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The Magic Box Hoax

Rasvar writes "Here is an interesting article from The Florida Times-Union about a high tech hoax that managed to pull in the likes of Blockbuster Video, US West, Ted Turner, Sen Orrin Hatch and numerous others. I actually attended one of the "demonstrations" of this device years back. I came away cynical becuase of the way he presented stuff. Sometimes it is good to be a cynic. This is a very good article on an impressive high tech scam."

20 of 448 comments (clear)

  1. Who's to blame? by Devil's+BSD · · Score: 2, Informative

    Madison Priest was a big con-artist, true, but if Ted Turner and the rest did their research, wouldn't they have realized that there are physical limitations to a POTS line's bandwidth?

    --
    I'm the Devil the Windows users warned you about.
    1. Re:Who's to blame? by systemapex · · Score: 4, Informative

      This was the pre-DSL era. Everybody and their brother was supposed to be searching for this very thing - broadband-type bandwidth over standard old telephone lines. These investors wanted to believe in this magic box. When people actually want to believe in something, it becomes orders of magnitude easier to convince them of it. Even so, this guy went to great lengths to convince them. I'm sure there are other, smaller investors that were swindled from shadier, less-convincing con-men using this very same theme.

    2. Re:Who's to blame? by Cramer · · Score: 3, Informative

      BAUD != bit per second
      "an analog phone line" != "an analog phone call"

      There's only so much one can do with 8000 8bit PCM codes per second. As far as the PSTN is concerned, that's it! Engineers have been dreaming up more and more inventive ways to push digital data in an analog form. That's how we have 33.6k (V.34+) and 56k (x2,k56,v.90) -- 56k isn't really an analog encoding it's just straight PCM codes.

      When you take the phone switch(es) out of the middle and try one end of the wire to the antenna of one radio and the other end to an other radio, yes, you can push a great deal of stuff across it. That's how DSL works. It is essitially a trapped radio signal.

    3. Re:Who's to blame? by jrp2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      This was the pre-DSL era. Everybody and their brother was supposed to be searching for this very thing

      Ain't that the truth! At the time that scam artist was operating I was an engineer at US Robotics. We had damn near a revolving door of these kinds of kooks coming in and out. Most never got in, but every now and then one would. As a fairly visible, and known very cynical, engineer, I often was invited to meetings with these types to try to flesh out if they were full of it, or had something interesting. I had 2 favorites, one a scam, the other became 56K.

      The one that was a scam was hysterical. Like the situation in this article, I am pretty sure the guys I met actually believed in it as I think they were too stupid (or too blinded by instant wealth) to know any better. Their "magic software" (yes, they called it just that) would magically give 2 to 5 times better throughput. Over the phone they would not give any details except that it was NOT compression. They would not give me a copy to eval, but offered to fly out to Chicago to give me a demo. So, what the heck, I invited them out to meet with me and the Product Management exec. It ended up being a waste of two hours, but worth it for a good laughable story.

      So, they come out and load their magic on one of our test PCs and demonstrate what was effectively 115 Kbps throughput. Now, remember, at the time the serial port driver that shipped with Windows was limited to 19.2 Kbps. So, when they compared it to a "normal" Windows PC, it was indeed way faster. BUT, we (as well as every other modem mfg) shipped a free driver along with our modem that fixed that problem. MS also fixed the problem in Win98. When I showed them the same type of t-put on another PC in our lab, with the updated driver, their faces dropped, they shook in disbelief that some other genious had discovered this before them. I escorted them out of the building. As a parting gift I gave them a copy of the driver we used, and told them my shortcut back to the airport and recommended a bar on the way.

