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Zeppelins on Patrol?

Our Man In Redmond writes "Everything old is new again: The Seattle Post-Inteligencer is reporting that NORAD is considering deploying zeppelins along the west coast and Canadian border to keep an eye out for terrorists. Larger than jumbo jets, easier to repair/upgrade than satellites, this may be an idea whose time has come. Again."

8 of 261 comments (clear)

  1. Nothing to do with "Terror" by sane? · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Come off it, just how is this supposed to fight terrorism ?

    High altitude balloons are hardly likely to trouble an Arab terrorist coming in on the American Airlines redeye service. Let alone the domestic terrorist who lives in Florida and mails you Anthrax.

    Nope, they are useful for three things: observation, communication relay and radar. Now either someone is trying to hop on the 'terrorism' funding bandwagon, or someone is attempting to hide a technology that effect civil liberties under the same cover.

    My personal guess is both. Someone has finally worked out that cruise missiles are easy to knock up and a threat to US cities - hence the need for good look down 24hour radar coverage. At the same time, an observation platform that could hover over a city, watching everyone, but not seen by anyone, has certain advantages.

    Neither really does much to prevent the average terrorist - but its a nice way to sell your system.

  2. What the fuck?! by T.Hobbes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This will be of no use against any terrorist. Even if terrorists did attempt to cross the border outside of official channels (rather than use fake IDs, sailing a boat into a harbour, or simply live in the states themselves, they would be less than .1% of the total number of people trying to skip across the US-Canadian border or any other border. The rest would be boardertown locals, drug smugglers (we all know how effective the war on drugs has been, right?), and immigrants. Already, they try to and fail at stopping two of these groups from crossing the boarder, and in Mexico they even get flashy night-vision kit and a wall. It dosen't work. This won't either - more information just means you know more of what's going on. It dosen't mean you can be everywhere at once. The Zepplins will stand out of TV, however.

  3. War against Terrorism? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How about not funding terrorism in Norther Ireland? That would be a good start. Cheap to implement, too...

    How about not pissing off the Arabs? How about not bombing your allies? Perhaps you could stop arresting foreign nationals for doing things perfectly legally in their own countries?

    Or, alternatively, stick up a great big wall around your country, to keep the "terrorists" out. Yeah, that's a great idea. Or, if you prefer, a "curtain", since you could say it hangs from these dirigibles... A curtain as strong as iron, that would be a great way to describe it... Yep, an "Iron Curtain" around the US. Sounds good to me.

    1. Re:War against Terrorism? by awol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How about not funding terrorism in Norther Ireland?

      I think it is very important to draw the distinction between what the state funds and what free citizens do. Funding terrorist organisations in Ireland is illegal in the US. So is soliciting funds for them. That citizens choose to flaunt the law is not the same thing as the state funding terorism in Ireland (northern or republic of). Further to draw the corollary between funding dirigibles out of govenrment expenditure and the flow of funds from citizens in the US to organisations in Irelend is at best ignorant and at worst disingenuous.

      How about not pissing off the Arabs?

      Whilst it is somewhat flippant of me, I think that pissing of the Arabs as you put it is sufficiently easy (ie for some of them not being muslim is sufficient for some whilst the simple existence of Israel is enough for other's [others are completely tolerant mind you]) that it is impossible not to piss someone off.

      Regardless, I think that if one is willing to argue that _any_ policy warrants the kind of action that has lead to these kind of ideas being floated (excuse the pun) then rational discourse is harldy the vehicle through which you can be persuaded of the folly of your position.

      The irony is that there _are_ sufficient steps that the americans need to take to demonstrate their commitment to avoiding the hypocracy that causes their credibility so many problems. The extent to which they make those steps will determine the extent to whihc they are deserving of coninued support (for example the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation).

      --
      "The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
  4. This is utterly ridiculous. by swaic · · Score: 4, Insightful


    Twice as big as a jumbo jet and soaring twice as high, they may soon be deployed to guard Canada and the United States, scanning for intruders on the Pacific Northwest's long coastline and international border.

    To guard against attacks? How is this going to prevent a determined person from putting a truck bomb in front of a federal building, or preventing someone from flying another plane into a building after coming up with yet another ingenious way of taking control of the plane.

    When was the last time the US had a missile coming from across the oceans to strike them? NORAD detects just about everything airborne, so they'll know if they're under attack. However this will do nothing to stop someone sitting at the end of a busy airport with a shoulder launched SAM and take out a couple planes.

    This is just another ridiculous idea to give the American people a false sense of security. Now don't get me wrong. There may be some merit in these ideas, but I just don't see them. Can someone please enlighten me?

    1. Re:This is utterly ridiculous. by inKubus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      False sense of security? Sorry, that was for the first 6 months. Now it's captialization on the IGNORANCE of the American people. It's amazing that most people are really dumb enough to accept this as being "anti-terrorism".

      In reality, this is just stupid. Then again, the American people will never get a chance to decide because we don't really decide anyway.

      Television decides for us, tells us what to think about the matter, and then we just shrug and go to work.

      I think there needs to be a citizen's veto system:

      Basically, it would be a website ("secure") with a database/list of EVERY U.S. government program. You can run a search, you can browse by category. Next to each program is a check box.. If you, the citizen, feel as though a program is a useless shill and waste of money, you simply click the check box, and submit your veto.

      Seriously, if we do not allow our "democratic" system (which is over 226 years old) to evolve up to our current communication capabilities, we are all going to be lost.

      Of course, even though something like this would be EASY to implement, congress would never give Americans that much power.

