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Jason Hunter on Opening the Java Community Process

Posted by timothy on from the open-process dept.

Dejected @Work writes: "At JavaOne it was hinted that Sun and the Apache Software Foundation have worked out how open source software could participate in the JCP (Java Community Process) but the precise resolution was not disclosed. This developerWorks interview with Jason Hunter (Apache rep. for the JCP) clear things up a little and specifically explains what this means for open source developers and the JCP."

17 comments

  1. Good stuff by sab39 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I hate when interesting stories get posted on slashboxes, because that means there's pretty much guaranteed to be no discussion at all.

    Oh well... I can still have a discussion all by myself in here :)

    This is good news and a BIG step in the right direction. Where we go from here seems to depend on whether Sun work in good faith or not. If they do the bare minimum to meet their side of the agreement, or drag their feet, then nothing will really change.

    If on the other hand they take the agreement as a starting point and push forward with it agressively, this could be the start of a quiet revolution in the Java world. Getting more and more JSRs with Open Source reference implementations will start a process where Sun recognizes the positive PR and positive impact on the development process (the success of Tomcat itself has probably opened a few eyes inside Sun to the possibility of this) and might lead, eventually, to the opening of the entire JDK.

    Making the JDK itself open source would pave the way for its inclusion in all major Linux distributions (including debian!) and for vast amounts of open source bug-fixing talent to be set to work. Unlike the initial release of OpenOffice or Mozilla, the JDK isn't in "that bad" of a state today, codewise, as far as I can tell, so the ramp-up period to widespread community involvement could be much quicker (although there are always the social barriers to break down).

    And suddenly things like using Tomcat over say PHP or mod_perl wouldn't make you a second-class citizen in the open source world :)

    1. Re:Good stuff by 56ker · · Score: 2

      Oh well... I can still have a discussion all by myself in here :)

      - you're not the only one in here you know! :o)

      --


      Video Game cheats, hints a
    2. Re:Good stuff by sab39 · · Score: 2

      you're not the only one in here you know! :o)

      Ok... but do you or anyone else in here have any opinions related to the topic of the story? :)

      (Or, for that matter, the substance of my post?)

      If not, then I'm still having a discussion all by myself - at least, inasmuch as it relates to the topic of the story, which is what I would have liked to discuss.

      Still, meaningless meta-discussion is better than no discussion at all, I guess ;)

      Stuart.

  2. Hunter is too optimistic by software_non_olet · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... but certainly that's part of his role.

    I'm not a lawyer and I don't want to become one, just to code something for the Open Source community. Hence I have to decide from the belly.

    And according to my feelings the Java development is no-longer-so-open software. It became lawyer's country - and the whole situation is no longer white (open software) or black (proprietary), it's gone grey. The current discussions ar ample proof for that. Endless meetings and papers how to decide upon new papers, lawers all over the place.

    But for such ground work as a development environment there need to be clear rules; the basement must be solid before you can build a house on it. And the concrete of this basement is not yet dry.

    If the legal situation is not changing in the next future, 2002 will be the start of the decline of Java.

    Long ago when Ada was starting to become available (and after APL had had it's crash landing) there was this saying among compiler writers: "Any programming language with an 'A' in it's name will not survive". And look at what happened with Ada - it's confined to western military developments. The leading role of the DOD became a hindrance to use Ada in non-western and non-military realms. After it's initial excellant support of Ada, the DOD should have given it's child the freedom to develop in the commercial and non-western world (which the DOD failed to do).

    Now Sun is trying to make the same errors with Java which the DOD was doing with Ada - not giving enough freedom for a grown up child.

    And the Apache group should stick more to it's original way of development - after all why did they succeed in the market place? If the Apache development would have been run under Sun's lead would we use the webserver all over the planet?

    1. Re:Hunter is too optimistic by Stu+Charlton · · Score: 2

      It has never been grey. It's rather black and white: http://www.jcp.org/

      It's just a different way of doing business. The OSS community provides one extreme, Microsoft provides the other extreme. Sun's has something that balances compatability, remuneration, and the free sharing/modification of information.

      It's certainly flawed, looking at all the spats with Apache. But there's genuine interest in making it work.

      I really don't get what you mean by "lawyers all over the place". The situaiton here is nothing like what happened to ADA -- Java is already heavily entrenched in the enterprise.

      Your concern that Java will begin to decline in 2002 leads me to ask a pragmatic question: replaced by what? .NET? Perl, Python, Ruby?

