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Higher Learning, Online?
provell writes "An ad for the U of Phoenix online education program caught my eye the other day. I know the concept of online education isn't a new one but it seems to be growing more prevalent with each passing year. As an IT consultant at the age of 18, I didn't give myself much chance for college and I don't get much time in town to take part time courses. With the burst of the E-Bubble, I'm starting to notice an increase in hiring standards. Is a BS a necessary bargaining chip for the IT industry and are online undergrad programs widely accepted/adequate? Any thoughts/experiences would be much appreciated."
From my experience, the most important thing you can have is a personal reference at the company you are trying to get a job with. Let me explain.
I don't have a degree and have had a very difficult time getting a job. My friends with degrees have had just as difficult time finding a job. The job market is tight right now and basically no matter what's on your resume it's going to be hard to find a job.
However, if you know someone in the company at the very least you will get an interview (try sending resumes to various companies and see how many get back to you) which is a big step and more than likely you will get a good recommendation from someone the hiring person knows. I can't stress the personal reference bit enough. All the jobs I've gotten comes from knowing someone in the company (except the bookstore job but that was not computer-related and only $7.25 an hour).
So, my suggestion: contact everyone you've previously worked with and find out where they're working. Ask them if the company is hiring and even if they aren't contact them again in a few months. Things change quite quickly in the job market.
Finally, good luck and I suggest at some point you get a degree anyway. Pay scales are often based on degrees. I plan to get mine starting next year.
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Jump in and get yourself a small degree (like InfoSystems in the Business College). Most business courses (if not all) are probably available at night school or saturdays/weekends. Not only this, but most companies pay for your school if you do well.
After about 5-10 years on the job, school no longer matters (if you don't have a degree), only experience matters.
As a side note, I'm a firm believer in college educations. I'd be very hard pressed to hire someone without a degree. And in an economical drought of the IT industries, a CS degree won't get you far if you are up against good CompEng canidates (with similar experience, of course).
If you are geared more towards management, go ahead and try to grab an MBA while you are used to going to school, and you should be set and well paid for the next 5-10 years (MBA's usually give you a jump on pay your first 5-10 years).
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
There's a lot of promise in these online degree programs -- they may bring knowledge and opportunity to people who, due to a variety of circumstances, wouldn't otherwise have them. Ideally, they could be a great democratizing force in education.
... this is where the learning really happens, and this is the real value of a degree.
That said, an online education is absolutely no substitute. In the very best online program, you'll still get to work with top-notch instructors in a well-designed curriculum.
However, the single most important thing -- by far -- about undergraduate education is your peers. Textbooks are OK, classes are good, professors are wonderful -- but nothing matters so much as directly sharing that environment with other students. Meeting other students, challenging each other, working side by side and together on problems, everybody chipping in for a pizza at 2 AM
A degree isn't really about knowledge; it's about cultivating an adaptable mind, and becoming a good problem solver and good communicator who can work with others. That's one of the reasons why there's often little correlation between peoples' majors and their ultimate professional fields. That's why so the majority of job descriptions don't say "college degree in X", but simply say "college degree".
Yes, online communities exist (e.g. this), and yes, one can form a peer group there. But for education, there is no substitute for face-to-face immersion.
(My epsilon cents.)
I've always been of the opinion that learning is a contact sport. Meaning that accredited or not you are not going to get as much out of an online course as a real university program.
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That being said there are legit practical reasons to go online but I think the point still stands that often it is not just the material but the other people in the class. A traditional classroom broadens the scope of the education, allows for more interaction and therefore responsiveness, and is in general more usefull. I realize you are asking specifically about technology degrees but again I think the point is still relevant
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The key here is that a traditional classroom has advantages that an online setting cannot begin to eumulate.
I'm currently going through the UofP program. I have a 2 year degree (from a long long time ago) and recognize that while this isn't MIT it is a degree. My take on it is that it may help keep my resume from being thrown out when the job requires a BS of some sort. I figure that there are front end people (you might even call them human resources) that look at a resume for buzzwords and key stuff (one of them being a degree) and chuck the ones that don't have them.
