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Apple Creating iBrowser on Mozilla Code?
louismg writes "The Register is claiming there may be a browser mutiny in Cupertino. The Mozilla-based Chimera browser was featured by many speakers during this month's WWDC, which may constitute a backhand endorsement, and could be used as a weapon in the 'negotiations' with Bill Gates and Co. over IE ..." Chimera is beginning to turn into a usable browser, favored by many Mac OS X users. Who knows? Update: 05/28 15:33 GMT by P : Chimera 0.2.8 was released today.
I would like it if Apple produced something like this. All the software they produce is easy to use and works very good. I wouldn't mind an alternative to IE. I don't mind IE, but alternatives and competition are always good....right?
its time for a cocoa-ized version of cyberdog
A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without bricks tied to its head
F.I.E.
'"forget" Internet Explorer'
with a red lizzard on the sleve.
I think perhaps the title of this article is a bit of sensationalism. There is no general knowledge nor mention in the article that Apple is making any browser whatsoever. The only "news" that the article mentions is that Apple _appeared_ to push Chimera in the WWDC, although it is a brand new application in very early developmental stages.
Yes, there has been recent speculation that Apple might move to a different "default" browser, now that the agreement with Microsoft is coming to an end. But it's been little more than people wondering... no real evidence.
I'd say it may very well happen, and the article brings up some good reasons why it might.
But to imply not only that this is happening, but Apple is creating it or directly involved is misleading.
mark
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. -- Carl Sagan
chimera also chimaera Pronunciation Key(k-mîr, k-)
n.
1.
a. An organism, organ, or part consisting of two or more tissues of different genetic composition, produced as a result of organ transplant, grafting, or genetic engineering.
b. A substance, such as an antibody, created from the proteins or genes or two different species.
2. An individual who has received a transplant of genetically and immunologically different tissue.
3. A fanciful mental illusion or fabrication
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
There are much wider implications involved rather than a simple browser here - IE means a lot psychologically to Microsoft, it's a product that it fought very hard (and very dirty) to have succeed against Netscape, and also to some extent the DoJ, and Microsoft is currently loving the fact it's the de facto browser shipping with both of the two most popular desktop operating systems on Earth (Mac OS & Windows). For Apple to devote time and money towards developing a competing browser is going to be seen as a rather aggressive move by Apple, and with the 1997 MS/Apple deal timed out now, Apple has to be cautious to maintain the support of MS as an ISV (take Office away from Apple and it's in trouble). But on the other hand, Apple is in an extremely strong position, it has 4.5 billion USD in the bank, it has award winning products that the world seems to be fawning over, it's FINALLY got itself an ultra modern OS, it's diverging at both extremes of the industry (iPod and XServe), and despite the tech slump with a combined worldwide economic slowdown, the company is amazingly still turning a healthy profit. The knowledge of this newfound stability is likely to fuel Job's fire for radicalism that has in the past produced both fantastically innovative products, and also almost ruined the company - what will it do this time? Who knows, but all the signs point to Apple getting back up for round two vs MS - starting with the little tremors such as the page dedicated to educating Windows users as to the superiority of Mac OSX that went live on the Apple site a couple of months ago, and recently Job's commented during an interview with the BBC on doubling Apple's marketshare in very positive terms. It seems the future is anything but certain, and only a fool would resign Apple to it's current position in the industry - if Apple does have new browser plans underway, you can be sure that it's part of a much larger move back into the limelight.
This sig has been deprecated.
I for one can't wait for Chimera to be as good as Mozilla RC3.
I know that people say that Mozilla is a failure because it didn't kill IE, and that it's big and bloated, but the good part about Mozilla is it's all open, baby. You want to build your own lean, mean browser? Have at it!
That's the benefit of the Mozilla project. It's a big open pile of browser-related code that will drive projects for the next decade.
Chimera is looking very good and has all the Aqua-ey bits. Ditching Mail, News, Composer, Chatzilla, XUL and the like is sure to make it smaller, faster and easier to maintain.
