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Is Programming a Dead End Job?
Embedded Geek asks: "There's an interesting opinion piece at Embedded Systems Magazine about [embedded] programming being a dead end job. The author cites burnout ('Pushing ones and zeroes around doesn't sound like a lot of work, but getting each and every one of a hundred million perfect is tremendously difficult.'), prestige, and skill obsolescence as big reasons for programmers to quit or to go 'over to the dark side' and join management or marketing positions. While the piece primarily addresses embedded programmers, the issue is rising for IT workers and other tech workers. When the age issue is combined with the export of jobs offshore, it makes me nervous just to be pushing 35..." Even though the market is going thru a rough patch, and the number of detrimental aspects to programming are increasing (ageism and so forth), I still do not feel that programming is a dead end job. Computers are going nowhere folks, and as long as they are around, programmers will be necessary. People who are in this career for the money or the prestige may not like it after a while, but the people who are in this for something else will tolerate quite a bit before deciding to opt out. The simple measure here: "as long as you love doing it, you'll keep doing it." Isn't this true for any career?
I think part of this depends on how broad your skills are. Changing careers is very common these days, sticking with one career until the end of time is not. If you've actually spent the time to expand your education (and yourself) to something aside from a few specific thats will get you a good job out of college, then you will have the ability to migrate horizontally and vertically in life. I think it is fairly safe to say that you are less inclined to "burn out" if you are a jack of many trades, as opposed to a master of one.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
If you are just code monkeying the latest VB or Perl for some inane business requirement or .com "solution", or administrate a few boxes in the average office, however, you are a dime a dozen -- and your brain is dead whilst doing the job -- which is my definition of "dead end". Do it to learn the ropes or for a bit of money on the side, by all means, but don't pretend anything else.
Everyone, and I mean absolutely every person I talked to told me to go into programming. I think people who don't understand the market to well see people like Bill Gates and think that there must be tons of money for geeks to fork in. The problem is that adults indiscriminately influence students to become 'computer professionals'. The reason I decided to take a different route is that I'm afraid that as more and more of these programmers flood the market place salaries are going to go way down as job opportunities become less prevalent. Besides that, computers are my hobby and I would like to keep it that way. If had to look at a computer screen all day I would hate the thing. It took me a long time to send this post between other tasks I hope its not become redundant already, but I will sent my apologies now just in case
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Rough Patch?
Come on.. We have been hiring for a long time now. There are plenty of jobs out there.
I am so sick and tired of people claiming there is no jobs out there. We try to find real programmers, you know the ones that can program in C on a UNIX environment. The problems we find in hiring people is that they want to be "Network Admins" or "Web Programmers". Give me a break, go to a 2 year college for that, dont get a CS degree for a Network Admin job.
Also, ever hear of jobs being out there but people are not willingn to take the "cut" in pay? Making 70k is NOT a bad thing, its a JOB and a good thing in most areas. Ever notice how people with less experience are turning down jobs that pay more than your job? They are thrill seekers if you ask me. There are so many jobs in traditional Military application areas and systems areas it is not funny.
Anyone want to please send me your resume.
winston@mageslair.net
and I will talk to you. YES I will try and see if you want the job, and talk to you about it. Considering I can make a good buck on good people, I am willing to talk to people who are smart, good, fun, and willing to take good money, excellent benefits, great job over "perfect money" and a "network admin" job.
Sorry for the rant, but when many companies like where I work are hurting for C/C++ programmers and all I hear is "We cant find jobs" the answer is GROW UP, there are plenty of jobs around.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
I live in one of the most expensive property areas in the country, and the only reason I can survive is because I still live with my parents.
This was the best kick in the balls I've ever had to tell me NEVER, EVER to follow programming (at least as an employee) as a career.
If you look at the number of CS graduates at any level: bachelors, masters, Ph.D you will find that since the early 80s the numbers all go down.
Meanwhile every company that wishes to not go out of business uses computers more and more. The number of jobs naturally goes up.
Now supply and demand says that there are not enough qualified people to fill the jobs. Managers will hire people who are highly underqualified because they are desperate.
Why we think this is a dead end job is because companies try to get their few competant employees to get all the work done, an impossible task. The result is lots of overtime which salaried workers don't see any extra money for. There is also a lot of pressure and stress.
What employees don't realize is that it doesn't have to be this way. We have what they need. Say "if I have to work overtime on a regular basis I will find another job" and you'd be suprised how scared they are of losing you.