      --
      -Stu
    2. Re:Hunter is too optimistic by msouth · · Score: 2
      "Any programming language with an 'A' in it's name will not survive".


      All I can say is, thank goodness Larry left it out of Perl.

      --
      Liberty uber alles.
  3. BIG steps by BIG organizations? by software_non_olet · · Score: 1

    Sure, Stuart, the step taken was in the right direction, but was it BIG with capital letters?

    From the way you write about Java I assume it is your home ground. So let me answer as somebody from the non-Java community.

    The technical basis is excellent. The original idea of a standard virtual machine is still valid and flexible enough to use the language for all kinds of projects - especially for the exploding world of handhelds and imbedded systems.

    What is missing now is the widespread usage in workstations, desktops and servers. This is and has to be a 'multi'-country. Just two players agreeing on the rules of the game - that's not enough. Especially as the two are USA-based. Europe and the East is missing - they are not going to say yes to a decision tree, where only Sun and Apache (and some big companies) are the ruling instances. And youngsters and hackers are missing - they are not going to be attracted by hidden-source or fixed-source projects (and thus the new generation is not fully included). The prices for Java development workbenches are accordingly prohibitive.

    BIG organisations make BIG footsteps - but slow ones. Fast development comes only out of Open Source environments. And Java is not (or should I say no longer?) open enough for my taste.

    Michael

    1. Re:BIG steps by BIG organizations? by sab39 · · Score: 2

      Perhaps my estimation of what's BIG has been tainted by the long line of disappointingly tiny steps that Sun has taken in the past :)

      It's fair to say that Java is my home ground; I've used it in my day job for the past 2 years and also made some minor contributions to various attempts at replicating it in true Open Source. Most of what I've been involved in has been server-side; widespread desktop usage would be great, IMHO, but that still seems a long way off from where I stand. For technical reasons (crappy toolkit) as well as political ones.

      I agree that true Open Source should be considered the ultimate goal. I sympathize with those that won't consider using Java unless it is Open Source - sometimes I feel bad myself for using it in its current state of non-openness (and no, it's not "no longer" - Java is more open now than it ever was (except perhaps for the trademark, which is irrelevant really), but still far from being open enough).

      So having said all that, let me qualify my use of "BIG" in capital letters. I think this is a BIG step towards the ultimate goal of true Open Source for Java. As I said in my original post, what Sun does now will determine whether they continue after this one big step to make the other 4 or 5 similar-sized steps to actually releasing the JDK as Open Source.

      I understand, but disagree with, your point about "just two players" not being enough. The unfortunate situation with Java today is that by definition, one player is enough - if that player is Sun. Nobody else can make any difference at all. So the significance of this step is that Sun is one of the parties to it - which implies that it really will make a difference. Until the magical point of true Open Source is reached, the only steps that matter to Java are those made by Sun. After that, the benefits of Open Source start applying and everybody gets a say.

      Stuart.

    2. Re:BIG steps by BIG organizations? by software_non_olet · · Score: 1

      ...the long line of disappointingly tiny steps that Sun has taken in the past

      Actually that's my disappointment also. I agree with your standpoint. And - not a 'but' but an 'and' - I want to add:

      Time plays an important role. If the development into Open Source is not going to speed up, Java will not play the prime role it could (and should) according to my opinion.

      The present state is a critical turning point - Sun started to move. Let's help it to go on .o)

  4. A retort to Malda's Omelette analogy.(Peaceful) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The Omelette" - A retort to Malda's Omelette analogy.

    Let me try to give you an analogy for Slashdot's homepage.
    Yes, please liken something to something in a cliché staid analogy because we the reader are too stupid to understand any overly complex and high level reason why you can't explain yourself properly. Either that or you are full of crap, don't know what you are doing and are lucky as hell to have what you have.

    It's like an omelette: it's a combination of sausage and ham and tomatoes and eggs and more.
    It is a motley collage, a miasma, a montage or eclectic and seemingly unrelated things. It may be a myriad of unrelated things, related at only the most abstract levels. It certainly isn't an omelette.

    Over the years, we've figured out what ingredients are best on Slashdot.
    What critical acclamations have you had that makes you think this is so? Just because you get a lot of hits, and subsequently subject your readership to unwanted bandwidth consuming detritus, doesn't mean you know what's best. It is just like a Reynolds family member claiming they know what's best for them, nicotine and smoke are not unhealthy, and then they die of lung cancer. You are an egotistical megalomaniac. If this site was run based on a meritocratic method rather and juvenile selfishness, it would have serious potential.