MS doesn't do a darned thing for Mac's IE. Their Mactopia webpage [link intentionally omitted] says "If you want IE, go load it off your CDs that came with your Mac". As far as I can tell, they limit their support to bugfixes. Seems to me they're not real interested in updating their 'best of class' browser.
I'm going out on a limb and guessing that Chimera will be as good as the current IE in 1Q2003. In the meantime, Apple is cozying up with AOL (iChat, advertisements with Netscape in the dock). The stronger OpenOffice and Chimera are when the deal is made, the better position Apple will be. Apple and MS will figure out their relationship in some backroom. If MS loses IE to an open-source iBrowser, it won't be a big loss for MS, but it will be a big win for Chimera (and by extension Mozilla)
My father is a blogger.
From Hyatt's blog:
Monday, May 27, 2002 Posted 1:12 PM by David Hyatt
Eep. Sometimes I forget that people are actually reading this thing and developing grand conspiracy theories. I especially like the part where I'm referred to as a "long-time Mac nut." Until about 3 months ago, my Mac desktop was a glorified paperweight, Cocoa was something you drank, and Objective-C... well, I would have just blinked and responded with "Objective what?"
Just to set the record straight on this conspiracy theory... all Netscape employees who were hired before AOL took the company over are eligible for a six-week sabbatical after four years of employment. You also have to take the sabbatical within one year of becoming eligible for it, or you have to go through the hassle of filing for an extension. As of July 5, I'll have been working for Netscape/AOLTW for 5 years, so I had to take the sabbatical now. It also seemed like a good time to do so since Mozilla 1.0 is wrapping up (and in very good shape). This sabbatical has absolutely nothing to do with Chimera.
Although an iBrowser would be an interesting development--IE is only one of three third party apps that ships with OS X, and the use of Mozilla in a Beta version of a Mac AOL client gives this some weight, I don't think Hyatt is working on it.
--
$tar -xvf
This would only contribute to the stigma that Apple is starting to pull the usual Microsoft tactics. I don't thinks Steve wants to do that. If you look at all of apple's "i" products, you can see that none of them were created to compete directly with any other specific product, they were unprecidented releases meant to bring usablitity which previously didn't exist and to inspire a greater base of developers to relize the viability of the mac platform. If apple had not made thoes products no one would of. They simply had to take it in their own hands to offer an incredible base level user experience because no one else was helping them. The Browser wars are somewhat different though. Apple see's that their is already a good deal of competition and that by making their own labeled product they will hurt that even more than by including IE as their default browser. If their smart apple will put support into the development of Chimera and will eventually, when it is ready, make it their default browser. I doubt they would persue Mozilla much considering it is so heavy, isn't based on cocca and would be a little confusing for many basic users who have already started using apple's basic mail and address book apps.
David Hyatt, Chimera's principal developer, said that since he was on sabbatical no new builds were in the works until July. However, the demand for more development was so high, and the rumors were so rampant, that he released a new build this morning. See for yourself. David has denied the rumors repeatedly, and I doubt that Apple will take Chimera and rename it iBrowser or (even better) iBrowse. However, I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually became the default browser and shipped with future versions of the OS.
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
This is somewhat off topic, but I gotta say iCab rules. It renders quickly; has a nice, responsive UI; all kinds of customizable filters for javascript, ad banners, etc.; is relatively standards complient; and has a built in syntax checker. No email, newsreader, or composer to bloat the package. I prefer it to OmniWeb. Now let's see if Apple can produce something as flexible.
I for one think it's high time someone componentize Gecko into an InterfaceBuilder Palette. This way anyone can create an app that knows how to render complex HTML/Javascript/CSS/XML etc. It's time to commoditize the view into the web.
tabbed browsing
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
could be used as a weapon in the 'negotiations' with Bill Gates and Co. over IE
I don't think so.
