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IEEE Building Automotive Black-Box Standard

Posted by michael on from the bent-out-of-shape dept.

An anonymous submitter writes: "According to EE Times, the IEEE is working to develop an automotive black-box standard similar to what airplanes have. Forget Acme Rent-A-Car in Connecticut - get ready to have your insurance company jack your rates for going over 65mph."

22 of 357 comments (clear)

  1. Networked? by gehrehmee · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why on the internet? Even airplane black boxes don't appear to be hooked up for communication of any kind, otherwise people wouldn't be so concerned with finding them after a crash.

    Why can't this be a similarly autonomous data-gathering device? If there's any need for it outisde of crash data recovery, clearly there's a different purpose involved.

    --
    "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
    1. Re:Networked? by kbonin · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Its not so much that they want them on the Internet, its that they want them to upload the buffer on response to certain criteria, and eventually the ability to remote query them.

      After that, its only a matter of time before the Patriot act is ammended to include access to this data...

      It should also be noted that if you check the fine print of your OnStar paperwork, this capability already exists, with no significant privacy warrantees, including no promise to require any warrant to access the data. In fact, according to a broad interpretation of my paperwork, there's nothing to prevent any OnStar employee from calling into my car at any time and browsing data, including where I am via the integrated GPS, possibly even turning on the in-car microphone and listening in. If you think these capabilities don't exist, look up the 'in-car speakerphone' and 'unlock my car by telephone' (through call to OnStar, which then calls your car) features of the system...

    2. Re:Networked? by swordboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why on the internet?

      Well,

      For one thing, automobiles can participate in a massive data acquisition if their control systems are allowed to communicate. For example, if there are many cars with ABS are having activations at a certain section of road (obtained with a GPS), then the data could be analyzed by a central computer that could send out a "slippery road warning warning" and possibly even dispatch a salt truck. This goes for *all sorts* of stuff from traffic congestion to potholes. They can all be detected with the sensors on most cars these days.

      I'm really looking for a standard but I'm afraid that Microsoft is already pushing their goons into it. If Linux doesn't just quickly, then MS will tie their software into another piece of hardware with a "DirectCAR API" or something. This is big.

      Imagine that you pull into your garage and the bluetooth link (used to monitor tire pressure) on your car's computer tells your home PC that it is time for an oil change. With an internet connection, your home PC could look up the closest oil change joints and find you an opening (and maybe a coupon). If Linux doesn't step in, then MS will have a piece of these kind of transactions. Not good (but very smart of them).

      --

      Life is the leading cause of death in America.
    3. Re:Networked? by NearlyHeadless · · Score: 3, Informative
      Why on the internet? Even airplane black boxes don't appear to be hooked up for communication of any kind, otherwise people wouldn't be so concerned with finding them after a crash.

      There is usually fewer than one fatal airliner crash in the country per year, and hardly any others require analysis of the black box data.


      By contrast, there are tens of thousands of fatal car accidents per year, and hundreds of thousands of other accidents--the article said 6,000 per day.

      These boxes are only designed to hold a few seconds worth of data and the data is only saved and extracted after a crash. They don't keep your whole driving history and don't transmit it. I'm just astounded at the level of paranoia on Slashdot. When you have this kind of hysterical reaction to imagined problems, it undermines your credibility for real threats to personal privacy.

  2. Unsettling by piecewise · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Man... I don't know if this is what I want America to become.

    Are the police gonna tap into this? Wirelessly be able to find speeders? Everything's becoming so technical. "Well, the hot coffee was TOO hot, I want $200 million." "Well, my parents were segregated by racist whites... but I still call that this kid I see sometimes a 'white boy' or a 'cracker.' But I'm just kiddin' around, I'm sure it doesn't really bother him."

    I guess I'm just ranting about the details of society in general.

    But I really believe at some time we're going to have to ask outselves... how far is TOO far in what we do, and can we ever just let certain things go, even if it does giving up some profits?

    Nahhhhh...

    --
    The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
  3. Easy solution by Merovign · · Score: 4, Funny

    Buy car. Buy Taser. Unplug unit. Apply 120,000 volts. Plug unit back in. Drive in privacy. (Ignore warning light optional.)