That said this isn't easier than going to class, they do pile on the work so beware that it's not something that you can do over lunch...
It isn't necessary to have a degree, but it doesn't hurt. Though, if I had gotten a Ph.D right after my Masters' degree I'd have been overqualified for most jobs available at the time. Today, I regret not having it.
You could've hired me.
Not necessary perhaps, but it certainly helps:
Interviewer: It says here you invented the turing machine.
You: Hire me, and you can patent it.
Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
I go to a commuter college and don't feel like it's a real college experience. Sure I'll have a degree from a decent state school when I'm done but I don't have the dorm experience. Some might argue that I'm ahead of the game there but I feel like I missed out. I definately notice a difference in alumni spirit between my school and say a school like Umass Amhearst. Most of my peers I won't miss when I'm gone because they're more like coworkers. We never had the late night bonding/speakers-out-the-window kegger. We share no particular intimacy that comes from close quarters living. Again some may argue that I'm ahead of the game further still.
I do have a more independant method of problem solving. I have more science and computer toys and reference books at my home because the library isn't a walk across the quad. But every step of the way has been something of a struggle having to figure things out myself b/c I can't ask someone down the hall.
Now multiply what I've said by a factor of 10 as you won't know who your peers are in an online class. You won't even have the kind of social life a night school student gets. I don't mean social life as in party. I've learned a lot working through problems with my peers, some problems cannot be solved on your own.
You may think that the social aspect isn't important. It's not if you're trying to get a technical degree in as little time as possible. In which case as an employer I'd probably lump you in with the Devry Tech grads. Not someone who's earned a BS Degree. If I was hiring I'd want someone who can work out problems with a group.
Having earned my BS (I graduate in 8 weeks) I know that most kids who can't work out problems together don't graduate with honors, many don't graduate at all. In other words the BS Degree represents a certain measureable amount of technical skill as well as implies a grasp of certain intangeble skills.
I had a career out of highschool before I decided I wanted a college degree. It was weird at first but it got better. I'm 32 now I don't look, feel or act it. I think it's from being around 20 year olds all day long. This has turned out to be a longer rant than I intended but I guess my bottom line is you're better off biting the bullet and living in poverty for 4 years and get the traditional degree.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
Not having finished my degree yet has certainly held me back in more than one job. I'm a network admin with a strong *nix and NT background, but even with certification from Cisco, it is difficult to progress. One can always land a job based on what you know, and how well you present yourself in the interview, but my experience so far has shown repeatedly that the lack of degree will dampen your chances of rising beyond the daily grind. I work for a large utility now as the prime network admin for my department, but I will not be able to make the leap into management without a degree. My advice to anyone who jumped into the IT business too early (for whatever reason) is to make the time to get the degree from a respectable establishment. It'll cut into your personal time and, in my case, family time, but the ends will justify the means. No one really wants to retire a packet-jockey. Certainly not me. Thus I am making the economic and social sacrifices to get my degree. Even if it takes years, it's worth it.
Ludicrous tuition. Online learning should be cheap. University of Phoenix is silly expensive, especially for out-of-country types (Canadians like me).
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Let's not stir that bag of worms...
I'm studying Computer and Information Science (Unix, database theory, networking, C++) at the University of Maryland University College. All my classes are online, only proctored final exams; it's fully accredited through UM, and it offers credit for OJT "experiential learning." Cost: same as state U. I think I've learned more doing it online because instead of wasting time in lecture halls, I'm hacking away at my computer(s) doing some pretty heavy-duty programming, sysadmin, database design, etc. Hands-on learning beats boring profs any day, and I don't have to worry about wedging classes in between my full-time job and my 2+ hour commute. (I'm counting on my BS, 20 years of being an end-user, and a little help from a mentor to break into the field.)
No, I think the BS you already have will do nicely. "IT consultant" my ass.