I work 40 hours a week most weeks. I don't think I've ever put in more than 50, ever. I am paid better than my manager. My company needs me. Your company needs you as well.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human.
You simply cannot get a job, even with current skills and a solid history. There is an inherent bias against over 40 coders, we are expected to have moved into management. After the dot com collapse and then the telecom collapse, there are a lot of over 40 coders out there from the mass layoffs.
I am one of them, 44 to be precise. I originally used to put my employemnt history back into the 1980's, and put the years my degrees were granted. And for some reason I never got a call back. So I took all the stuff prior to 1992 out, removed the dates from the degrees, and put the resume back out there.
Within a week, I got 4 job calls where my qualifications and resume were deemed "excellent" on by reviewers on phone interviews, and I aced the tech interviews over the phone as well (I used to be the guy in my group that did the C++ and Java tech screening!). Plus my references were checked, and I have excellent references. I generally interview quite well in person or over the phone, having been a member of Toastmasters due to needing speaking/presentation skills at my old company. Listening is as important as talking.
But when I show up at the "final" interview, in a nice tailored conservative business suit, with my short but gray hair, all of a sudden they seemed to get cold feet. And within a week of each interview every single one of them sent me a "Regretfully you do not meet the qualifications, your resume will be on file for one year" letter.
As long as this continues, then programming *is* a dead end job. You can get snarky if you like, but you'll be here in my shoes one day if you live that long, and you will be wondering why you cant get hired even though you can code circles around half their staff.
FYI, I did get a contract job 2 weeks later where all the business was conducted over the phone. I have had my contract renewed with a raise due to performance, twice, and thats despite the company going through 3 layoffs.
But I learned my lesson, Im getting my MBA and moving into management, even though I make a hell of a lot better systems-architect or software-engineer or developer/coder than I do a manager. I will miss coding for a living, but I'll not play martyr at the expense of my wife and children.
I got a degree in Computer Science from Waterloo University. I am beginning to think I wasted 5 years of my life. U of W is one of Canada's best for CS... they came in 3rd in the last ACM contest behind MIT and Shanghi.
The degree was a lot of work. Many of my friends failed out. There was only 13% girls in my classes and most guys did not have or a girlfriend or have time for one during those five years. I had co-op work experience and had no problem finding a job at Cisco when I graduated. A year and a half later they shut down our division. Now it has almost been a year now and I still can't find work. I have skills such as Java and C++ and excellent references... but no one is hiring.
I remember a long time ago someone from Microsoft made some comment about Open Source hurting the industry. At the time I thought it was an absurd comment. But lately I've been thinking it may be true. a few years ago if I wanted a library API for some network protocol my company would have had to purchase something. However, now there is almost always a free alternative that is of great quality... so there is less and less companies paying people to program things because there are free ones out there. I dunno.. just a thought.
But still... if I had gotten something like a music degree.... I'd probably be equally unemployed right now.... but I'd probably be married too and maybe a little happier.
1. If you're in this for the money, get another job. I'm in this for the intellectual stimulation. The fact is, I live in a country in which the standard of living is enormously high compared to the rest of the world. I make enough to live in a nice house, send my kids to college and buy fun toys. I'm doing just fine. Going into management to make a few more bucks is not going to make me any happier. You need to realize when enough is enough, moneywise.
1. I have yet to find an employer who is suffering from a glut of programming talent. If you're good, there will always be work. You just have to stay sharp and keep your skills up. It also helps to not work in an area which is fueled by young, underpaid programmers (such as the game
industry).
1. A great way to keep your skills up is to teach, using your gray hairs to other's advantage. I personally set aside one day a week for teaching. It's a money loss, but still rewarding professionally and pschologically.
0. Sometimes it sucks being managed by folks who are significantly younger than you. This is a psychological issue that many of us will all have to deal with as we get older, regardless of the profession.
1. On the plus side, one of the advantages of getting older is finding the rare job which has good management and sticking with it, instead of constantly searching for greater prestige and a fatter paycheck. I've been burnt multiple times by accepting more money to work for folks I don't respect. No more of that, hopefully!
actually gates is a genius programmer...
