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Hybrid Powertrains and Hydrogen Fuel Cells

Posted by michael on from the stick-shift dept.

An Anonymous Coward writes "Nice article from cars.com detailing a panel dicussion with reps from Chrysler Group, Ford, General Motors and American Honda agreeing that hybrid powertrains and hydrogen fuel cells are the future of automotive propulsion, and discussing their companies' different approaches in both areas."

15 of 275 comments (clear)

  1. Honda Civic Hybrid by noodlez84 · · Score: 5, Informative

    It may be interesting to some of you that Honda is releasing (for its 2003 model year) a hydrid version of its Honda Civic, named Honda Civic Hybrid. It is a four-door sedan with gas mileage in the upper-40s / lower-50s.

    This proves that electric hydrids are not only available technologically-speaking, but that they are commercially viable. Now imagine what would happen if a tax break (perhaps coinciding with George W. Bush's huge breaks) were offered for electric hybrid vehicles. It would stimulate the economy _and_ lower taxes. Of course, the oil industry wouldn't be too happy because of lower profits. Boo-hoo. Gas mileage has been going _down_ since 1986, when it peaked in the upper-20s (about 29).

    BTW, you might want to read a review of the Honda Civic.

    1. Re:Honda Civic Hybrid by Herbmaster · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is cool and all, but consider the 2003 Civic Hybrid against my car, the 2002 Civic HX:
      The Hybrid gets a few more features (ABS, cd player, power windows) and a whopping 13/7 more MPG of fuel efficiency.
      My car gets most of the same features (including automatic (CVT) trans and AC), 20-25 more HP, for about $5000 less.
      Losing 25 horsepower while gaining about 150 lbs, on a car that wasn't particularly muscular to start out with, with the price difference in the wrong direction, isn't especially "viable". At current gas prices, $5000 = 650000 miles before you break even going with the hybrid. No.

      --
      I'm not a smorgasbord.
  2. Re:Hydrogen is not free by Turing+Machine · · Score: 2, Informative

    Until recently I would have agreed with you, but see this recent Slashdot story .

    If this does become feasible it'll take much research and lots of capital, I'm sure, but it's still pretty cool.

  3. Re:Hydrogen is not free by hex1848 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Despite folks who see hydrogen as free, current process require significant amounts of energy to get at hydrogen.

    This article was posted on slashdot last week..

    "The most promising source of the hydrogen may be geological "traps" similar to those now drilled for natural gas. Professor Freund said: "One of these natural hydrogen fields is already known to exist in North America, and extends from Canada to Kansas."

    Apparently mining these geological "traps" would be no more energy intensive then current natural gas mining. And with such a vast supply right here in the United States, it like this is an inevitable migration.

    I wonder If the oil companies are starting to look into hydrogen as the next money maker. They have the infrastructure (gas stations, transportation) to do it, it seems like it would be a no brainier to jump right in.

  4. Toyota Prius by fo0bar · · Score: 3, Informative
    (No, arouse.net is not a porn site :)

    On Tuesday I bought a Toyota Prius, mentioned in the article. Very nice car for the dollar. Hybrid gas/electric car, uses the gas engine only when needed. In fact, I still haven't gotten used to the fact that the onboard computer will actually turn off the engine while driving, when it is not needed.

    Gas mileage on the sticker is very impressive. 52 city, 45 highway. No, that is not a typo. It actually performs better in traffic, mostly because slow acceleration is almost exclusively under electric power. Coasting and deceleration use regenerative braking to recharge the battery, meaning you never have to plug the car into an external power source.

    This car is the perfect geek toy -- many functions are performed via the touchscreen LCD screen, and all the other displays are 100% digital. Sound system is very good for a stock system, and you gotta love the static cling sticker on the back: Eat my voltage.

    Sticker price was about $21k, and from my experience, has been worth it. I'm currently getting about 42MPG according to the consumption display. More pics are located here.

  5. Turbine engines failed miserably. by rebelcool · · Score: 3, Informative
    One year an indy 500 car tried a turbine engine, it was terrible.

    The main reason is that turbines don't rev like normal engines do. They're designed to be kept at a constant speed for long amounts of time.
    They also accelerate to a higher speed slower, as well as decelerate slower (an innate characteristic of turbines)

    Recent advances of CVT's (continously variable transmissions) can help ease the inherent problem with turbines, but its hardly worth taking time and research away from the hybrid and fuel cell cars, which are truly the future of automobiles (electric motors are vastly more efficient and powerful than combustions), to go back to something that was tried and failed already.

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  6. Like a 4-door Insight... read about it at... by aquarian · · Score: 3, Informative

    The new hybrid Civic is like a 4-door Insight. I believe the main difference in the drivetrain is that it uses a 4 cylinder motor instead of a 3. It has a CVT transmission, and I assume a manual too. You can read more about it at www.evworld.com.

  7. Promotion and FUD in the Same Article... by NeuroManson · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Hydrogen can neither be mined nor found through exploration.": Wrong.

