Funding for Non-Traditional Comp. Sci Students?

chromatic asks: "I've been working with promising prospective programmers for a while. They're interested in college, but as non-traditional students with young families, the financial burdens are overwhelming. We're aware of FAFSA, financial aid officers, and standard grants (all of which have a bias toward traditional students). What other resources (grants, work study programs, low interest loans) should we explore?"

Comments

Clarification

[avalys]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a non-traditional student?

Re:Clarification

[Mad Marlin]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a non-traditional student?

Generally anybody over 25 or married or not going full-time©

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

In my case: caucasian male, zero children, shitty job, and age > 20's

College

[spacecowboy420]

As a non-trad (read "old") student, I made it by with a few things:

1. GIBILL which ran out about halfway through(not available for everyone, but veterans have additional funding available)

2. Get a job, like everyone else, except you can't afford to blow off class 'cause it ain't your mama's money.

I had a full time job while working on my Bachelors, now I am in grad school...with, you guessed it, a full time job...except now my employer offers tuition reimbursement :)

Re:College

[MoneyT]

On the whole job thing, the otherthing that could be attempted is to go to their current employer and ask them to fund their college tuition in exchange for a few years of guarenteed work.

non traditional student?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need some non traditional accounting.

Try Andersen.

Kind of a shot in the dark, but...

[starX]

A comp sci professor of mine tells me that there is some federally funded program for putting people through college in exchange for a gaurentee of service. Basically, Uncle Sam will pay for your programming/security training, if you sign a contract saying you'll work for Uncle Sam for a few years after you graduate. As to what this program is called, or how to apply... I have no idea whatsoever, but if you do some digging, you might turn it up (presuming that it actually exists).

One thing I can suggest is to get a computer-realted government job. A friend of mine worked for the state, and they footed the bill for him to get "computer training" at a local college. It didn't exactly amount to a degree, but it basically gives him a minor in CS. That may be a more fruitful search.

Good luck.

Biased towards traditional students?

[Anonynnous Coward]

(all of which have a bias toward traditional students)

I can't speak to the particular people you spoke with at your particular institution, but I can tell that the Federal need analysis formula:

o in no way takes into account whether you are going full or part-time to school (though you must be at least half-time to receive federal aid)

o uses age to determine whether parents should contribute to the cost of education for unmarried, non-veteran, non-orphan/ward of the court students--this actually benefits older students, as no parent contribution decreases the amount a student is expected to provide on his own

o uses age to determine an "asset protection allowance"--meaning that the older you are, the more money the government says you, the student, can hang on to without being expected to contribute a percentage of it to your education, again, benefiting the student, whom the governemt assumes is saving for retirement as he ages

o does not take into account whether you attend a two-year, four-year, technical, trade, proprietary, or hairstyling school.

Here's federal financial aid in a nutshell. Your school determines your cost of attendance (COA) which includes tuition, fees, books, and living expenses (at your school's discrection). Your FAFSA determines how much you and/or your parents are expected to contribute out of pocket before federal loans and grants (unfortunately, the bulk of federal aid is in the form of loans--fortunately, those are at around 4% at the moment). That number is called your estimated family contribution. The difference between that cost of attendance and your contribution is referred to as "need." So need = COA - EFC. A school's financial aid office may meet that need with federal loans or grants, (and/or with its own money in the form of tuition waivers or scholarships; or loans from banks that aren't part of the federal programs, but those aren't federal).

The EFC formula's not top secret, you can look at it in detail here. You also have access to every piece of information the federal government publishes for aid officers, as a citizen. There's detail, but none of this should be beyond the reasoning of someone reading/posting to Slashdot.

Being somewhat familiar with it, I fail to see how you can say the federal financial aid system favors the traditional student. If the financial aid office where you start out seems to not care about you, perhaps you should find a school that suits your academic needs and has one that does.