I can just see Steve on the phone with Bill now:
"Bill, we'd like to dissolve our "strategic partnership" that places IE exclusively front and center on the desktops of Mac users and be able to customize our users' experience without being restrained in any way."
"I'm really sorry to hear that, Steve. I had thought that our strategic partnership meant more than that to you. Much more. Beyond placing IE on Mac user's desktops, I thought that Microsoft went the extra mile in putting Office on the Mac. Am I mistaken in valuing this relationship?"
"No, Bill. I think I understand better the great value of our special relationship now that you've made it clear. You've done your part keeping new versions of Office on Mac - we'll hold up our end doing whatever it takes. By the way, do you have another spare $150M to invest in "advanced projects"?"
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I thought it was quite insightful...
Whats the source of your def's?
...for MSIE's product manager saying that OS X is slow when the truth is that table rendering in the Tasman engine is the real problem. Chimera shows that the problem isn't OS X, it's bloated browsers.
Apple is obviously glad the Chimera project exists, and they're probably contributing code to it, but iBrowse is not an obvious conclusion. iSoftware is all about easy-to-use media tools that drive people to the Mac. iMovie, for example, set off a huge boom in personal filmmaking. But everyone already knows how to use a standard web browser.
I like iCab too, my main problem with it is that CSS support just isn't there yet. If not for that, I might even use it full time. I've also had it crash on me a few times in X. That shouldn't happen
"Never separate the life you live from the words you say." - Paul Wellstone
iMac 800 / iBook 800
I think that a lot of rumours may be coming from Apple's work on the new and improved Sherlock. Although Sherlock is quite similar to Watson (correct me if I'm wrong, but Keralia is making use of OS X's built in handling of XML, did anyone really not expect aApple to take advatage of OS X's built in XML, AppleScript, and Services...? If you check out the pictures, video, and decsriptions of the new Sherlock, it is basically a Web Broswer with special interfaces (Channels) for what you are trying to look at on the internet (just as Watson does). With Sherlock's Indexing/Find features moving into The Finder, Sherlock is basically becoming an Internet search & find tool. Instead of going to a browser for movie times, TV times, maps, news, you go to a specialized channel of Shelock, and voila! I thought it was pretty cool how doing a phone number look-up for a listed business or residence could also display a map in another pane. Question is (as anyone who has used Watson will know) if it filters out ads and accesses information from someone else's site and presents it in a new format (1) Aren't the advertisers going to worry about whether or not someone actually saw their banner (2) Aren't the websites going to be a little PO'd about their info being highjacked. Unless of course Apple is going to form agreements with the affected websites (unlike Watson).
i was always under the impression that IE was the default browser by some sort of deal with M$ (that 5 year plan of cooperation). granted that deal is technically over now (or this summer?), but both sides have agreed to keep with the spirit of the agreement. i would think M$ would throw a fit if something else was default.
it is also odd that over the last 5 years Netscape would sometimes install with the OS and sometimes not. it was never default, but it was sometimes there. when i installed 10.0 and 10.1, there was only IE. i do not know if they figured other browsers were not mature enough yet or what, but the IE that shipped with 10.0 was terrible. as general habit i delete all M$ software from my machine after a fresh install. these days in OS X i use Mozilla for browsing 99% of the time, if it fails me i revert to Omniweb or icab (my previous first choices for OS X). i have not downloaded Chimera yet, but i think i will later. so far i have heard really posi things about it (even with the early early releases).
and totally off on a tangent... i really hope AOL dumps IE, i would be psyched to see lazy web site designers to have to revert back to the true standards. i don't know if it is coincidence or what, but in the last few months i have run into more and more websites that do not properly function with any browser i still have on my machine. to hell with the M$ plans to "streamline the internet when everyone uses our software".
I didn't see Chimera at any WWDC sessions... every one I went to that had a web browser in it used IE (though one that didn't featured OmniWeb in IE's usual place in the dock).