    Of course, if you hack it, even better.

    Personally, I'll stick to upgraded older cars. I prefer 5-points to airbags anyway.

  4. New clauses in contracts by inburito · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I doubt that they'll settle just for hiking your rates for driving too fast.

    Heck, they might even go as far as to limit their liability if black box indicates that you were driving too fast at the time of accident - or prior to it. Or deny further coverage based on this etc..

    Imagine sensors tracking your head or the usage of radio buttons or wether you used the turn signal. What about that stop sign before the intersection..

    Yes it sounds like insurance company's heaven and a regular driver's nightmare.. Especially if it goes to that failure to follow traffic regulations limits insurance companies liability.

  5. Re:Rampant Paranoia by u01000101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To hell with the positive benefits of making cars safer in the long run...

    I bet the black box won't help a bit to recover stolen cars... no sir, that's another department. It will surely monitor your driving habits and give the insurance companies more reasons to refuse to pay. It'll allow cops to trace you but won't help in pinpointing your position if you have an accident.

    It's not that I don't have my tinfoil hat, it something called *REALITY*. Try it some time - it'll change the way you see the world.

    --
    if you use a good enough junk-filter, slashdot.org will display a single, *blank*, page
  6. Wrong Impression! by lkaos · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I heard about this about 6 months ago being experimented with in Europe. It's a wonderful idea, especially in New Jersey which has the highest car insurance rate of probably anywhere.

    The way it worked in this test program was a small monitor would gauge your speed (now that I think about it, another monitor guaging breaking habits could also be useful) such that if you were obeying the speed limits, you would get a discount on your insurance.

    Insurance companies want to base rates on potential of accidents, and therefore, currently use statistics to determine rates. This means that I have an extrordinarily high insurance rate even though I'm a good driver simply because of my age and gender.

    The idea isn't to fine people automatically (like in Demolition Man) but to reward people for good driving habits. The real piece of technology that needed improvement was GPS -> speed limit mapping, once that is perfected, I personally can't wait to sign up for this type of program.

    --
    int func(int a);
    func((b += 3, b));
    1. Re:Wrong Impression! by tbo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The way it worked in this test program was a small monitor would gauge your speed (now that I think about it, another monitor guaging breaking habits could also be useful) such that if you were obeying the speed limits, you would get a discount on your insurance.

      What a fucking moron you are. I bet you think it's great when pizza places offer free delivery, but a discount on pick-up orders. Don't you see there's no difference between offering a discount to those who choose option X (and of course raising prices overall), versus penalizing those who choose Y, without raising prices.

      Also, basing insurance pricing on driving speed is only slightly less unfair than basing it on age and gender. Consider two drivers:

      Driver A is a professional race-car driver, and, when he's driving his personal car (which is probably very well maintained, and chosen for optimal handling), he tends to go 5-10 mph over the limit.

      Driver B is an octagenarian with mild Parkinson's, and a car almost as old as he is. He tends to drive 5 mph below the limit.

      Who's safer? Who would you rather have on the road? Driver A has amazing reflexes, excellent situational awareness, and a well-handling car with good brakes. Driver B's reaction times are probably four times longer, and he probably can't remember the last time he had his brakes done.

      This is, of course, an extreme example, but I think it illustrates how ridiculous it is to use an automated device collecting only one or two statistics to decide insurance rates.

      A more moderate example:
      When weather and traffic conditions are good, and the road allows good visibility (no blind corners, etc.), I tend to drive a little over the speed limit. When conditions are bad, I slow down significantly. Contrast this with people who always drive the speed limit, even when the road is wet or icy, and you'll see that my driving habits are a lot safer.

