheritance. Of course, users don't want the eggs to get
    cold while the bacon is frying, so concurrent processing is required,
    too."

    "We must not forget the user interface. The lever that lowers the
    food lacks versatility, and the darkness knob is confusing. Users
    won't buy the product unless it has a user-friendly, graphical
    interface. When the breakfast cooker is plugged in, users should see
    a cowboy boot on the screen. Users click on it, and the message
    'Booting UNIX v. 8.3' appears on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be
    out by the time the product gets to the market.) Users can pull down
    a menu and click on the foods they want to cook."

    "Having made the wise decision of specifying the software first in
    the design phase, all that remains is to pick an adequate hardware
    platform for the implementation phase. An Intel 80386 with 8MB of
    memory, a 30MB hard disk, and a VGA monitor should be sufficient. If
    you select a multitasking, object oriented language that supports
    multiple inheritance and has a built-in GUI, writing the program will
    be a snap. (Imagine the difficulty we would have had if we had
    foolishly allowed a hardware-first design strategy to lock us into a
    four-bit microcontroller!)."

    The king wisely had the computer scientist beheaded, and they all
    lived happily ever after.

    Now that all the CS people hate me...I'll slink into the shadows.

    Cheers!