Uh... really? Paul Allen was always the "genius" coder. (disclosure: the company I work for is owned by PA) Everything I've ever heard about Gates' actual *code* was that he was only mediocre. That's not to say he was BAD at it, just only ok. On the other hand, he *is* a genious capitalist, or rather, he's really good at exploiting American style capitalism through admittedly brilliant but wholly fucking evil marketing tactics, and making a gazillion bucks in the process.
his accomplishments back in the day far supercede anything ANYONE who posts to this site have accomplished.
no. Once again, almost all the hardcore coding shit from MS was Paul Allen. And as for Bill being a better coder than *any* Slashdot poster? I'm pretty sure that's bullshit.
The Free desktop that Just Works
How many of you know anyone who actually stays in one career for life? Maybe if you consider your grandparents but let's talk about the world today. Even most of your parents have probably made a half-dozen or so career moves. Regardless of whether you become obsolete, there is a natural progression a person will take during their lifetime. As a person grows and matures, so do their career aspirations. People always want something more than they have, that is what keeps us moving. If you stopped wanting something better, then you become that 50 year-old who only learned COBOL. If your career aspiration is to program until you retire, then that motivation will keep you on the cutting edge. I have been to plenty of conferences with 50 year-old developers and in my opinion, those are sometimes the most intelligent people in the room. Sure, many programmers tire of learning new technologies and eventually move on to management, consulting, or something else completely-- doesn't that happen with any career? If you ask me, the piece is rediculous.
How many of you work with completely incompetant developers? I mean the people who just skated through school or didn't go at all but somehow kissed enough ass to earn the title? As long as those people exist, and they always will, your job will be secure.
http://www.askthevoid.com
Progamming in the modern world of computing is a one-time job. Software is written once, and used many, many times. Yes, there is software revision, upgrades, etc., but the bulk of work being done is being done by the /few/, for the /many/.
Therefore, there are only going to be a small amount of meaningful programming jobs relative to the computing industry as a whole, unless the general attitude towards software changes dramatically.
Now, administration is a whole different story. because software tends to be written by the few for the many, there are bound to be issues that those few never thought of. Administration is an ongoing job that everyone needs.
Personally, I think this is a big, secondary reason that so many geeks are perpetually hyped about open source software. It seems to promise that software development will cease to be a few-to-many service, and become a many-to-many service. I think there are a lot of geeks out there working in administration, frustrated with their jobs, wishing to become guru kernal hackers. They feel that if the IT world at large would simply embrace open source, tons of programming jobs would open up for companies wanting to customize and enhance software to fit their needs.
Unfortunately, the reality is not that development is a few-to-many business because of the closed-source model. Rather, development is done the way it is because proramming is *hard*. Nitty-gritty, systems development (as opposed to Web developemnt, or writing DB front ends, or using some SDK with the hard stuff taken care of already) takes real talent, and very few have the talent necessary. Furthermore, it is many, many times more cost-effective to buy software off the shelf (be it open- or closed-source) and pay for high administrative costs than it is to custom-design software to fit an organization's exact needs.
My advice to CS majors is to get used to the idea that you probably won't be coding linked lists and creating filesystems for a living. Learn to be a good Unix admin, how to be a DBA, how to troubleshoot buggy applications and OSes. Learn how to assist and teach non-clued end-users. 1% of CS grads are going to be programmers and software engineers. Guess what the other 99% get to do?
dinner: it's what's for beer
I worked for a manager who had been a developer. After about a year, he decided that he hated managing. So, he went out and recruited a replacement for himself, and went back into development. I'm almost certain his salary remained the same.
Listen, we all know that programming can be an enjoyable and rewarding (personally and financially). The question is whether or not programmers face limited career options as they get older - perhaps because there is not an established career path for programmers, or because managers perceive it to be more cost effective to hire younger replacements, etc.
It does seem to be true that historically computer programmers have found themselves outside of traditional career paths. I know that in 1968 the ACM SIGCPR (Special Interest Group on Computer Personnel Research) issued a report that argued that
"There is a tendency for programming to be a `dead-end' profession for many individuals, who, no matter how good they are as programmers, will never make the transitioni nto a supervisory slot. And, in too manyi nstances this is the only road to advancement."
It is not difficult to find more contemporary researchers making similar claims. Again, the argument is not that programming is a poor career choice, but whether or not programmers - as compared to engineers, for example - are able to move upwards within a traditional corporate hierarchy. The evidence suggests that this indeed may be true. It might be true for the wrong reasons, but it still might be true.