      My other story is when we met a guy that had been thrown out of Rockwell and Lucent. They had basically told him his invention would never work outside the lab, and the real world phone network would kill it with all it's quirks. He was a Stanford math professor named Dr. Brent Townsend. Though not entirely incorrect, the goofy phone network did pose some serious challenges (particularly in US, Canada and Korea), and it took a couple years to really refine it. His invention was what became 56K (err, 54K, grin) modems. It significantly surpassed what "Shannon's Law" says was the max a voice channel could carry. From what I can tell (a very informed guess), a hair over 90% of the modem using populace (at least in industrialized nations) get at least a significant benefit (stable 42K+ speeds, most around 48K) out of this technology. A technology that almost never happened.

      I mention Dr. Townsend to remind folks that not all the kooks are really kooks. The former (and many other examples) show it pays to be skeptical (and MOST of the kooks really are kooks).

      --
      The only athletic sport I ever mastered was backgammon - Douglas William Jerrold
    4. Re:Who's to blame? by fatphil · · Score: 2, Informative

      When I worked for a telecomms consultancy a few years back I saw with a demonstration of 70Mb/s over standard POTS cable. There's _plenty_ of potential still in copper.

      FP.

      (Who runs 2Mb/s over 5.4km of 4-wire to his ISP using Nokia BB2M-EC, with the modems measuring quality A5, which is basically almost perfect, despite the spec saying the limit is 5.0km - I'm sure these babies will go up to 7 or 8km easily.)

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    5. Re:Who's to blame? by jrp2 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Heh, I'm still getting 28.8 connections out of my USR 56K modem. It's only because there are two A/D conversions between me and the phone C.O.

      Yup, a hair under 10% is a very large number of people. Sorry to hear you are a part of that large minority. Unless you know for a fact you have an additional A/D in the path, be sure to check you have the latest code. There were some significant improvements made to the code, post V.90, that got a whole lot more people working with V.90. A good sign that you have the latest code is if you get 3 "bongs" at the end of the training sequence. Note: not all models had new code built for them. Also note: the third "bong" only kicks in during certain conditions (the modem "thinks" there is a chance it might work). These fixes were to deal with situations like a long local loop (often rural lines) that caused the signal to appear to have encountered an additional A/D when in fact it did not. YMMV.

      --
      The only athletic sport I ever mastered was backgammon - Douglas William Jerrold
  2. patent by j09824 · · Score: 5, Informative

    You can find the patent here. It's completely bogus. Any patent examiner with a minimum background in electrical engineering should have thrown this out, and anybody investing millions of dollars in it should have had it checked out by someone who actually knows something about electrical engineering. This is really no different from the patent and investment follies of the Internet bubble.

    1. Re:patent by phyxeld · · Score: 2, Informative
      Persons responsible for approving this joke of a patent:
      Primary Examiner: Kuntz; Curtis A.
      Assistant Examiner: Eng; George
      --
      __
      Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
  3. Extrodinary claims require extrodinary proof.... by wowbagger · · Score: 5, Informative

    If anyone shows you a "magic box" but won't let you touch it, change the setup of the demonstration, or suggest other ways to test it, RUN !

    This is a classic bit of snake oil - "I have this wonderful thing, and you can get a piece of it, but DON'T GO BACK THERE!"

    That otherwise intelligent people fell for this just goes to show how most of us don't always act logically all the time.

    Besides - pushing video over CAT-3 isn't hard: you just need enough OOMPH to deal with the attenuation, which over a few feet is not so bad. I've seen little boxes you can buy that allow you to send a VCR's output to another room over 100 feet of little thin zip-cord - all they are is a balun (balanced to unbalanced transformer) that matches the 75 ohm output of the VCR to the wire.

    It's pushing that same signal over MILES of cable while somebody else is pushing a different signal over a different pair of wires in the same bundle without interfering with each other that's the tricky bit. Solve that with enough signal to noise ratio to allow multi-megabit transmission, and you will be rich. You also will be violating half a dozen laws of physics, but....

  4. Re:Wanting to believe by norton_I · · Score: 5, Informative

    POTS is, among other things, limited by the resoultion of the ADC at the telco. Since you telephone signal goes into a 64 kbps digital channel there, you cannot get any more than 64 kbps out of the analog end. DSL requires the telco to install new hardware that splits the high frequency and low freqency components, sends one to the phone connection and one to the DSL hardware.

