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Echelon Architect Interviewed

Posted by Hemos on from the talking-with-the-man dept.

ploog writes "Echelon has been surrounded by controversy since rumors of it first popped up on the net. The US Government has never admitted to it, although various other governments have. Now, a lead architect for Echelon and its "big brother," Echelon II, has been discovered and interviewed. This is fascinating stuff. He is able to give some details about how Echelon works, although he doesn't come divulge everything, for obvious reasons. Trying to deny Echelon just got that much harder. Link found via Megarad.com."

15 of 264 comments (clear)

  1. Yeah, right by --daz-- · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The US government is trying to deny it and hide its existance, and then someone "suddenly" finds the architect and he starts freely talking about it? I doubt it.

  2. I wonder... by CaffeineAddict2001 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why arn't senators\congressmen worried about being blackmailed by this thing?
    What if there was a watergate-esque break in to echelon?

    1. Re:I wonder... by ajs · · Score: 5, Interesting

      A good point.

      Realistically, Echelon likely had no indications of what was going to occur (after all, Echelon is a fairly well known tool of the US government, so if you're going to attack us you don't use cell phones and faxes to coordinate it... duh).

      However, as an accedemic question the disposition of such information would be interesting and troubling. The parallels to WWII England are rather obvious, but let's stay with the current example. Let's say that the NSA got wind of a an attempt like 9/11. Well, they'd probably only have some details, so let's say that they knew there would be a hijacking attempt during September and it might involve using the hijacked planes as weapons.

      Clearly your first urge is to stop this terrible thing, but that would come at great cost... even if you see the planes deviating from their courses and heading toward Manhatten and D.C., simply shooting them down is a pretty big indicator that you knew exactly what was going to happen, which in turn lets your enemy (in what is sure to be a coming retaliatory strike) know that there is a leak in their organization... critical data indeed!

      You could take action sooner and let airports know or station more guards at airports, but again it's a clear signal of what you know.

      This is the scary, messy part of intellegence gathering. You have to be willing, going into the game, to accept that short-term knowledge that you gather may not be usable, even when failing to use it may mean you never sleep well again.

      In World War II, there was a city that was bombed in England by the Germans. Churchill knew, and did nothing in order to preserve the secret that the allies had broken Enigma. In the end, this lead to (or at least contributed mightily to) the defeat of the Germans. If, say, Bush knew about what was going to happen in Manhatten... I don't think the information would have been used directly. If the NSA knew and didn't tell Bush, that's another story entirely, and I would classify that as treason pure and simple. A decision of that magnitude must be made by an elected official, not a political appointee.

  3. iJET Services for the Plebes by floppy+ears · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The company that this guy works for -- iJET -- is fairly interesting. I'm surprised to see that they have a service for regular travelers. For $8 per day (1 week minimum), you get an international cell phone or satellite phone, as well as text alerts "of any major developments that may impact your trip, such as civil unrest, labor strikes, severe weather, disease outbreaks or transportation delays." The info comes from the iJET database that is somehow similar to Echelon.

    The service is called WorldLink. It sounds like a pretty good service to me, especially if you don't already have a cell phone that works internationally. For more info, this is the product web site.

    --

    "If I could live to be several hundred
    I could take a walk and really wander, really wonder."
  4. Echelon and Issues of Trust by Alien54 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Looking back over time, it is interesting to look at the history of electronic intelligence and survellience.

    I seem to remember that when the US was the only one with surveillance satellites, countries like Ruissia got very very nervous and upset about it, claiming the violation of airspace, etc.

    With the advent of the first Russian spy satellites, things got a lot easier. and dealing with the Russians was easier, because they could verify things with their own spy satellites. They didn't have to take the US word on things.

    You didn't have a situation of someone saying "Trust Us"

    I wonder if a similar situation will exist with other forms of surverlliance as they develop. Countries tend to get nervous when there are a lot of secrets involved, especially their own. While countries probably can justify secrets, I imagine that life will be easier when there is some sort of parity.

    This would be especially interesting in seeing about the average citizen getting some parity with his/her/its government.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  5. Re:nothing new..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Well, see...most people have been conditioned to brush anything like this aside as a "conspiracy theory" or "urban legend".

    I swear, if I hear another sheep bring one of those two phrases up in a conversation again, I'll club him like a baby seal...

    There's nothing like waking people up to the world around them, just to have some walmart-shopping, sports-uberfan butt in with "nah, you're just one of those 'black helicopter' nutbars", and drive people back into their shell...
    (BTW, there have been thousands of 'black helicopter' operations run across the US and other countries, filmed and shown on local and national news shows...but these morons still don't 'believe' in them?!?!?)

    As I said to someone the other day, I don't know who was the original quoter:
    "You're ignorance doesn't make me a crackpot"

  6. Echelon admitted by U.S. Senator by dmccarty · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I'm kicking myself for not having written down the name of the station, the time and the Senator being interviewed, but I'll post from what I do remember.

    The evening of Sept. 11 I was watching the news--ABC, probably--and some senator from such and such intelligence committee was on for a few minutes. The anchor was asking him about the plane crash in Pennsylvania, which we all knew very little about at the time.

    The anchor said, "There are reports that some phone calls were made on mobile phones from the airplane shortly before it went down. Do you have any more information about this?"

    Senator XYZ [matter-of-factly]: "Well there were several calls made and I can't comment on that right now, but we should't have any problem getting the recordings on those."

    The anchor moved on to the next question without realizing the impact of what had just been said. But if that wasn't an admission of clandestine listening of routine telephone traffic in the U.S., I don't know what is.

