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File Swapping and the Analog Hole

forehead writes "Lawmeme is running an interesting piece on piracy in the digital age. It covers a number of the logical fallacies often cited by the major media companies and certain lawmakers."

17 of 248 comments (clear)

  1. what the hell is the loss? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    how can you claim a "loss" for pirated materials if the parties in question would nevcer have paid the retail cost for the materials?

    This consistently boggles my mind, all these companies saying "piracy costs us $500 mil a year". Listen, some third world family that makes $100 a month isn't going to pay $700 for office, alright?!?

    -rt

    1. Re:what the hell is the loss? by neuroticia · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Arguments for piracy are foolish and merely forward the agenda of those who are seeking to cripple us in ways that are far more important. Forget about your "so called right" to steal or borrow or copy music or programs in any form. It's irrelevant. It's already been determined that what you are doing is illegal. Get over it.

      The important thing, and the thing that is in danger is our right to fair use, and our right to innovate and push the technology we have at our fingertips. The right to use CDs to back up our files, and the right to duplicate files that rightfully belong to us. The right to have POWERFUL hardware and software that is fully functional without limitations. And the right to determine how/for what purpose this hardware is used for.

      Stop saying "I defend my right to shoot my neighbor because if I didn't have a gun I'd stab him" and start saying "I defend my right to bear firearms." You do not need to push home the point that technology is being used in illegal ways. You need to push home that certain bits of proposed legislation is going to HARM THE RIGHTS THAT WE HAVE.

      Stop letting the REAL issues get so clouded by this tirade about capitalist pigs. We aren't going to change the world for the better this way, but maybe we can at least focus our arguments and keep the rights we have.

      -Sara

    2. Re:what the hell is the loss? by MoneyT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Regarding religions: Religions really only work at the local and individual basis. Any time religion starts to become a massive movement centered arround a single living leader, problems arise. Not nessesarily war, but usualy it does end in blood shed of some type (i.e. crusades, Hitler, Bin Laden, centuries of holy wars). More people have died in the name of God than for any other cause. There's something about this that doesn't fit right with me.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    3. Re:what the hell is the loss? by MoneyT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The other thing that often get's overlooked is that most people given the opportunity, will follow the law if it is easy to do so. Case in point, jay walking. Technicaly it is against the law, yet I'll bet all of us have done it. Yet when we come to a street corner, we don't go out of our way to walk across outside of the cross walk and against the light because following the law is more convenient in this instance.

      So the same would apply to file-sharing and music theft. People would be less inclined to steal music if purchasing the real music was more convenient and more desireable. If I could buy a CD knowing exactly what was on the CD, and at a price which the CD was worth (not $16+ for a 9 song manufactured pop CD) I would be far more inclined to purchase the CD than to download the songs. Partly because it is more convienient to get a guarenteed quality original recording.

      But when one CD costs me 3 hours of work (at minimum wage, for us "middle class teens") it's easier to spend an hour looking for a good quality rip. Every law is followed simply because it is convenient and desireable as compared to the alternative. The same applies to music sharing and boot legging.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
  2. mpaa.com vs mpaa.org by dattaway · · Score: 3, Insightful

    mpaa.com that is link to in the header seems to be a legitimate business, but mpaa.org is the cartel we seem to be concerned with.

    So much for the internic's rule of .com and .org domain rules where .org's are supposed to be "non-profit!"

  3. Re:The real "digital" threat by cadallin451 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "Free software is built on a pre-existing cultural norm - ie hacking - that doesn't exist for these other media."

    I would argue with this point. In what way do hackers differ from other people who make art on an amateur level? There are people who write, produce music, and produce visual arts non-commercially, and some of this material is damn good, such as Penny Arcade, PvP, or Megatokyo. This is true for all media forms and goes back to a central flaw in the media industry's argument.

    They would like us to believe that without commercial distribution i.e them, media would not exist, but this is simply false. Money is not the sole reason people create art, they do so because they enjoy it. They whole idea copyright and IP in US is based around the idea that "Hmm, It would be nice if people who create art could charge for it, allowing them to more easily support themselves and create more." This initial idea was valid and good, but it has now been carried over to the extreme. The media industry now is essentially rabidly trying to destroy non-commercial media, as a threat to their profits.

    The attitudes the RIAA shows towards independent labels and bands are really the opinions the media industry has about all amateurs, if we start amusing ourselves, we won't need them. This is why content creating is in danger from SSCA/CBDTPA. They want us to be locked into them with no other choice.