One other good sources of information about financial and and scholarships are finaid.org. And whatever you do DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PAY ANYONE A FEE TO FILL OUT A FAFSA. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PAY TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR A SCHOLARSHIP. I cannot emphasize that enough.

Re:Biased towards traditional students?

[gartogg]

a) student loans are at 5+%, and is a miserable deal compared to any real discount, which is what the government used to offer. (between 3-4%, while inflation was closer to 5% back several years ago)

b)you may need to pay to be eligible for financial aid (see the college board's extortion sheet, the CSS/Profile)

c) you can always go to a state school in a state like Georgia, where a B average will get you free tuition. This is the best plan for anyone who can put off college until they establish residency (1 year, i think)

Re:Biased towards traditional students?

[larry bagina]

a) The stafford student loans may be interest defferred - interest doesn't start acuumulating until 6 months after you graduate/get kicked out. It doesn't take Kreskin to realize that's a good deal

b) I think I had to pay a 2-5% originating fee on one of my loans or grants. Extortion, maybe, but better than paying out of my own pocket.

State schools try very hard to prevent freeloading out-of-staters from establishing residency. From people I've talked to, for "non-traditional" students, they generally don't check very deep.

Re:Biased towards traditional students?

[Anonynnous Coward]

a) student loans are at 5+%, and is a miserable deal compared to any real discount, which is what the government used to offer. (between 3-4%, while inflation was closer to 5% back several years ago)

In-school rates for FFEL loans are between 4 and 5% now. They go down more July 1. Thought the rates are variable up to 8.25%, they can be locked in through consolidation, for now.

b) you may need to pay to be eligible for financial aid (see the college board's extortion sheet, the CSS/Profile)

The Profile's a special case. That's why I said FAFSA :). But still, you shouldn't pay anyone to fill out even the CSS/Profile. I would ask for help from the Financial Aid office where I intended to go to school if I had trouble. Of course, in the private school realm where the Profile dominates, students/parents sometimes feel like they are in an adversarial relationship with the financial aid office, and will hire consultants to help "stage" assets and income to protect them from institutional need analysis. You can guess how I feel about the ethics of that, but people trying to shave $10,000/year off $40,000 private school tuition for Muffy and Biff know what they're paying for. The people I hate hearing about are those who have paid anywhere from $75-$1,000 to have these forms filled out for them, often with bogus promises of "guaranteed financial aid," that usually amounts to freshman loan eligibility. Very sleazy industry taking advantage of very vulnerable parents, particularly those of first-generation college kids.

c) you can always go to a state school in a state like Georgia, where a B average will get you free tuition. This is the best plan for anyone who can put off college until they establish residency (1 year, i think)

That's an awesome plan. Do you mean a high school B average? If so, does a B average in another state's high school cut it for Hope (?) after you establish residency?

Re:Biased towards traditional students?

[gartogg]

Free with a B average in high school, and I don't know about whether a B average in another state's HS system would count, but after the 1st 30 hours, if you have a B, you get refunded for those credits even with a less than 3.0 GPA from HS.

It's an incredible deal.

Re:Biased towards traditional students?

[hether]

I can tell you how it is biased and fails the non traditional student. If you are a student who is still really young (under 21) but doesn't live at home, and aren't married (living with someone doesn't count), the parent is still fully expected to pay. Therein lies the problem.

For my first two or three years of college, I was uneligible for grants and other forms of aid because I was forced to take my parents income into consideration. When reporting on the FAFSA and other forms, if you were listed on your parents taxes in the last three years as a dependant, you must report their income. My parents did not help me pay for my college - yet the system assumes that they will just because of my age. Thus their higher incomes made me ineligible for most financing.

Personally I was forced to work full time while attending school just to be able to afford to go to community college. A university would have been completely unaffordable. If I would have had kids, this would likely have been an impossible task.

And yes, I was considered a non-traditional student because of the fact that I didn't live in the dorms and worked. My advisor had the nerve to suggest several times that students with full loads were strongly encouraged to work 20 hours a week or less.

I wish these people good luck with their financial aid quest.