I see these trends:(1) more offshore work, (2)much more packaged software instead of homegrown application development by businesses,(3)more use of Excel and similar instead of homegrown application development by businesses, (4) perpetual stream of new buzzwords from vendors looking for sales angles in a saturated market (entry into the software market is pretty cheap).
The buzzwords give you a choice -- either (a) invest 25% of your time forever trying to stay up-to-date, or (b) make some decent money applying what you already know and plan to find another profession in a few years. I went option (b), and I'm in a predicament for sure.
The buzzwords are death to me. Much of software is pretty easy, point and click. That's what all the products are, point and click with integrated help. The learning curve can't possibly be more than a week for someone with a grasp of the underlying concepts. (I'm talking development, not system administration or database administration and tuning here, I know those do have a learning curve) If you can manage a project with one project management tool, you can probably do it with most of the others. If you can design a database with one data modeling program, or even with a pencil and paper, you can probably do it with most of the data modeling programs.
But look at the job postings; most of them want 2, 3, or five years experience with 6-20 specific tools (and often specific versions of those tools). That's why 80% lie on their resumes, I suppose -- very few will have the exact combination any of these jobs requires. I guess they figure that the young guys can learn and they will make exceptions for someone young and eager, but old and eager is not a combination that anyone can even imagine to exist. I've had two interviews recently in which I was told that the company was expecting to hire someone younger and I was asked why they should hire an old guy instead of a young guy. This is illegal, but they do it.
Keep your buzzwords up to date and be a manager before you are 30.
It should be noted that Embedded programmer, just like Electrical Engineers, get the shaft big time. Experienced web programmers (non-Microsoft), and many IT positions (like Oracle DBA's) can grab six figure salaries. It's a shame really because I have a great deal of respect for the low level guys, who really have to have a much bigger grasp of logic than those of us working on the higher levels. There are of course exceptions, senior engineers, and managing engineers, but most shops that deal with embedded and EEs have one or two top dogs to a dozen or so poorly (relatively speaking) peons.
I don't find out of country work a problem though. They just don't perform as well as the lazy American counter parts. The money you save in labor costs disappears as when you have a much longer bug/enhancement cycle. Most of which is caused by a culture/language gap.
Outsource to India can work well if you have a product that you have specific bug fixes that need to be done. But new products that require a really good analyst to have face side with the business and really hammer out details. Business like working face to face with someone who knows the lingo and can instill confidence. And they are willing to pay two to three times as much for that fuzzy feeling.
Hell, I love to hack...when I get home. My job has become more a place where they issue paychecks rather than the place where I code. Why?
Because of everything else unrelated to coding that I have to fend off: meetings, fickle graphic designers, shrinkwrap software that doesn't work and I end up "supporting," a boss that buys servers by the bushel because we have to use or lose our budget.
In short, I already am a manager.
Besides, at age 29, I cannot see myself with a family (I want one) if I'm spending 8-12 hours in front of a computer by day and a couple more by night to hone my skills. I don't instant message, own or carry a cell phone or pager, or pick up a phone without screening it via answering machine, and I still don't have a life to speak of. I've forgotten what a tit feels like!
Actually, I take that back. I'm growing my own.
I love programming. But it is a solitary discipline in its purest form. Unfortunately, there's too many people throwing their hats into the design process. And then you start coding from specs, and the specs change.
So lately, I'm neither programmer or social butterfly. I could code righteously, but only if there's nothing to code. It's a Catch-22. Yossarian lives!
Ok, first of all, I am over forty.
Secondly, I worked a LOT of different types of jobs before breaking into the computer industry. Mostly these were factory/unskilled worker type jobs. I also spent 10 years a a machinist (not much different than the factory work, except I was then considered "skilled"). All I have to say is, if you think your job is a dead end job, you should do some of those types of jobs for a while. You won't make half as much money, much of the time you will be risking serious injury all day long, working conditions are generally filthy...
Being burned out in that cubicle working on the same code over and over for what you consider to be not enough money will seem like a dream job in no time!
Last year, doing embedded drivers and OS internals, I was paid more than the CEOs of my company or any of our clients. And I had December off.
This year, I have yet to swing a keyboard in anger.
The tech economy has been depressed, but will find its legs, and soon, and all at once, and we'll be back wondering if we can expand the H-1B program from 600k to a million.
Humans can learn from their mistakes. Money can't.