    2. Re:Wrong Impression! by AstynaxX · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The idea of signing up for this willingly boggles my mind. You mean to tell me that you -never-, not -once-, end up going a few miles over the posted speed limits? Sorry, no one is that perfect. Beyond that, going over the limit -is- allowable under very limited circumstances [like passing a car you belive to be a danger]. Beyond that, it is a fact that most roads [with the exception of very old ones] are designed to support speeds 5-15 mph higher than the posted limit [if you don't believe me, try it out. Get on any Interstate when traffic is fairly light, observe the limit, add 10 mph and drive at that speed. 99% of the time, it will feel natural and safe. Now speed up another 10 mph. Feels a bit unstable doesn't it?]. Most times, speed limits have nothing to do with the actual speed the road can be driven upon safely, they have to do with zoning [oops, residential. The road is 4 lanes and straight as an arrow, but the speed limit is still 25 mph], studies on gas mileage/emissions [this is where the old 55 mph mandate came from], or the simple desire of a locality to bring in revenue by deliberately lowering limits to a speed that is near maddening [see the accounts of a few Florida towns].

      Oh, BTW, if you honestly believe the insurance companies will lower anybody's rates because of this, I have a bridge to sell you.

      --
      -={(Astynax)}=-
      "Darkness beyond Twilight"
  7. Black Box? by snarkh · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Investigators in protective gear pick through a pile of smoking, twisted metal for clues to the crash. One reaches down, pries back some steel and pulls the black box from the wreckage.

    These boxes are in fact orange!

  8. Some already have it by alanjstr · · Score: 5, Informative
    "Eleven of the 45 companies that build passenger cars worldwide already use some kind of black-box technology, according to representatives of the IEEE. The best-known of those is General Motors Corp., which said three years ago that it includes the device, known as a sensing and diagnostics module, as part of its airbag sensing systems on most GM vehicles. The module can store such information as engine speed, vehicle speed, airbag deployment, seat belt deployment and the state of the brakes before and during an accident. "

    Its just not a standard yet.

  9. Re:speed monitoring by Sircus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You *can* drive safely at 90. Try visiting Germany (I'm English, but I live in Germany) for a fine practical demonstration. Most of the Autobahnen have no speed limit. I regularly drive 100-110mph and I'm regularly overtaken (by people with better cars). The annual likelihood of an American driver being involved in a fatal accident are 1 in 4,503. For a German driver, they're 1 in 6,676.

    People are that much more alert about changing lane, staying in the correct lane, etc., when there's a possibility there's a Mercedes in the lane they're changing to, travelling 50mph faster than they are.

    Most road traffic accidents (and an even higher proportion of fatal accidents) don't occur on motorways. In the normal case, you have a crash on a motorway, there's going to be a 10 or 20mph (or in Germany, say, 50mph) speed difference between the two cars. Have a head-on crash on a road with a 30mph speed limit, you've got a 60mph speed difference. It's the small local roads that need the attention, not the motorways/highways/turnpikes/autobahnen/pick-your- word.

    --
    PenguiNet: the (shareware) Windows SSH client
  10. This has been done before by jrp2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    This was done secretly a while back by the NTSB. While studying the data they noticed something intersting. In almost all states an average of 86.7% of the driver's last words before an accident were "OH SHIT". The only exception was Tennessee where in 63.2% of the accidents the last words were "Hey Bubba, watch this" ;)

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    --
    The only athletic sport I ever mastered was backgammon - Douglas William Jerrold
  11. Worried about being fined for speeding? by Decimal · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hey, I've found a neat way to avoid getting speeding tickets. Here's how it works. It turns out that on almost any public road there will occassionally be little white signs on the side that have a number on them. There's also this little indicator behind the steering wheel that has its own number that goes up or down depending on how hard you push the gas pedal.

    Now here's the trick: If you make sure the number on this "speedometer" doesn't exceed the numbers on these "speed limit" signs, you can cruise right on past the cops and they don't even seem to notice you! Just leave a few minutes earlier and you can get to where you're going on time without anybody stopping you to harass you about your velocity. Works like a charm!

    Psst, don't tell too many people. The cops might start to catch on that we've found a way to avoid them. Heh, those suckers.

    /attempt at humor>

    --

    Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
  12. What a waste of time and money. by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I admit it. I speed every day. Yes, that's *every* single day that I use the roads. 99% of other road users do exactly the same and you know what?

