Oldest-known Solar Eclipse Recorded in Stone

XorNand writes: "Astronomy.com is reporting that a scientist, using astronomy simulation software, has correlated ancient stone carvings in Ireland to a solar eclipse that occurred on November 30, 3340 BC. Also interesting are the other pieces of evidence in the area, including the charred remains of 48 people found nearby that were the result of a panicked attempt to appease the sun gods."

Comments

Arrogant Archaeologists

[Katravax]

Archaeologists and historians in general piss me off with their clueless arrogance. Here's a quote from the story:

Some feel the neolithic people lacked the sophistication to memorialize the eclipse in this way.

Do they think that only in recent history have humans become intelligent? Our brain today is the same as theirs. They were just as "sophisticated" as we are. Every time the archaeologists find something new, there are plenty of quotes about how surprised they are at the intricacy of something, or the design of something else. If you believe the archaeologists, nothing mattered to our ancestors but their kitchen utensils and their paintings.

The people in the story were only around 5000 years ago. We haven't changed that much... We see the amazing art and design in Europe from a few centuries ago, lots of long-lasting writing in the Middle East a couple thousand years ago, pyramids and beautiful work from who knows when in Egypt, and we're supposed to think that somehow 5000 years ago in Ireland they were illiterate cave monkeys?

How have archaeologists gotten so arrogant?

Re:Arrogant Archaeologists

[Psion]

The litany of development you recite is the exact reason these archaeologists are surprised. The more recent achievements built upon earlier accomplishments. Unless you subscribe to some of Erich van Daniken's ideas, the overall sophistication of artistic and scientific accomplishments of more primative cultures gets...well, even more primative the further back you look. By the time your poking around 5000 years ago any sophisticated understanding of the world around our ancestors is quite rare.

To some degree, I share a bit of your incredulity. A few thousand years shouldn't be enough to have the profound impact on our culture and knowledge that it obviously has. Biologically, we don't appear to be any different from our forebears from 35,000 years ago -- and yet we fail to find any evidence that the human condition, culturally speaking doesn't begin to change until quite recently.

This isn't arrogance on the part of the archaeologists, it's a simple understanding that has built up over decades of careful research and excavation. And generally, people living 5000 years ago evidenced very little understanding of the world around them. That isn't saying that they couldn't, but they didn't exactly have the benefit of a guaranteed public education to give them a leg up. And transportation options, beyond one foot in front of the other, were a bit limited too, so there wasn't much opportunity to share accumulated wisdom with other tribes that weren't nearby.

It's beginning to look like there's a certain population density that needs to be reached in a region before people start to have the time to do anything more than sketch in the dirt. Infrastructure, however primative, has to be in place to allow some people to hunt for a living, and others to think and create. And once you have the ability for a large group of people to take time off from basic survival needs -- culture, at least the kind that goes beyond pictures of animals carved into cave walls, begins to rapidly blossum.

Re:Arrogant Archaeologists

[SIGFPE]

It's not a claim that these people were unintelligent. But techniques like representative art are a learnt skill. All through life we discover things that seem obvious after the fact but aren't so obvious a priori. Representative art is one of these. Even recognising art as a representation of something is a learnt skill.

Humans are more than just their physical bodies - they are the products of a culture and those cultures have changed dramatically over 5000 years.

BTW There's every reason to believe that these people were illiterate if not exactly monkeys. Just because some people in Sumeria or Egypt had got the hang of writing it doesn't mean that the Irish did too.

Re:Arrogant Archaeologists

[j_w_d]

Being an archaeologist, I reckon this needs an answer, or a reply at least. First, there is a very broad brush being used here implying that all us Marshalltown wielders are arrogant. It is logically fallacious, and contrary to reality as well. Among the most aggravating aspects of archaeology is the regionalization and insularism that we have to deal with whenever we move outside our normal regions and go some where else. Crossing the Atlantic results in enormous differences in how archaeologists view what they do, how they learn their trade, and even what's considered worth finding. Go to Israel and you find the Israelis were bery fond of architecture to the sometimes complete loss of most archaeological information. Go to Britain and you will find the discipline heavily invested in "post-processualism" and the use of critical theory, a practice that seems more than a little odd to many from the western side of the pond. Talk to a historical archaeologist about prehistory or vice versa, and you will undoubtedly get an earful, most of it not much use to hear. You have to remember that archaeologists are human, prone to the same failings as the rest of the race, particularly the fondess for collecting pet ideas, regardless of their real utility.

Now, consider the article. First, it wasn't written by an archaeologist but instead is a "popular" piece written by a reporter. There are major gaps in the story as advanced and these would be subject to peer-review normally, but the popular press doesn't wait for such measured and qualified (as in 'hedged') discussion. There are several obvious criticisms.

For instance, the implication of the limestone pillar or post is that after celebrating their survival, these people dashed off and lugged home a piece of alien rock to employ as a cenotaph. The whole picture is absurd. Second, there is the suggestion that the burned bones in the tomb/s were human sacrifices, but nothing was offered in support of this. You can go on, but the real problem is that there is no way to differentiate between the archaeologist's words and thoughts, and the wax -if any- in the ears of the reporter.