    Recently NASA discovered that large concentrations of hydrogen gas exist in the earth's rocky crust (as much as several hundred pounds of hydrogen in a cubic meter of rock). It can be mined, and as NASA has proven HAS been found through exploration. Mind you, not the same variety as "Lets blow a hole in the ground and see what comes up", but still far more available than previously believed. Essentially left over gasses from the formation of the solar system.

    Mining can still be environmentally damaging if not inefficient, but still can be much more economical than existing means of hydrogen extraction.

    --
    Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
  8. Why not aluminum as the storage medium? by Zondar · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.keelynet.com/energy/cornish.htm
    (not my site, just the first mirror I could find)

    I'm sure some of you have seen this, but most of you haven't. It's a device which uses aluminum as the 'storage medium' for energy. It was patented back in 1988 in Cornish, England. The original website (layo.com) no longer exists, but you can find many mirrors to the pages.

    At first glance, you'll think the process is straight hydrolysis, but it's not. Pure aluminum wire (abundant in supply as welding wire today) is fed against a spinning aluminum drum. An 18Kv differential is maintained across the interface between the wire and the drum. The entire apparatus is immersed in plain old H2O.

    From my admittedly lacking understanding chemically, the aluminum and the O2 bind, liberating H2 as a gas. Here's the formula they give at the websites:

    2al+3h2o ---- A12 + 3H2

    I know the numbers don't add up, and I know the oxygen seems to disappear, but I'm sure it's a typo. Certainly there's some slashdot expert out there can correct it.

    The apparatus was supposedly test by none other than BMW back in 1981 with positive results:

    "The unit as present assembled in a 2000cc car produced sufficient gas to power the engine continuously.

    The aluminum consumption averaged out at 180 cm per minute over a 70 minute test run."

    This device may solve the energy storage problem with excellent safety aspects, since only a small amount of H2 gas is maintained in the device at any time. The world is very experienced at taking refining aluminum, so it could easily be recycled back into the process at fueling time. Basically, you would put a wire canister and some water in your car to 'fuel up'.

    I've tried for a while to find a way to develop this as a product, but I simply don't have the time. Therefore I urge the slashdot community to develop this, OPEN SOURCE even. :)

    Zondar

    1. Re:Why not aluminum as the storage medium? by mamba-mamba · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think the reaction is as follows:

      2Al + 3H2O --> Al203 + 3H2

      I think Al2O3 is standard aluminum oxide (white powdery substance).

      In other words, pure aluminum metal is oxidized, and as a by-product, hydrogen is evolved. I always thought that the hydrogen-oxygen bond in water stored MORE potential energy than the aluminum-oxygen bond in Al2O3 (aluminum oxide), which would make the above reaction endothermic (meaning that it wouldn't happen without supplying some energy from somewhere else). I could be wrong, though. In any event, it is certainly possible to extract energy from aluminum, one way or another. It is not obvious that it is better to do so than to simply use hydrogen directly.

      MM
      --

      --
      By including this sig, the copyright holders of this work or collection unreservedly place it in the public domain.
    2. Re:Why not aluminum as the storage medium? by kaijura · · Score: 2, Informative

      Interesting - I'm thinking about this chemical rxn also. On first glance my gut reaction was that this is an exothermic process [i tend to thing of breaking bonds as endothermic and creating bonds as exo]. I'm thinking, hmmmm, put some pure aluminum powder into a glass of purified water and you SHOULD get heat, H2 and the aluminum oxide as a by-product. Someone correct me but this appears to be exo and sounds like a pretty cool idea to me

  9. Re:What's your electric bill running now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    huh? You do realize that the prius' batteries are charged by the gasoline engine, yes? That's why it's a hybrid gas/electric. Gas engine + electric engine. Why on earth would they have you charge the batteries from something else?

    (am not the original poster)

  10. Re:What about Alcohol? by Wolfger · · Score: 2, Informative

    " I know gasohol turned everyone off of it, but alcohol is the best fuel to use.

    Just don't run out of gas between 2AM and 8AM. Or before Noon on Sunday (or Sunday at all in some states).

    Seriously, though, alcohol is a lousy source of fuel compared to fuel cells. Highly flammable (well, okay, so is hydrogen :). Produces pollution (fuel cells only produce water as a byproduct). Still requires a noisy combustion engine. And it would drive the price of alcohol up, which is bad.

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    Nothing to see here. Move along.
  11. Some more links for folks ... by felicity · · Score: 3, Informative
    I own a Toyota Prius, and love every minute of driving it. I have been promoting hybrids at work and came up with this list of URLs about the various mass-produced "green"/alternate fuel vehicles available today. There are also some other links associated with these cars (fuel efficiency guides, etc.) I know it's not a complete list, but it's a decent representation of what's out there. Here you go ... :)

    There's a good amount of information available about clean vehicles at:

  12. Re:Its all about power, baby... by mrv · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well, with the 350 N-m/258 lb.-ft. @ 0-400 rpm of torque available from my Prius' electric motors from a stop, there isn't a car that can pass me from a standing stop (say, a red light) unless I let it...

    A common adage is horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races...

    Info about my Toyota Prius (including MPG charts and such): http://www.kluge.net/~felicity/prius.php

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    -mrv