  4. Re:The real "digital" threat by Dr.+Awktagon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But surely the real 'threat' of digital media is actually the close-to-zero marginal cost of copying the original.

    With a VCR each copy is a real, physical, medium. With digital everything is, well, virtual.

    Yeah, but if you have an analog copy, you make it into a digital copy, and the game's over. And there's always someone who will be able to get a higher-quality "rip" then you did, somewhere, someplace. That's why this is all such a futile waste of effort on their part.

    Unless the {RI,MP}AA manages to outlaw ALL computers and recording devices and criminalize ALL recording not performed by them, an analog->digital rip will always be possible and the content will be available. The world is digital and we can't turn back the wheels of Progress. (In fact we should Promote it!)

    I'm not convinced that model works for music and movies though.

    The basic model they have now seems to be working just fine.. how much did Spiderman make?? All they need to do is lower their expectations of gross margins to the levels of most every other established industry.

  5. Hindering independent filmmakers by captaineo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This article, which I though was generally excellent, unfortunately stops short of naming the MPAA's true goal - continuing its monopoly on the production of blockbuster movies by ensuring that no high-quality filmmaking equipment falls into the hands of non-studio filmmakers.

    Back in the pre-digital days it was easy for a determined independent artist to throw together some analog video equipment (eg consumer VHS decks, camcorders, and mixers) and make a film. The only thing you couldn't easily do is distribute the result to a wide audience...

    Now, thanks to the internet, anyone who can compress some videos and set up a web server can theoretically distribute films.

    *BUT* look at where the technology is going... There is no cheap digital recording and distribution system that is accessible to independent artists. (yeah, DV is fairly cheap - except for editing decks - but you can't *distribute* on DV). You can buy DVD burners for a few hundred dollars now, but consumer-level burners do not let you "author" a properly-formatted, CSS-scrambled DVD like the megadollar Hollywood systems can. And there is certainly no low-cost high-definition format on the horizon - HDCAM is insanely expensive, and HD DVD will be read-only. Broadcast digital video systems use obfuscated encryption methods and will only be accessible to studio productions.

    It's in Hollywood's best interest to keep recording and distribution technologies out of the hands of independent artists. Using the cry of "piracy!" as a distraction, they are trying to pass laws that will basically make it illegal to use high-quality video equipment outside of the studio system. This way the MPAA companies will maintain their control over what films get made, resulting in fewer choices and higher prices (the inevitable consequences of a successful monopoly).

    Incidentally, in my own production work I've already been hindered by the media industry's efforts. On two occasions I've had to perform a digital->analog->digital dub to record copy-protected music, *the rights for which I had legally paid for*... Also, I've been forced to reverse-engineer a high-definition video transmission format, because no such equipment is available to those without a studio-level budget.

    1. Re:Hindering independent filmmakers by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      that's the stupidest comment I've ever read. In EVERY way it's now FAR easier to shoot and distribute your own productions and with INFINTELY better quality tha was possible 10 years ago. Editing decks? You don't edit with DECKS these days. HDCAM? Apointless format if ever there was one, and a great many commercial producers neither can or want to afford it. You are an absolute fool - if you were that interested in making TV you'd get a job in... TV!

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
  6. Effect of Piracy by chill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just to point out, as the article details, a DIGITAL bootleg of Spiderman was out on the Net the day before it hit the theater. The result? The theatrical release STILL was the largest grossing opening day (and weekend) ever. Its second weekend was the largest second weekend for a movie ever. Its third weekend (this weekend) is sitting at $46 million which is, surprise, the largest third weekend ever.

    Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones.

    Ditto. Movie out in digital piracy a week before opening, and it still makes obscene amounts of money ($86 million this weekend and $110+ million so far).

    Wanna check on the sales of Star Wars I: Phantom Menace when released on VHS/DVD? One of the best sellers; ditto for The Matrix -- both of which were floating the web in DivX format before they hit the theaters, much less DVD/VHS.

    The last 4 years (1998-2001) are the best on record for revenue generated and attendence at theaters. DVD/VHS sales are thru the roof.

    In the "perfect" world, where movies are uncopiable and you have to see it at the theater and/or purchase a legitimate copy, the industry would see only a paltry rise in revenue compared to today -- not the $3 Billion touted by Mr. Valenti.