    The ultimate goal is, of course, to create an omelette that I enjoy eating: by 8pm, I want to see a dozen interesting stories on Slashdot.
    The ultimate goal is to please yourself, to feed your id. You have no desire to please the community by which you make your living. You are selfish, sheltered and removed from your community. You are on a one way soapbox, a pulpit, and you talk at people. I would probably include you in a list of people I would kill if I could get away with it.

    I hope you enjoy them too.
    I do not.

    I believe that we've grown in size because we share a lot of common interests with our readers.
    Mobocracy is good? You would rather collect people without regard to quality. This means nothing. Budweiser is the most consumer beer, but its garbage. This is analogous to Slashdot, to stoop to your food and beverage analogy. Bud beer. Its good because a lot of people drink it. No, no. Don't bother trying to get critical acclimation. Don't bother, you know as long as you "control" Slashdot, you never will.

    But that doesn't mean that I'm gonna mix an omelette with all sausages, or someday throw away the tomatoes because the green peppers are really fresh.
    So serving rotten food is acceptable how? Its better to keep your silence and let people wonder if you are fool than to speak up and remove all doubt. "Gonna." Pathetic. Simply pathetic. This is a hick like expression, akin to something on the order of, "I'm gonna open a can of whup ass on him for peggin Mary Joe Susie Lee."

    There are many components to the Slashdot Omelette. Stories about Linux. Tech stories. Science. Legos. Book Reviews. Yes, even Jon Katz.
    Jon Katz is the worst thing about this place. If it isn't the wasting of my bandwidth that I pay for, its this that bothers me the most. On a sidebar, I would like to hold you and the rest of the scum who send ad banners to my connection legally liable for unwanted bandwidth usage. This crap half the time doesn't even come from your site. It would be less of an affront if you stored you vile ads on your own site, but you took the easy way out and decided to outsource the production of garbage to similarly-devoid-of-ethics people with slightly more intelligence and infrastructure to provide this illegal content.

    By mixing and matching these things each and every day, we bring you what I call Slashdot. On some days it definitely is better than others, but overall we think it's a tasty little treat and we hope you enjoy eating as much as we enjoy cooking it.
    Grotesque things are often of huge interest to people. This holds true with me in regards to Slashdot. I hate you, I hate Jon Katz, I hate most of the content here. Some of the best stuff is written at -1. You would suppress those who are different while you are "different like everyone else," just another marginally educated half assed "programmer" who on the scale of things lucked out even more so than Bill Gates (reason: I would assume your IQ is probably his divided by 2 or 3 and you aren't working at a McDonald's where you should be). Whenever you have participated in a discussion thread, you are obnoxious, rude and ungrateful. You policies are horrible, you content is basically a smattering of other people's work and you benefit from this. You web page reeks of someone who completes nothing that he starts. Your obsession with anime is a testament to how juvenile you are, your spelling is horrific, you grammar is oft questionable; you are a poor editor Mr. Malda.

    I hope only the worst outcomes for any and all of your endeavors henceforth. I hope your fiancée or if you are lucky, your marriage falls apart. I hope your Jubei breaks. I hope you lose your job. I hope that you fail because you are displacing true talent.

    Answered by: CmdrTaco
    Last Modified: 6/14/00

    I'm hoping to obtain a patent for "Utilizing the methane producing
    capabilities of symbiotic colonic microbes to produce sound pressure waves
    emitted from the anus modulated by sphincter muscle control". I'm sure they won't find any prior fart.

  5. Slashdot: Wake up call by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The interview is great and slashdot just shows
    it lameness by hiding this away in the developers section !?

  6. doesn't solve the problem by j09824 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Sun is still calling all the shots when it comes to Java. Sun should follow through on their original promise: to make the core of the Java platform an ISO or ECMA standard that anybody can implement and build on without any obligation to Sun whatsoever.

    Sun's excuses for not following through on their commitments don't hold water. Sun claims that their tight control over Java is necessary to ensure compatibility, but the Java APIs already fail to guarantee cross platform compatibility, and some of Sun's APIs are so deficient that third party APIs have already become a de-facto standard--on some platforms.

    In different words, as far as I'm concerned, the JCP changes don't address the fundamental problems with Java and where it is going.

    1. Re:doesn't solve the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if they will, sun will lose control and die, and you people are stupid-ass faggots with all your free shit, relax and let someone decide instead of jumping the gun