Re:Biased towards traditional students?

[Anonynnous Coward]

The requirement for parental information to be considered is there because Congress recognized that a young person's college education costs should be contributed to by the parents. If parents choose not to contribute, that hardly constitutes independence. (If it did, I imagine there wouldn't be many parents helping out with college--everyone would be "independent.") I don't believe this constitutes a "bias" of any kind, particularly not against non-traditional students, who tend to be older making this a moot point, anyway.

That said, financial aid officers have the ability to exercise professional judgement, and to not include parental income and assets in case of genuine estrangement or abuse. But they won't tend to help mom and dad get out of helping to pay for college. If they choose not to, it's not the taxpayer's to pick up the bill.

What is Non-Traditional? What options?

[markwelch]

Forgive me, but it basically sounds like the question is, "how can some working dads get money for college, without affecting their ability to support their families?" And the answer is, they really are no different from other students - if they don't have income or assets, they can get financial aid but not money to support their families (except in some very rare situations). If they want to go to school full time (and have not already exhausted available financial aid), they are eligible for the same programs as other students. If they want to attent part-time, their options are much more limited and of course if they earn money they will be eligible for less "free" money (likely none at all).

What's the issue here, really? Time and money, right? If a working dad (or mom) wants to go back to college, and still see the kids once or twice a week, full-time employment probably isn't an option, and that probably means a huge cut in lifestyle.

Well, I have lots of time these days, and I am considering changing my profession (again).

Last time, I quit my job as a reporter for InfoWorld (in 1986) and went to law school, where I don't think I got any financial aid except federal student loan program. I attended a public university (UC Berkeley) before the state of California jacked up tuition beyond reach, I moved into a tiny shared apartment, and I worked full-time (as a syndicated columnist) while also attending law school full-time. Of course, I didn't have a family to deal with, I know my fellow students who did went through hell, especially the single moms. Then, in

I am now considering making another change: I am seriously considering teaching high school. To my surprise, getting a teaching credential requires quite a bit of effort and time, and of course money. (For a 41-year-old with a B.A. and a J.D., the prospect of going back to college again is a bit unsettling.)

Finally, to answer the question posed:

• I doubt these "non-traditional students" are willing to go the ROTC route, which someone mentioned, since this would mean committing to low-paying work for the armed services for several years. There are also age limits.
• Loans are almost always available, but while they provide a rope to lift you into college, after college a heavy debt burden may look more like a noose (especially if the student chooses not to pursue employment in the college-trained career, or worse yet if the student drops out without a degree).
• As noted, working is the most logical strategy. Enroll in classes at a public university or college, indeed some classes can be taken at a community college very cheaply.
• There are still a few companies that offer educational assistance, for work-related course work and sometimes even for non-work-related courses. These are mostly big corporations (or recent spinoffs from big corporations who've carried their programs along). Alas, the current economy doesn't leave many of these jobs open.
• I hesitate to mention it, but it is theoretically possible that a "non-traditional student" with kids might find some benefits under the "Welfare-to-Work" programs that many states are offering. That doesn't mean they must apply for welfare -- check out the state's programs, schedule appointments, wait in the lines, and maybe there might be a program that could provide some help.

Of course, I wish that someone would offer me some financial assistance if I do decide to enroll in a teacher preparation program (after all, I surely believe that our society needs more teachers with backgrounds like mine, or at least I might say that if it gets me some money). And you certainly should be aware that there are all kinds of programs that could provide support for people who are planning a "public service" career (teaching, social work, etc.), and even private associations like my local Rotary Club provide assistance for several types of college and post-graduate scholarships.

But at some point, we really shouldn't expect help to continue. After all, I already have the training and skill to get full-time employment in at least two different professions (journalist or attorney, and of course I already work as an internet marketing consultant), and I already got LOTS of "free money" financial aid as an undergraduate, plus interest-subsidized and low-interest student loans during both undergraduate and law school (all repaid a while ago), and of course the states of Massachusetts and California each spent more money on my education than I ever paid in tuition anyway (well, technically I didn't pay tuition as an undergraduate because I qualified for a special merit scholarship from the state, which was not need-based).