    --
    Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
  7. after re-reading.... by flirzan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Okay. In short, we have transferred everything I did for the NSA and other services to a private company that then sells intelligence to businesspersons.

    I'm sorry, but I don't think you'd be transferring ANYTHING you did *for* the NSA...you might take something you did for the NSA and implement a similar solution, but you're not just going to grab a project and run with it.

    We get information on everything from local diseases, outbreaks of malaria epidemics and local unrest to strikes, the weather and traffic conditions. Our customers are large multinational companies like Prudential and Texas Instruments. We also work for institutions like the World Bank and the IMF."

    And you need former KGB, NSA, etc agents to check the weather...?

    This whole interview strikes me as a little off. Something's not right in Denamrk, here folks.

    --
    Twinkies sure taste good for something that is 68% air.
  8. More information available in "Body of Secrets" by u2zoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A book by James Bamford called "Body of Secrets" (booksamillon.com) contains tons of info on Echelon... yep they are spying on us and everyone else and they put into one large database which has the NSA's own version of Google ontop. Also governements around the world have access to this database - Bamford shows an example of how someone got blacklisted in various countries due to humor error. I'm not saying the whole deal is a bad or good thing... not until I get my hands on it. *grin*

    Read the book... it is awesome.. you'll never look at our government's security system the same way again - we have a powerful system. He covers the whole thing from the start in World War II till now. Has several interesting bits in there - one on the U.S.S. Liberty (background info) incident which is fascinating really - Israel really screwed us over on that one.

  9. EU Report on Echelon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting


    Denying the existence of Echelon has been almost impossible since the European Union investigated the matter a few years ago. The investigation was carried out because it was believed that the US government might have been using Echelon to pass commercial sensitive information to US businesses to give them an advance over European competitors.

    This is the most balances and best inform study of Echelon that is in the public domain. It can be found at:

    http://www.europarl.eu.int/tempcom/echelon/pdf/p re chelon_en.pdf

  10. Re:shocked, shocked! by daniel_howell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    OK, try looking at it from the other side of the Atlantic.

    A consortium of countries, led by the USA, is spying on (among others) European governments and comapnies. It is doing this using equipment based in (among other places) the UK. It is denying doing this.

    So the US government is in cahoots with part of the European Union to spy on another part of the EU. There are also suggestions that the results of this spying are used for commercial benefit as well as national security.

    Try imagining it was Canada and Texas spying on the rest of the USA, and using the results to compete against US companies and see if that changes the way you feel about it...

  11. Re:Now The Question Is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Democrats are the ones in favor of big powerful governments.

    So?

    I'd rather have the big powerful government than the big powerful corporations running the country.

    Don't let the "government evil - business good" brainswashing get to you. I for one hope that some day we'll adopt the European model.

    Yeah, maybe it will cost us in productivity but at least the wealth will be more evenly divided.

  12. Echelon by surfcow · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wrote to my congressmen about Echelon, only one replied. He said that he was on a congressional committee charged with investigating Echelon which repeatedly questioned the military and has repeatedly been stonewalled, publically told that it does not exist. He was genuinely pissed about it. This is positive proof that parts of the military are no longer responsive to government. (I wonder what happens when all of it is unresponsive?)

    The European Parliment is also upset about Echelon. Germany has strong evidence that german Echelon stations have been used for industrial espionage. I recall that Japan was upset when it was learned that their private calls between negotiators were being spied on during high-level trade-talks.

    I have no doubt that the information yeilded from the system has been used for good purposes, like preventing terrorist attacks and such. It ihas also been misused. It is my opinion that you can not use fascist tactics in defense of democracy.

    A good source of information on Echelon is the ACLU: http://www.aclu.org/echelonwatch/faq.html The ACLU even have a simple way to send your congressmen a fax about it. http://www.aclu.org/action/echelon107.html

    Let them know. Use your vote or you may lose it.

    =brian (a coward, but not an anonymous coward)

  13. Re:if you believe that by guttentag · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I agree the story seems pretty sketchy... it has the pretentious tone of a 15-year-old's tale of his latest StarCraft conquest mixed with the ambiguity of fiction written for people who want to believe. And no, it doesn't tell us anything new.

    On the other hand, The New York Times seems to confirm McIndoe knows something about Echelon (though it doesn't call him the architect): "...Mr. McIndoe, who previously helped develop the National Security Agency's Echelon II program and also founded a company that develops computer intelligence-gathering systems." That seems to me like a pretty major claim (in light of the insistence that Echelon doesn't exist) and the reporter should qualify the source of his info, but he doesn't.

    The Washington Post ran one of its standard "check out this company" profiles on iJet, though it makes no mention of Echelon or McIndoe's intelligence background. It's still an interesting read.

  14. Mr McIndoe by Popocatepetl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It is not like the interview revealed anything. Absolutely nothing of importance was mentioned that you can not find elsewhere. The thing is, I think this interview is real.

    This doesn't prove the case, but Bruce McIndoe is mentioned on the net. Here is his official biographical blurb on IJet's web site: . Everything there corroborates the interview. His bio hypes him up, but that doesn't mean it is totally false.

    I just don't understand why everyone is so skeptical about this interview. It wasn't even particularly interesting. I would understand the cynicism if Mr McIndoe had actually said something of interest, but since he said exactly the things (nothing juicy or outrageous or even anything more than mildly interesting) I would expect someone to say who is involved in such projects, I don't have any reason to doubt the credibility of the article.