As someone who found a very good paying job in IT at the age of 16 (and graduated from high-school early) let me give you some advice.
Forget about the IT consulting for now unless you can do it part time, and spend the next 4-6 years in college.
I'm now 29, married with a 2 year old and working very hard to get a degree (ie. up all night doing homework). Not having the degree hasn't prevented me from getting a good paying job, but I know I could have done better with the degree. At this point in my career I don't think I can progress much more without it. I've sort of hit the "no degree ceiling".
When I was your age I thought "who needs a degree when people are willing to pay me this much without it". Don't give in to that reasoning, it's short term thinking. I don't care how smart you are, a degree is a must. You might not miss it 5 years from now, but I know you will wish you had gotten it 10 or 15 years from now if you don't. If for no other reason, because 90% of those you will be competing with for salary and jobs will have it.
I don't care if you have to get a loan and live poorly for the next few years, it will be worth it!
I don't care what you call it. DeVry is still a technical school. However you are correct in that it is better then nothing.
You don't deserve to loose karma but man I'm trolling. There goes my 50.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
re: the need for a degree at all --
I graduated with a degree in Chinese literature (minor in CS), and I had no problems getting offers from selective companies (for very technical positions). You're much more than your IT skills -- you might want to round yourself out (you'll have IT jobs on the side, or during summer) or learn about something new. The money/career will probably be there when you're done, if that's what you're looking for.
Don't sell yourself short, and remember to keep your head about you -- it's not all about money.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
I'm currently doing a BSIT at UoP while working for a major government contractor. UoP is fully accredited. My employer recognizes them as a legitimate university and is happy to pay for the courses.
While I'm not sure that the education is as rigorous as I'd like, the degree is legit and there's nothing to stop me from going to the U of Washington campus to take more math and such. While the credits are more expensive, individually at UoP ($400 per credit vs. $300 per credit at U of Washington), UoP recognized twice as many of my previous college credits, which means I'll complete my degree nearly two years earlier than if I'd gone the other route.
Sad fact is that if you're working for a major corporation, particularly in the government sector, the degree's important. Not only is there a certain status attached to your level of education, but many companies have internal rules governing rate of pay and advancement level limits based on degree. Online education is becoming more and more acceptable and companies are beginning to realize that it is a real education, as opposed to a diploma mill. The bottom line for me is: It doesn't matter where that education comes from; what I get out of it is entirely up to me.
It was absolutely pathetic.
The teacher didn't know what she was teaching.
The teacher handed out exams that had blatant errors (do you really want me to write out the results of a 100 Million Cartesian product?!?)
The teacher believed the book when it recommended human-readable primary keys! (ie: US-AZ-24-90 Made in the US, in Arizona, and for Trucks (24)... that's what unique columns are for. It's a mess when the plant moves to Mexico... and you know it will).
The teacher couldn't answer questions. (In Access, can you select the Count(*)? [Yes: It allows you to return counts including null fields, and is much faster])
The book actually gave different answers for the same question, exemplified when we had an open book exam. Everyone took the answer from the chapter we were on... the teacher graded on the answer 5 chapters later.
We were forced to use a data modeling program that no one had ever heard of, and were not allowed to use, oh, Visio.
By the end of the class, fellow students twice my age were asking me the questions, and ignoring her answers.
I wrote a letter describing the situation in much more political terms, CC: to everyone all the way up to President, and never received a response.
All you do at UoP is purchase a degree. You almost can't fail. You get A's almost without trying. (of course you have to do the simplistic work)
While I don't claim to know everything, I was a Sr. Developer/Analyst consulting at Best Western, and have since worked for a couple more top-100 companies.
What I will be doing next is going to evening/distance learning courses offered by a reputable university. Not only will it have good name recognition, it's cheaper, and more taxing on the mind (which is why you get education: otherwise, buy your degree from UoP and prove it in your interview).
Posting anonymously so they can't sue Slashdot for who I am... Even those these are just my opinions.