Finally, aren't programmers a dime a dozen right now? Why would anyone want to subsidize education of programmers (other than through loans), if there are already many programmers who are not employed?

Re:What is Non-Traditional? What options?

[acceleriter]

Finally, aren't programmers a dime a dozen right now? Why would anyone want to subsidize education of programmers (other than through loans), if there are already many programmers who are not employed?

Because a leading industry lobbying organization, the ITAA, says we need more programmers to keep up with demand. Now we know that means "We need seasoned Solaris admins and Oracle DBA's who'll work eighty hour weeks for $18,000/year" but apparently Congress doesn't, or at least is getting enough in "contributions" not to notice.

<OBLawyerCheapshot> By your logic, why would law students have been eligible for federal loans when you earned your J.D.?</OBLawyerCheapShot>

Re:What is Non-Traditional? What options?

[markwelch]

>> By your logic, why would law students have been eligible for federal loans when you earned your J.D.? Well, one obvious reason would be in order to get new attorneys to represent chronically-under-represented groups, but of course that's not a requirement. In fact, student loans are available for nearly all accredited post-secondary educational programs, including fields like art history, which have extremely high percentages of graduates who can't find work in their speciality.

Re:What is Non-Traditional? What options?

[acceleriter]

Well, one obvious reason would be in order to get new attorneys to represent chronically-under-represented groups, but of course that's not a requirement.

I dare say that the Higher Education Act of 1965, as amended, says nothing about supplying attorneys to underrepresented groups. Although that's a big piece of law, and I could easily be wrong. Not that it isn't a worthy goal. When I was younger and more naïve, I thought I would like being a lawyer. Fortunately, people like Lessig have stepped up and I can admire them rather than taking three years off to go to law school.

In fact, student loans are available for nearly all accredited post-secondary educational programs, including fields like art history, which have extremely high percentages of graduates who can't find work in their speciality.

So why pick on Computer Science? The point I was trying to good-naturedly (honest) make is that while you feel there is a glut of programmers, other people of good will feel that there is a glut of lawyers.

Re:What is Non-Traditional? What options?

[el_chicano]

I am now considering making another change: I am seriously considering teaching high school. To my surprise, getting a teaching credential requires quite a bit of effort and time, and of course money. (For a 41-year-old with a B.A. and a J.D., the prospect of going back to college again is a bit unsettling.)

The state of Texas is experiencing a major shortage of qualified teachers. If you have a bachelor's degree you can actually teach while you work on your teacher's certificate. I believe that you have two years to get the teacher's certificate, but that should not be too hard because those who already have a bachelor's degree only have to take an additional 30 hours to get the certificate.

Doing it this way you can take a college course or two each semester you teach and spend the summers doing the major work on the teaching certificate. This way also enables you to get some good teaching experience while you go to school -- you would not want to go to school for two years just to find out you hate teaching!

Check with your state, they may have a similar program. Good luck with your impending career change!

Re:What is Non-Traditional? What options?

[markwelch]

California also allows schools to hire folks like me under "emergency credentials" for several years. For those students not already teaching, student-teaching is required.

I think I'd be more inclined to try substitute teaching first, to at least see how I like being in the classroom, though I doubt it would really be a fair comparison to being a "real" teacher. I would certainly not want to start teaching a full-year class and then decide this is just the wrong thing for me -- I'd feel pretty awful abandoning "my" students at that point.

I would much prefer to at least attend some kind of basic education about teaching styles, child development, administrative processes, etc., before walking into a classroom as The Guy In Charge. Of course, I assume that the New Guy isn't going to be teaching AP English to the best students, so I think some better training is important. But this is all pretty early-stage for me, we'll see how things go.