Perhaps its time for Apple to sever the MS tie-in .. It could use a Mozilla-based browser and if MS decides to drop Office, it could push some development into staroffice or open office... Beyond those two pieces of software, it doesn't seem like Microsoft brings much to the table for Apple ... My guess is Jobs is getting ready to move beyond Microsoft ... seems like Jobs has world domination on the mind..
I for one hope this is happening, because the browser situation is (IMO) the most disappointing thing about OS X. As a professional Web developer, it drives me crazy, because I love OS X in almost every other way.
I have seven browsers installed on my Titanium, and I basically use one until it pisses me off, and then switch to another. My current favorite is Netscape 7 PR 1, but it pisses me off now and then, too.
OmniWeb is nice, and a cool idea, but these guys are crazy for trying to keep up with HTML/CSS/ECMEScript, and so on, in their own rendering engine. Every once in a while, it'll just hang, and it has problems with complex sites. But, it looks the best.
iCab is the fastest browser I've used, interface-wise, but it suffers from many of the same problems as OmniWeb. In short, it's cute, and is a great browser -- for about three years ago.
Similarly, Opera's Mac OS X effort is cute, but it's essentially a second-rate browser. It seems to display things quickly, but certainly doesn't live up to its claims of being the fastest. Besides, its font display and Java/ECMAScript support leave a whole hell of a lot to be desired.
Then there's IE. I have to use IE when Mozilla botches a download (yeah, happens frequently). IE also has superior printing (which they debuted on the Mac OS 8 version, a couple of years ago). However, it's the slowest at displaying pages; the Tasman engine is basically a piece of garbage, and I don't have the patience to spend my days looking at spinning beach balls.
Finally, we have Mozilla and Netscape 7. Netscape 7, on my system, actually feels more responsive than Mozilla 1. Mozilla 1 is the most unstable browser of any of them; it will crash on occasionm and certain commands, like "load into new tab" will just not work at certain times. The XUL framework, while interesting for other reasons, is just stupid. It makes Moz/NS not behave like a Mac application. It doesn't display OS-standard UI widgets, doesn't properly launch your preferred email program, and so on.
I've been arguing in online forums for months that what Apple needs to do is just take Gecko and put it in a Cocoa framework. That's what Chimera is. Chimera is awfully promising, but for me, it's not really usable yet; lacks way too many features. Still, I have it on my machine as demo-ware, and check it out every so often. If Apple is doing either of: (1) expand on Chimera and make it feature complete; or (2) wrapping Gecko in a Cocoa framework themselves, then it makes me very, very happy. I'd like to see a solid browser supported on the level of iTunes et al.
gameDB
Has anyone noticed that bash is suspiciously absent from the default install of OS X?
/src directory is not really something you'd expect to find in a consumer OS. Maybe they could mirror it online as a download, but that's been questioned before, too.
The reason-- and this is the official line-- is that bash is GPL.
Guess what? So's Chimera.
As much as Slashdot is a GPL-fest, it remains to be seen what companies can and can't do with GPL'd software. And yes, that includes whether they can ship it or not.
Another issue is that they'd have to ship the code. A
So for now Apple has decided to err on the side of safety and not ship. I doubt that they will change their ways for a browser.
I think what they're trying to say isn't "We can use this browser, so be scared Microsoft" but more "We have access to a vast amount of open-source code that compiles on our OS-- and looks damn nice-- with minimal development effort." And I support the latter more than the former.
- The Amazina Llama
I hate to say this, but the Register seems to have a real problem getting very much straight when it comes to OSX. They flamed it away for ages, rightly so, in the 10.0 era as being slow and buggy, but never bothered to actually check it later when the 10.1 series rolled around and give it some plus points. Likewise this article misses the boat completely - Explorer on OSX *does* have a Scrapbook and Bookmark managment. The clowns at the register seem simply not to have been able to move the mouse to the left part of the window.