    Most people who get rips would either do without altogether, or wait until the DVD/VHS that THEY WERE GOING TO PURCHASE ANYWAY became available.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  7. Because that would be "linking"... by mkcmkc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ...which the courts have ruled (in the 2600 case) is illegal. :-P

    Mike

    --
    "Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
  8. Heh heh. by DarkZero · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think the funniest part of this whole "losses from piracy" thing is that newspapers around the country run a story about piracy whenever a big movie is bootlegged before its release and then go on to mention the "threat" that these bootlegs pose to the box office revenues of the movie... but they never do follow-ups saying, "Oh, I guess not" whenever that massively marketed movie breaks a dozen box office records in a single day.

    Gee, could these big corporate newspapers be writing in the favor of their even bigger corporate owners? ;)

  9. Re:The real cost of swapping movies by Disevidence · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No it isn't, its just that Telstra (my broadband carrier) sucks ass.

    You see, in Australia, there are two companies that give cable. Telstra and Optus. Telstra is a 51% owned government company, and while it may have good telephone service, its cable service is expensive, gets knocked out with regularity, and it has special software that doesn't run on Linux. Optus is waaay better, especially since there is an option for the cap to be X times what the average user uses. Excellent stuff.

    (For all Telstra Broadband Cable users, use BPA Login, a linux friendly, easier and more extensive configuration client)

    Back to the point. I certainly wouldn't waste my time downloading a crappy movie (on my 15'), one which i can see with more enjoyment in front of a nice big tv, with good sound and clear picture.

    Besides, I would find it strange sitting with a bunch of friends watching a movie on the PC, or for the few with GF's, how the hell are you mean to curl up with her if your infront of a computer???

    Yet these MPAA and RIAA just want to keep enforcing more "protection", make us jump through more hoops, and do not give people the benefit of choice. I make sure i buy all my cd's, DVD second hand etc, and you should too. Its cheaper, anyway.

    DVD is an excellent idea for storage and lots of files on the one medium, but due to the MPAA and RIAA's selfishness and oversight, and the corrupt american system (I am not american, Im an Aussie, but we stupidly adopt most american things about 6 months after),the high-tech, convienent uses for DVD is going down the drain.

    If that law goes through (and then, undoubtedly, come here), its illegal for me to download Mandrake and burn it onto CD so I can do a install, and have the CD's there for booting or use on other computers. Quite frankly, its gh3y. So much for the tech revolution. More like the tech devolution.

    --
    Think nothing is impossible? Try slamming a revolving door.
  10. Resistance to change by theolein · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even if one were to agree that internet piracy is decreasing the revenue of the RIAA and MPAA, even if Microsoft (yes, they are doing a similar scheme with their new licences) were actually right about the dangers (to microsoft) of OSS, in my opinion it boils down to a simple problem: Resitance to change.

    Why are they resisting the change? Because of revenue. All the above organisation's profits are dropping for various reasons and they are trying to stem the loss with either restrictive laws or restrictive licences. As I posted in another topic, this only changes the response to the laws and licences, but does not stop the actual process itself. Trying to exert control, by American companies, of personal devices and media, in an effort to stop the growing digitalisation of society will only result in even more resistance by consumers and the general move of innovation away from the US and bitter infighting amongst the industry. Trying to outlaw devices such as the general purpose PC, will drive parts of an entire industry, into insolvency (Software and tool developers above all) and will make the US an unpopular place to do business in and shift the impetus of media away from there.

    I'm not sure but I think that whichever way they go, they will have to face restructuring in the long term and this means losses. There are so many examples that one could fill pages with them- The steel industry trying to stop change with protectionism (only resulting in retaliation from overseas traders), The car industry trying to stop unionisation with violence and anti-communist propaganda (didn't win there either), the English monarchy trying to stop the US from gaining independance, AT&T trying to hold onto it's monopoly in the communication business. - In the long run it mostly backfires. Musicians who earn next to nothing from the RIAA can and will use these restricive laws to further their own poularity by speaking out against it. Companies moving to OSS because it's cheaper and less controlled. Developers not making products for sale or use in the US due to the restrictions there.

    I think, in the long run, laws such as these, are immensly damaging to the very organisations trying to enforce them now, because your average person, who doesn't pirate, will get ticked off that he has to pay more for a DVD or CD (or did you think that they were going to implement all these copy restrictions for free?), the same guy will get ticked off that he has no access to independant media, that everything he does on his non-general purpose computing device is watched and controlled by someone. Programmers in the US will be the laughing stock of the world if they can only code within a strictly defined set of parameters that entails very little freedom.