Look into local community colleges for IT training

[el_chicano]

I am probably the most non-traditional student you will ever run into: I am 43 and have earned over 240 college hours with no college degree yet!

I have been taking computer courses at Houston Community College for the last three years. HCC offers some excellent courses and is much cheaper than the University of Houston. Texas now has a common course numbering scheme for IT courses so transferring these credits to upper-level universities is not a problem.

Before anyone dismisses community colleges out of hand I would like to point out that many community colleges have IT certificates that students can earn without having to take non-IT courses. If you already have taken the core courses you can specialize in IT courses.

In my case, I had previously earned 90+ hours at Rice University and 70+ hours at the University of Houston, so I did not have to take English, History, Poli Sci, etc. I was able to take nothing but IT courses (except for an English technical writing course and several courses in Real Estate that I have taken for fun).

The end result? I now have five IT certificates and have gotten lots of experience in many IT technologies (C/C++, Unix/Linux, SQL/databases) and I ended up with a cool job with HCC Distance Education as a Hardware/Software Tech.

I mainly do tech support and training for students, faculty and staff. I also got my very own server (running Red Hat) and I also get to spend a lot of time hacking webpages together with PHP/MySQL. I can say for sure that my computer training at HCC prepared me wonderfully for my current job, so I don't hesitate to recommend community college IT courses to others.

Many feel that community colleges are always behind the tech curve but I know HCC is not that way. HCC offers Oracle courses that track the Oracle certificate preparation courses that cost thousands more. This summer I am taking courses in Perl/CGI/DBI and XML, which I believe are not offered by any other university or community college in the Houston area.

As far as funding goes, community colleges also work with the federal and state financial aid programs and scholarship programs. I was lucky enough to win a two year $5,000 National Science Foundation scholarship. Since I am a Texas veteran with no V.A. benefits left, I get tuition waivers. After I pay for books, I am actually making money by going to school!

Also, many community colleges have COOP programs where students can get work experience as they go to school. You may want to investigate community college COOP programs in your area to see if your students could benefit from them.

if only i had mod points

[cheezus]

um... +100, Informative. That's a better explaination of financial aid than I got as an incoming freshman.

Re:if only i had mod points

[Anonynnous Coward]

Thanks :)--even though I completely forgot to mention work-study.

Options

[DarkGamer]

Well if you don't care about a diploma and just want to learn to do it you can always just buy a fat stack of O'reilly books from amazon. Keep in mind that a BA is a good thing to have, it removes the glass ceiling and gives you a nice header for your resume.

Another option is to get all of your liberal arts out of the way at your local community college, and then transfer to a more prestigious and probably more expensive school to round out your BA requirements and get all your CS classes. (I don't know how it is where you are, but here in CA I think it's something like $5 a unit at a CC)

Re:Options

[toast0]

last i checked its $11 a unit in CA, (down from $12... is kinda nice for education costs to go down :)

check the library...

[larry bagina]

or your local mega bookstore for a "free gov't money" type book. The feds do offer tax credit, tax deduction, grants, or loans for higher education in circumstances that may apply to you (in association with a career change, etc).

Some employers offer tuition reimbursement as well (I've had 2 post-graduate college classes paid for by my employer, and got a tax deduction for 2 others).

Move....

[BerserkDog]

Move to Georgia, establish permanent residence=become eligible for Hope grant(Hope scholarship is for those who graduated HS in GA).
I have a family, full time job, but between the Hope and my GI bill, no worries, except I no longer have time to shower, sleep, eat and a few other trivial hobbies.

Easy.

[psavo]

Move to Finland.
Education (all of it) is free here. And we get Linuses.

ROTC

[duffbeer703]

ROTC doesn't require you to commit to a low paying job.

Total compensation for a green 2nd Lieutenant is $35k. Not a princely sum, but not terrible either. Pay rates do increase over time and there is a differential for hazardous duty.

Then again, military life is probaly not well-suited to a non-traditional student with a family.