Now, considering Ireland and the Irish 5Ky ago. First, as far the evidence goes, I have to admit that it appears my very own ancestors trotting over those green, green bogs were indeed illiterate. They were not however, unsophisticated.

The period in question saw the the construction of the Egyptian pyramids at Giza, and the rise of the megalithic cultures of western Europe, when huge stones were moved miles for the construction of graves, sacred precincts, henge monuments and the great passage graves. Some of these latter show a profound concern for astronomical phenomena and years ago it was proven that Stone Henge in England could be used to predict eclipses, both lunar and solar. It seems reasonable then to suspect a concern among the occupants of the British Isles with things like solar calendar events, and where the moo will rise and set, and even eclipses.

So, what do we really know about people 5Ky ago? Precious little. The Egyptians were busy inventing, agricultural was off to a good start throughout Asia, the middle east, Egypt, and Europe wherever the Neolithic was taking hold. Writing is invented by the Eygptians during the Early Dynastic period. We know that the Egyptians were religious and built grandly. We know that the use of stone in architecture really appears at its earliest in western Europe, but not why. Consequently, many archaeologists argue by analogy. Thus during solar eclipses in the Middle East, Bedouin stay home, keep their kids, cattle, horses and camals inside and wait for the darkness to go away. Being exposed to the dark of an eclipse out doors is bad cess and any sensible, traditional Arab avoids it. Now, since the last time this happened was just about three years ago, you are right, we may not have changed that much. On the other hand would these early Irish be likely to resemble us or the Bedouin more? Think about it some, then tell me who the arrogant one is?

Re:Arrogant Archaeologists

[j_w_d]

The litany of development you recite is the exact reason these archaeologists are surprised.

Actually, the story indicates the Irish archaeologist was on a fishing expedition for an astronomical correlation for those 5 Ky old carvings. So he wasn't surprised. In fact no archaeologist familiar with the Megalithic and Neolithic archaeology of Britain and Ireland is really going to be surprised. These people had some very profound abilities in geometery that they used regularly to construct Henges, and major mortuary monuments. No surprises for archaeologists in this other than the irritatingly over-explicit just-so story about the burned "sacrificial victims" and the limestone cenotaph, and that came from the archaeologist, not the archaeology.

another april fools story ?

[gokulpod]

did the irish want to make us april fools so many thousands of years ago ?

My own misinterpretation of the drawing

[Katravax]

I know the story is being run on April Fool's day, and that makes me a fool for treating it as real, but the story on astronomy.com was posted March 28, so I'll bite.

Does anyone else think these "archaeoastronomers" are full of it? Does anyone else see a sketch of an eclipse here? Their explanation completely ignores the rest of the wall. I would think that someone looking for astronomical explanations of these diagrams on this cave wall would have noticed the following:

Of the two overlapping ringed circles: The "big circle" has a center with nine rings around it. Sort of like the orbits of the planets, maybe? The slightly smaller circle (the center of which crosses what would be Jupiter's orbit) has more rings around it... rings similar to moon orbits around Jupiter. Don't look at it as two circles colliding in 2D, look at it as a blow-up of Jupiter and it's moons.

The other shapes on the wall also resemble orbits... Can anyone count the number of object orbiting the other objects? Do they line up to numbers of moons around planets in our solar system? The picture accompanying the article is so small, and even the "larger view" is pretty low-res. Specifically, the third circle on the right (with a center and three rings), the one to the immediate left of the vertical rings/diamonds on the far right... those little white dots look like several satellites orbiting something.

I'm not saying I'm any more correct than the "archaeoastronomers" are, but if you've got astronomy on the brain looking at that cave drawing, I don't see how you get "eclipse". It's also obvious they're just making wild guesses, so I can too.

Re:My own misinterpretation of the drawing

[Anonymous Coward]

Can anyone count the number of object orbiting the other objects? Do they line up to numbers of moons around planets in our solar system?

I can assure you that only 5 planets + the Earth + the Sun + the Moon can be known to these people. The rest can't be seen with the naked eye, you need a telescope to see the rest (except possibly Uranus in good conditions if you know where to look). So if the number of lines on the drawings correspond to the number of planets/moons in the solar system, then the whole thing must be a prank.

I'm not saying I'm any more correct than the "archaeoastronomers" are, but if you've got astronomy on the brain looking at that cave drawing, I don't see how you get "eclipse".

Well at least their idea cannot be dismissed as easily as yours.

Re:My own misinterpretation of the drawing

[Kintanon]

I can assure you that only 5 planets + the Earth + the Sun + the Moon can be known to these people. The rest can't be seen with the naked eye, you need a telescope to see the rest (except possibly Uranus in good conditions if you know where to look). So if the number of lines on the drawings correspond to the number of planets/moons in the solar system, then the whole thing must be a prank.