    Even so, noise, loss, and crosstalk are all problems for DSL causing it to be limited range, especially for the high bandwidth versions. In addition, equipment installed to prevent ground loops and improve the quality of audio freqnecy transmission, especially in older or long distance phone runs wasn't designed to pass high frequency and can wreak havoc on DSL. None of these problems have to do with the wire itself, though. Copper has plenty of bandwidth, the purpose of coax and so forth is to decrease losses and interference.

    But it sounds like this guy was claiming to jam several megabits of data through the 64 kbit phone switch, which is obviously impossible.

  5. People never learn by qengho · · Score: 4, Informative

    Wired mag ran a story last year about a guy with a similar scam. P.T. Barnum rules!

  6. not Ted Turner by ruck · · Score: 5, Informative

    According to the article, it was Teddy Turner, Ted Turner's son.

  7. Re:Charlatans Exist Because We Love Them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    carefull that goes to goatse.cx

  8. Re:Here is the schematics, from the patent: by Accelerated+Joe · · Score: 4, Informative

    YHBT Jargon File

    --
    They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
  9. Shannon's law is still safe from Townsend... by bani · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...townsend didn't surpass it!

    The "classic" limitation on analogue dialup modems was the quantization error introduced by the analogue to digital conversion on both ends.

    However -- 56k depends on one end of the connection being DIGITAL . You're eliminating quant error on one side of the connection, thus you can get better downstream speeds. Upstream speeds, if you notice, are still limited to 33.6k due to quant error on the end user's modem.

    There is no magic here. No laws are being surpassed or violated here. Shannon is still safe.

    1. Re:Shannon's law is still safe from Townsend... by jrp2 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The "classic" limitation on analogue dialup modems was the quantization error introduced by the analogue to digital conversion on both ends.

      Technically, you are quite correct, I will not argue with you on that fact from a technical perspective. From a perception perspective, he did indeed. Most folks thought, based on Shannon's statements, that we were done and could not squeeze any more data through using a voice channel. So, in many ways, he really did.

      However -- 56k depends on one end of the connection being DIGITAL . You're eliminating quant error on one side of the connection, thus you can get better downstream speeds. Upstream speeds, if you notice, are still limited to 33.6k due to quant error on the end user's modem

      Hmmm, tell that to the folks using V.92 modems with upstream PCM that claim up to 45K upstream. I have not been involved with them, so can't give you any figures, but I do know that it works for some percentage of the population. From what I understand, quantization is the issue that is keeping it down to 45K, but acquiring timing was the main issue preventing PCM modulation from working in the upstream (A to D) direction. That has now been broken as they figured how to do timing. Yes, this still requires digital on one end, plus I suspect not too many ISPs have installed gear to service it.

      Is this technically breaking Shannon's Law? I am not sure enough to make the bold statement that it is.

      --
      The only athletic sport I ever mastered was backgammon - Douglas William Jerrold
    2. Re:Shannon's law is still safe from Townsend... by Phil+Karn · · Score: 3, Informative
      Is this technically breaking Shannon's Law? I am not sure enough to make the bold statement that it is.

      Nope, it's not breaking the Shannon limit, because nothing can break it. It's impossible. So if somebody does manage exceed the "Shannon limit" on some channel, it can only be because it was incorrectly calculated.

      The Shannon capacity in bits/sec of a noisy, band-limited channel is C = B*log2(1+SNR).

      So to compute the Shannon limit, you need to know both the bandwidth and the signal-to-noise ratio of the channel. Both numbers can vary quite a bit for plain copper pairs. The signal-to-noise ratio is affected by things like attenuation, crosstalk from other pairs and transmit power limitations to avoid crosstalk to other pairs. And bandwidth is affected by the length of the cable, its insulation and wire gauge, the presence of loading coils, etc.