      Why? Because they like their jobs, which pretty much consist of accepting money from big business to make laws favorable to said big business. As if they are working for US. This is all mental masturbation. We work for them. We go to our shitty jobs day in and day out, hoping that maybe tomorrow will be better. And we want to do something to change the world but we CAN'T because we are POWERLESS. I thought this was a democracy, but it isn't. It's a REPRESENTATIVE democracy, and the representatives don't represent the average joe; they are rich fucks with fathers and grand-uncles who "served" in congress years before them.

      We are the ones who build this great nation, yet they just fuck around with it and spy on us to make sure we aren't trying to "take away their power" or are "terrorists." Guess what guys, nobody cares.

      Anyway, got off on a rant there, but I was just thinking about an idea I've had for quite sometime, actually since the rise of the WWW in the early 90's: Why not CHANGE the system and make democracy a little more DIRECT?

      Certainly it is within our abilities with our current communcations infrastructure to implement a simple CITIZEN's VETO system, which would allow we, the people, to institute checks and balances on the mainly corrupt government.

      And after that, we could change the entire system over to direct democracy. Personally, I have plenty of time on my hands; I could vote on each new bill in 5 minutes each night (after reading it and doing a little research). That would put the power back towards the people, and stop the idiots in Congress and the Sennate from making decisions about stuff which (as we see a lot) they really have no clue about.

      Let's face it, they are a bunch of old fuckers. Like your grandparents, they cannot use a PC worth a shit and they can hardly program a VCR. Sure, they can clean a gun, but frankly, these old fucks are on the way out.

      The next generation in congress will be the boomers, as all these 70-90 year olds die off, and we need to have a system in place so we, their kids, can keep them in check.

      It's a new world, folks. But it can be two ways: Their world, or OUR world.

      Why the FUCK are we still living in the 1700's when we have had 2 industrial revolutions and a space age?!

      More later.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
  5. cruise missiles != ICBM by (H)elix1 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Someone has finally worked out that cruise missiles are easy to knock up and a threat to US cities Actually they are fucking difficult to make. It's significantly easier to make a nuclear warhead or a biochemical weapon than it is to make an ICBM to deliver it

    Cruise missiles are not much more than big RC airplanes with a payload. The German "buzz bombs" were a good example - a simple gyro and altimeter, a bomb, and enough fuel to make it over to London.

    Think of this with commodity hardware.

    The nav system is not too difficult - something to take the input and correct the course and altitude. A GPS with a COM port and a Palm Pilot makes this really easy (though mine are too clunky to actually put into anything that does not float).

    Power plant - don't think jet, think rotax. Since you are not looking for FAA certification, you would be surprised what you can stuff on an airframe. VW bug engines are used in a number of homebuilt projects.

    Payload. No clue, but I'm sure someone could manage.

    Anyhow, it is probably a mute issue. Cruse missiles are intended to execute an attack from a "safe distance" to prevent retaliation and also obscure where you are attacking from. Way too much harpoon in college... If the terrorist keep up with there current track record, they will just have someone drive/fly the payload in person. Those cruise missiles often have another name - kamikaze.

  6. Re:What having boarder patrols would do... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    is highly unguarded, and allows for basically anyone to pass over with no real effort.


    This is true, however for the vast majority of the border, you would have to slog through dense forest, rugged mountains, or dozens of miles of farmers fields to even approach the border. If you're trying to smuggle in weapons of mass destruction, this makes it very very difficult, unless you use a road.


    Furthermore, I believe any Canadian can waltz through legitimate checkpoints whenever they want, as long as they're not carring prohibited materials.


    As a Canadian who has been turned back on more than one occasion by your... ahem... "jackass" customs guards, I'd like to point out that you are entirely incorrect. Canadians are now and have always been treated like foreigners, despite what your largely ignorant culture assumes about us just being "second class americans".


    Thus, anyone who intentionally avoids those checkpoints may be assumed to be transporting prohibited materials or prohibited people from Canada into the US. Legitimate people who wished to visit the US would cross through the boarder crossing, the 'terrorists' would skip those checkpoints, and these blimps would be better suited to spot such activity from high above for long periods of time.


    This convieniently ignores the FACT that the vast majority of terrorists have entered the USA directly from overseas, without stopping in Canada. For example, ALL the 9/11 terrorists did it this way. Canada in being used by your government as a scape goat to take the pressure off itself for responsibility for allowing these psychotics into your country. Please deal with your own significant problems before you begin accusing others.


    This operates under the assumption that Canadian customs processes aren't secure enough for the US, and thus we need to double check their work. For example, Canadians may freely come and go to Cuba, while members of the US may not. Thus, it stands to reason, that it'd be easier for a Cuban terrorist to enter Canada, and then sneak across the boarder to the US with his vile intentions.


    Again, it is also painfully easy for terrorists to enter the USA directly from other countries without the inconvienience of passing through Canada first. If there are currently 50 terrorist "cells" operating in Canada, then I estimate that there are probably something like 500 cells operating in the USA. Keep that in mind the next time you hear calls for Canada to align its customs and immigration laws to the US.


    Of course, this does very little to stop new terrorist attacks, however the US political mindset right now seems to be 'any minor improvement should be done.' Flying blimps across the boarder decreases the chance of terrorists by a fraction of a fraction of a percent? Do it. Running around declaring people you don't like an Axis of Evil and invading them might stop the family of a suicide bomber from getting some money, go for it. I guess they thing every minor amount will eventually add up.


    No, the mindset is "let's blame Canada so that we can forcefully impose our customs and immigration laws on their people".


    BTW, "border" in this context has no "a" in it.