Re:ROTC

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't there an age cutoff though? I started looking at ROTC and direct commission options for funding a masters in software engineering but got scared off after being told I was too old. I'm 29.

Not to ask the obvious...

[Satan's Librarian]

But why do they need to go to college to become programmers, especially if they are promising? What they need is a good base in logic, algorithms, craftsmanship, a language, and some hard earned experience. I have no degree and no high-school diploma, but I own my own personal library devoted to programming , read and code regularly, and can still (yes, even after the .bombs) write my own ticket for jobs. Most people in the programming industries these days want to know what you can do and how you can do it - not where you when to school or what your GPA is, because quite honestly there is a huge influx of really poor but really heavily degreed and certified programmers and administrators. One of the hazards of being at the top of the "most desired profession" lists for too long I think....

CS is cheap

[Hard_Code]

Really, CS is probably one of the cheapest fields to get an education in:

* Middle-of-the-line PC: $1200
* Books: 4bk/yr * ~$50/bks * 4yrs = ~$800 (MAX - remember there are libraries)
* Internet connection: ~$40/mo
* Time: furnish this yourself

Unless you really need to work on some funky hardware I'd wager most CS can be learned with very little as far as equipment/supplies. There is very low startup costs, and with open source, you can basically go wherever your imagination takes you.

You're THAT Mark Welch?

[ralphc]

Last time, I quit my job as a reporter for InfoWorld (in 1986) and went to law school,

Hey! You panned my product, Greeting Card Maker for DOS! You said my 16-color mode EGA was ugly, I didn't support color dot-matrix printers and my terminate-and-stay-resident mode locked up your system!
Well, it's taken me years but I will have my revenge when I unveil...Greeting Card Maker for DOS with Extended Memory Support!

Re:You're THAT Mark Welch?

[markwelch]

Eh? I panned a lot of products, both as a reviewer for magazines (including InfoWorld during my first year of law school from 1986-87) and later as a syndicated columnist (a negative review is, of course, so much more fun to write than a positive review, see my recent work at http://www.MarkWelch.com/perspective/), but I can't recall ever reviewing any "Greeting Card" programs that I can recall. The only possibility I can think of is that my co-author may have included your product in one of our "pre-holiday" columns (this would have been the "Law Office Technology Review" column that was syndicated to legal newspapers, which I co-authored with Barry Bayer from 1987-90).

Re:You're THAT Mark Welch?

[ralphc]

Er...it was a joke. I just threw together all the cheesy circa-1986 technologies I could think of that no one would care about anymore. Thought the 'revenge with XMS' remark would be a giveaway. Guess they all can't be funny.

Ask the school

[battjt]

The school I went to would let anyone with the ability and the interest attend. The Alumni had very deep pockets and would help anyone with sufficient interest.

Ask the school.

Joe

Fellowships for education

[Dreben]

You are seeking fellowships. There are many. Here, for example, is a list of fellowships that are independent of, but kept track by Cornel University...

Cornel Fellowship Notebook

Note: Some are more lucrative than others, while some require some type of employment commitment upon completion of sponsored event.

Online courses

[MoneyT]

As long as these students are non-traditional, they might as well go with non-traditional learning. I know there are a fe colleges which offer distance/internet learning. Often the cost is slightly less than actualy attending the college, at least that's what I've heard. The only downside I can see is it's sometimes hard to learn in your home.

You can work

[bluGill]

I know a man who put himself through 2 years of college, while also supproting his wife and kid, making minium wage. He was an old fashioned type of guy who didn't not belive in womehn working outside the home. (with kids not yet a year old it is hard to find any advantage in that anyway, but mostly it was their life choice)

It can be done. It isn't easy, but it can be done. the only reason he didn't finish is after working 40 hour week and school he had no time for the family. (Eventially he went on the fast food management track, and while he could be making more as a programer, he is well over the average salery for his area)

You have to figgure out your values, and energy level. School is always hard, I'm not sure I would recomend it, just because it can take too muh family time from you. YMMV