    I'm not a fan of Science Fiction analogies but "Flow my tears the policeman said" by Philip K Dick is good reading for the case that these restrictions become law.(Especially the epilog)

  11. Re:The real "digital" threat by ninewands · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Quoth the poster ---

    <QUOTE>
    The media industry now is essentially rabidly trying to destroy non-commercial media, as a threat to their profits.

    The attitudes the RIAA shows towards independent labels and bands are really the opinions the media industry has about all amateurs, if we start amusing ourselves, we won't need them. This is why content creating is in danger from SSCA/CBDTPA. They want us to be locked into them with no other choice.

    </QUOTE>

    After all the ranting I have seen on /., somebody has FINALLY stated that which SHOULD have been obvious. The whole SSSCA/CBDTPA uproar in Washington has LITTLE, if anything, to do about you and me downloading "mp3z" or "|\/|0\/i3z" over the internet. It's all about the fact that the means of content production and distribution have gotten inexpensive enough that the CREATORS of the content are no longer beholden to the publishers of content.

    The "pirates" that scare the bejesus out of the MPAA and the RIAA aren't the "CD-rippers". They are the indie artists who can afford to purchase mixers, etc. and record and digitally encode their own music and distribute it LEGITIMATELY over the 'net without Sony, Time-Warner, MCA, Disney and the rest of the "usual gang of suspects" getting THEIR cut.

    It's not about copying, it's about CONTROL. It's about the survival of an outmoded business model that has left many of the original artists of rock dependent on charity in their old age. It's all about preserving the KNOWN historical rip-off (of the artists by the labels) by preventing a future speculative one.

    It's all about the fact that digital camcorders and digital audio recording is on the verge of making the studios and labels and their 18 layers of middlemen and IP lawyers as obsolete and dead as the dinosaurs.

  12. Re:Who are the dinosaurs--the computer industry by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I believe I speek for everyone when I say: shut up and get off your damn soapbox. The computer industry has increased computing power by a factor of two almost every year. Windows XP, Mac OS X, Linux, and other modern operating systems have made system crashes extremely rare. IRQs are no longer a problem thanks to things like USB and IEEE 1394. There are plenty of computer resellers: Dell, HP (Pavilions are #1 in retail), Gateway, eMachines, and many other smaller companies manufacture and sell computers. PCs are more compatible than ever. I have different products from different companies with an OS that was developed 2 years after the computer was made and a printer that is six years old and and two hard drives from different manufacturers at different rotational speeds with software from at least twenty different companies as well as software which I have developed as well as an internet connection that runs over a cable line that lets my computer talk to computers running different hardware, different operating systems, and different software. And guess what? Everything works just fine.

    So what does all of this have to do with the price of eggs?

    The computer industry has produced faster, better machines at lower prices every year. Software has become easier to use and more reliable every year. A single network with most of the computers on the planet has emerged. Through open standards, computers of all types can communicate with each other. Hardware and software works on whatever type of system you have. Retailers and manufacturers, large and small, have been putting together standardized, low-cost components to make computers.

    On the other hand, the motion picture industry has been giving us mostly rehashes of tired old stories (with a few exceptions), usually filmed and distribued to theathers on 50+ year old technology.

    So who's the dinosaur?

  13. Enough lawyering by serutan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This article, while furnishing some interesting info about the numbers, was a sickeningly typical lawyer nitpick. Instead of attacking verbiage with better verbiage, I wish these legal geniuses would address the real issue, which is whether or not copyright enforcement benefits the general public to an extent that justifies taking away other things.

    America has always been big on law enforcement, but there have traditionally been limits, like search and seizure laws and rules of evidence. The rights-ownership industry (we're not talking about creative artists here) appears to think that protecting IP should become the central goal of law in America. Privacy doesn't matter -- it could be used to hide infringement. Innovation doesn't matter -- it could be used to defeat protection. Opensource doesn't matter -- it's an evil socialist plot anyway. Everybody's behavior must be restricted so as to guarantee that people like Jamie "skipping commercials is theft" Kellner get a nickel every time anybody reads, views or hears anything other than their own bodily functions.

    We ought to do follow the advice put forth in some recent article posted here (can't remember the freakin one) that advocated focusing political contributions to defeat legislators who act as toadies to the entertainment industry. Every time a new tendril appears, cut it off. Blacklist the entertainment industry and see how they like it. Does anybody know who Hollings' opponent is going to be in the next election? Send him or her money. Send letters to every other senator notifying them that you are doing this and why you are doing it.

    American politics tends to be a series of one-issue campaigns. Our lawmakers understand that principle very well. Make the defeat of the copyright industry your one issue and let them know it.