      That's why DSL speeds vary so much from one place to another, and why it's no big deal to send at much faster rates than DSL over short (a few hundred meters max) twisted pairs that have been carefully constructed (i.e., Cat 5 cable).

  10. Some other charlatans in this space: etreppid.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Check out www.etreppid.com to see a company making similar claims with software (basically, the old "unlimited yet perfect compression" scam). The company is ran by Warren Trepp, famous for being the number 2 man in Milken's famous junk bond scam.

  11. It's ironic that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    It's ironic that in making his fake high bandwidth phone line, he actually solved another networking problem - how to make high bandwidth power lines. Sure his solution (running a coax in the power line) isn't a technical revolution, but it is at least as good as every other scheme for doing networking over the power grid.

  12. I saw a demo from these guys... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    I don't remember the exact year, probably like 1996 or so. I was working as an engineer for xxxxx. One of our VPs asked me to go with him to Jacksonville to see a demo of a device which could transport a DS-3 over a dialup line.

    In the demo, however, they were just going to do a DS-1. I took a t-berd DS-1 test set, a Navtel protocol analyzer, and some cables, including a DS-1 loopback plug (RJ-48). We met them at some hospital in Jacksonville, present were Madison Priest and Mark Strong. Mark video taped the whole thing, which made me kind of nervous.

    They took us down to the communications room in the basement of the hospital. There were two Packard Bell computers sitting on the floor. They were both plugged into the same powerstrip. The interesting part was there was not one power cable, but three for each computer. I think two of them ran into one of the ISA slot openings, and were "expoxied" in by what looked like latex caulking. It was a real mess.

    Each computer also had an RJ-45 for the T-1, and an internal analog modem. I plugged the t-1 test set into one computer, and a loopback plug into the other. Madison then used hyperterm or procom (I forget which) to dial from one computer to the other thru the Hospital's PBX. When the modems synced up, the T1 came up. I verified I was seeing the loopback, sent some different bit patterns, and errors. When he pulled the pots line, the T1 went down (loss of signal).

    Next, they wanted to show it ran over long distances. They used one computer to dial a number in my office in xxxx which was forwarded to the number of the other computer next to us. This worked just as expected. The T-1 came right up. We let the test set run awhile to make sure the line was error free. Mark Strong made it a point to videotape him asking me if it was working. About all I could say was that "It appears to be."

    We went to a conference room nearby to talk while the test ran. Madison was pretty strange. He got, what I would term, angry several times during the meeting. I stayed out of it pretty much till at what point our VP asked me what else I needed to verify to make sure that it was capable of carry a T-1. I said I wanted to put the protocol analyzer on the circuit and make a call through xxxx. Then I wanted to send frames and measure the latency of the circuit. I said I know about how much latency I should see, given that signals travel about 100 miles per millisecond.

    Then all hell broke loose. They refused to allow that test, or any others. They claimed I was trying to steal their technology. We ended up packing up and going home.

    Over the next several months, we heard from them about doing more tests. We wanted to do a long distance video feed, but the week that was supposed to happen, weather was not good (I think it was too icy) for their general aviation plane to make it. They started calling themselves VisionTek, and they informed us, of all things, that we wouldn't see the latency we expected because this thing could transfer a signal faster than the speed of light.

    I had suspected the power cords were the actual data path, and my latency test was going to test that theory, but they never allowed it to happen. I don't think they had come up with the "faster than light" story by that time, so I believe we caught them with their pants down.

    I don't think we ever invested any money in them. I always believed it to be a hoax, but was just doing my job to investiagate it. I also knew that Madison Priest was an ex-con, and after witnessing his temper, I didn't want to become any more involved than I had to. I certainly wasn't going to challenge him or do anything that would lead him to believe that I *personally* was the reason he didn't get money from my company.

    As a matter of fact, I think I should post this anonymously if you don't mind...