There you go just assuming that the cave people didn't have telescopes! What if their alien overlord masters let them look through the alien telescopes eh? Maybe they were refugees from Atlantis and their telescopes were ultra powerful but.. ummm... biodegradable, yeah! They were biodegradable so they rotted away before we could find them! You don't know, you weren't there! >:)

Kintanon

Re:My own misinterpretation of the drawing

[sandalle]

Perhaps you haven't heard of the Sumerian texts writtin (IIRC) about 25,000 years ago. They had quite the "advanced" civilization, with telescopes among them. Lemuria and Atlantis also had the "technology" of telescopes. You are being deliberately obtuse when you "assume" something that you have no proof of and use that as part of your proof. In order to have a _correct_ proof, the data that you build your proof upon _must_ be proven correct, which is nigh unto impossible here, as we have no way of knowing what did and did not exist 5000 years ago.

Now, I'm not saying that they for _sure_ had telescopes, but that they had the _possibility_ of having telescopes and that your outright denial is ludicrous. As I mentioned before, we do _not_ know for sure either way.

Re:My own misinterpretation of the drawing

[Anonymous Coward]

i think that the etchings are a representation of how old the rock is, kinda like rings inside a tree. the ancient people obviously etched rings to keep track of how old the rock is. dumbass!

this is pretty lame april fools

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

geez guyz everyone knows only the moon is ever eclipsed never the sun!!!!!!

Re:this is pretty lame april fools

[jfengel]

Uh, sure it does. The sun is eclipsed by the moon (a solar eclipse). More often, the moon is eclipsed by the earth (a lunar eclipse).

I'm not sure if you just don't believe in solar eclipses, or if you've forgotten about the less-interesting-to-look-at lunar eclipses and misunderstanding the word "eclipsed". It is true that the sun never eclipses the moon; is that what you meant to say?

The two kinds of eclipses are actually rather different. In a solar eclipse, the moon is between us and the sun; you see the moon rather than the sun. In a lunar eclipse, the earth casts a shadow on the moon; the earth blocks the light but not the moon itself. In both cases what you're seeing is an unlit moon, one with the sun behind it and another with the sun in front but shadowed by the earth. But we call them eclipses of the sun and moon, because we name the eclipse after the bright object we would ordinarily be seeing but can't.

Re:this is pretty lame april fools

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

What the...you are try to fool me too! TRACK-YOUR-POSITION is no dummy!

The sun will always shine! ALWAYS! I KILL WHOEVER MAKES THE SUN DISAPPEAR!!!!

Re:this is pretty lame april fools

[alienmole]

Hello TRACK-YOUR-POSITION!

Are you related to OOG by any chance? Say hi to OOG for me, we all miss his caveman insights!

According to this page, the sun is disappears because of a Sun-Eating Dragon. Good luck in your dragon-hunting quest!

Re:this is pretty lame april fools

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

So some OOG guy also wanted to stop solar eclipses? Is that why some moderator around here is really, really sensitive about solar eclipse jokes? No, don't know the guy, sorry. PS I WILL BEAT ALL DRAGON!

Re:this is pretty lame april fools

[alienmole]

No, OOG THE CAVEMAN always talked in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS using PIDGIN CAVEMAN ENGLISH, like "I WILL BEAT ALL DRAGON"!

prehistoric doodles

[KingPrad]

looking over my doodles - errrr notes - from physics I notice circles exactly like those in the article! And I saw a solar eclipse a few years ago...I should put this notebook in a time capsule for future generations to have a record of this event.

Technology gone wrong

[leonbrooks]

the charred remains of 48 people found nearby that were the result of a panicked attempt to appease the sun gods.

Really, it was a crowd of supporters for one of Dr Gerard K O'Niell's forerunners. They gathered to watch their antenna array light up with microwaves converted and retransmitted from their moon-based solar power station, and the beam arrived a lot more focussed than it should have been and also slightly off target... (-:

Speaking of technology gone wrong, hasn't the absence of AC posts made today's stories a lot shorter? Or is this the (H)GSB we kept hearing about? Or both.

Re:Arrogant Critics

[leonbrooks]

The more recent achievements built upon earlier accomplishments.

W r o n g .

Always tough..

[skilef]

..to see whether I'm fooled by april.. Article doesn't seem very accurate: the oldest-known solar eclipse is for sure not this one.. We can calculate them back to way before human existence.
Couldn't it be grain circles? Those are for real!

Re:Arrogant Critics

[h4x0r-3l337]

You've been watching too many X-files, or reading too much von Daniken...

Re:Arrogant Critics

[Anonymous Coward]

what are supposed to make of a 360 million year old hammer? Do you really take this seriously? If you do, then considering how much society has changed in the last 100 years, if we already had hammers hundreds of millions of years ago, why wouldn't we already have evolved into the Q?

you all have it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

there was some guy who just wanted to draw a pretty picture! like a preschooler with water colors... it'll make sense if you look at it long enough...