    The roads are safer than houses. In the UK, you have more chance of being killed by an accident in your home than you have on the roads. Don't believe me? 4000 people killed in accidents in the home in 2000 and 3,500 killed on the roads.

    Speeding is only targeted because speed is easy to measure. That's it. It's a cop out. The fastest roads (the motorways) are also by far the safest roads.

    The vast majority of accidents occur in urban roads with a 30 limit at a junction and *don't* involve speeding. They are caused by lack of observation. "Sorry Mate I Didn't See You".

    Putting black boxes into vehicles isn't in any way going to improve driver observation.

    What just might improve road safety? Compulsory driving tests after an accident or compulsory advanced motorist training might just make a difference.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  13. A nice idea but... by mrBoB · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I'm always paranoid about collection devices that have the ability to beam data back to a central repository. I'm concerned with the abuse of such systems. Instead (in addition, who knows) of raising your rates, insurance companies would have data available to them that would allow them to completely drop policies, or give them impetus to call you, suggesting you "raise your premium or coverages" due to your driving habits! On the other hand, if this device has the ability to beam back driving data, what keeps it from beaming back position information? Law enforcement/ insurance might ask to have such functionality available to them to make it "easier to recover stolen vehicles" or to "keep track of 'rehabilitated' cons."

    Personally, I would be more in favor of a standardized system that would allow Police to pull data off a wrecked car to find out more about the crash. Since, as other people have mentioned, it would be hard put to use such a device to determine LIABILITY, Police (and Insurance) will still need to be satisfied with witness testimony. Being required to actively "pull" data from such a system, the potential for abuse will be greatly diminished.

    -Bob

  14. There's a Reason for That by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Interesting
    In Germany you actually have to be able to drive before being given a drivers license. Getting a driver's license there is a significant investment of time, energy and money.

    Here they'll give any nimrod who walks in the door a license. I used to live down in Florida and they always had horror stories like the one about the 86 year old lady who was legally blind and failed her driving test 26 times before finally managing to do well enough to get a license. You can't go flying down I95 at 90mph because someone like that will cut you off doing 45mph. Of course, that doesn't stop people from flying down I95 at 90mph...

    There are sections of interstate near my house where the average speed of traffic is 90-100 mph and those speeds are not intimidating as long as you've got a mile or so of visibility to see what traffic's doing ahead of you. Most of the drivers on the road here don't pay enough attention to be able to maintain such speeds safely. I don't think the ever-popular SUV will ever be safe at those speeds. Especially with the driver yacking on a cell phone.

    It would be easily possible to actually monitor and ticket every car on the road going over the speed limit but if that happened here in the states, the speed limits would be quickly raised or eliminated on the highways, since it'd piss off literally every driver in the country, and almost all those drivers are eligable to vote. Selective enforcement, while technically illegal, works fine for keeping most drivers to within 10-20 mph over the posted speed limits.

    The arbitrary nature of the speed limits are a pain in the ass though. I've been dinged for going 20 over the speed limit at 2 in the morning with no other cars on the road. And you can't argue that, even though road conditions were perfect for it. And I've seen people doing the posted speed limit in conditions where that was extremely dangerous. I'd like to see road conditions play more of a part, but I guess you can't trust many of the drivers on the road here to be able to judge them correctly.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  15. Re:I think this is a great idea. by Decimal · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well, according to your black box, your lights were on, and you had come to a complete stop.

    ...horizontally across the freeway. Who's fault? :)

    --

    Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
  16. Re:paranoia by gilroy · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Blockquoth the poster:

    Anyhow, if insurance rates do go up for speeders, they should correspondingly go down for those who abide the speed limit.

    They should. That doesn't mean they will... auto insurance, being a state-mandated service, is not exactly the model of capitalism one would hope.
    --
    The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
  17. Re:I offer you several different points of view... by BlueUnderwear · · Score: 3
    Each and every one of us in a car is weilding 3000 lbs (minimum) of momentum.

    ...as a physicist:
    Pounds (lbs) are a unit of force or of mass. For momentum, you'd use lb*ft/sec.

    --
    Say no to software patents.