The Chimera story is amazing not only for the fact that it is *the* killer browser on OSX (or at least will be at 1.0 or sooner), lightweight, fullfeatured, standards compliant, and responsive. What is the most amazing thing about Chimera is that it has moved so fast. I think most of us will agree that we've never seen a product move ahead so quickly in the opensource, or closed source for that matter, world. And this is the work on just three or four people? I would *not* at all be surprised to learn that Apple has been lending a helping hand behind the scenes, given that the core code is not in the CVS tree and only Dave Hyatt sees it. The reasons for this would be obvious, but not those that the Register is trotting out. Apple has clearly no intention of bargaining with MS over something like a browser these days. MS has not advanced IE in terms of performance in over a year, apart from the occaisional bug fix, and Apple needs a browser that is native, looks good, is responsive and standards compliant and above all modern. IE is dying on the Mac OmniWeb looks good, but has terrible standards compliance and a development pace that makes your average snail seem like an F-15. Mozilla and Netscape are finally starting to work well on OSX but they are extremely bloated and contain far too many features that have no value whatsoever on OSX. OSX already has a simple but good native mail client and 10.2 Jaguar will also have integrated chatting. Pull those things from Mozilla, add a native interface and what do you get? - Chimera. I, personally am willing to bet money that it will be the future of web browsing on the OSX platform.
I think the reviewers at the Register simply get confused and a little bit lost when something positive happens in the Apple world and don't know how to react, given as they are, to useing cynicism as a normal manner of conversation. (Or is it just a steady diet of Fish 'n Chips with too much vinegar?)
which would change the nature of your post a bit.
I really hope this happens. OS X lacks a good web browser at the moment. IE is slow and unreliable. OmniWeb is slow, and its standards compliance leaves much to be desired. Mozilla's good, but noticably slower than its OS 9 equivilant, and just doesn't feel like a Mac application. Chimera is probably the best of the OS X browsers, but is incomplete. It's my browser of choice, however, and its development is progessing very quickly. On the other hand, something OS X really needs is a good, native, and stand-alone Usenet client.
Could this just be a replacement for the internal web browser that Apple uses for displaying help, results in Sherlock etc.
It seems like a silly ploy to create another browser when MacOSX seems to have more than enough (IE, OmniWeb, Chimera, Netscape, Mozilla, Opera, iCab). Which is not surprising seeming the original browser was developed on NeXT.
However the internal HTML renderer (I wouldn't call it a browser) is pretty basic. I would not see it being to hard for them to replace there internal rendering system with Mozilla code. That way you get a top class compliant browser and if you put appriorate wrappers around it you should be able to upgrade it in future along with the main Mozilla releases.
Go out and get sailing!
The Rogister argues that one of the reasons IE on Mac is better than IE on Windows is because it has a scrapbook.
Internet Explorer itself, which comfortably leads the pack and can boast a host of features (such as the Scrapbook, bookmark management, auctions) not shared by the Windows version. So from a consumer point of view, a Macintosh computer isn't really lacking a browser with weight.....
You're in such a rush to bash the "confused" "clowns" at The REg you can't read the article, which was interesting and sceptical.
Hope you feel better after getting that rant off your chest, man.
Chimera has still a way to go before it is a complete as Mozilla (last time I used it I could save images or download things, not sure abot JavaScript support).
The best about Chimera is really faster that Mozilla at displaying web pages on Mac OS X.
The program also loads faster.
... why not start one hypothesizing a secret Apple Aquafication of Open Office? That would have a much greater impact that replacing IE with Chimera.
IF there is anything at all to an Apple push to replace IE, it's probably only a means to get Microsoft to lighten up on its push to replace Quicktime with WiMP.
But I like the idea of an Aqua front end on Open Office, something that looks as good as Microsoft Office X, has full document support, and is free. Now THAT's a rumor.
There! Consider it done.
The correct thing to do is support a standard. That is what they are for.
...and Emacs ships with OS X.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.