Freshly Created: comp.lang.php

Agelmar writes: "A newgroup control message was sent out for comp.lang.php today. Many servers already carry the new group, and almost all servers around the globe should carry it within the next day or two. The new group is a wonderful place to turn to for support / questions regarding PHP, and is symbolic of PHP's coming to full power, finally entering the comp.lang.* hierarchy with the rest of the mature languages. (For those who are interested, the new group passed 177-11.) Feel free to drop by the new group, and stick around!"

Comments

PHP sucks

[Anomolous Cow Herd]

For those of you hunting to an even uglier alternative to Perl, you'll find a friend in PHP. From the awkward string manipulation routines (who the fuck would want to use C-like functions to manipulate strings in a scripting lanugage?) to the horrendously crappy object oriented programming model, PHP has everything that nobody wants or needs in a language. Hell, you can even embed Perl in HTML pages these days in the same manner.

So, to recap, folks, PHP is...

• Prone to security holes and misc. bugs
• An awful pain to program
• Slow as a dog, even in it's intended "niche" use as a web scripting language. Anyone intending to do something serious with a website would use Servlets or at least mod_perl.

Re:PHP sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

But at least it doesn't take 10 seconds to load the first time, like ASPX pages.

Atleast, Spam for PHP users too

[Bouncings]

Finally, PHP users can enjoy the benefits of usenet. Unmoderated trolls, spam, and email harvesting. Oh, and let's not forget the php vs perl vs iMac flame wars. Yeehaw!

Newsgroups, for newbies?

[ObviousGuy]

Anyone who has stumbled into the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup and asked a question that was covered in the FAQ knows firsthand how a newsgroup can be when it comes to servicing newbies. Does the PHP culture have a more inclusive bent and willingness to answer the same questions over and over than Perl?

Re:Newsgroups, for newbies?

[Agelmar]

Actually, yes, I think the Usenet PHP culture does have a more inclusive attitude. In alt.php, the whole "Help, I upgraded to PHP 4.2.x and now my script doesn't work because I didn't read the release notes which clearly state that Register_globals is off by default" does get a bit old, but the question gets answered every time. With that one possible exception, the alt.php / alt.comp.lang.php groups are extremely friendly to new users, willing to go over people's code to find problems / suggest improvements, and the likes. While I would not say that we yern for a flood of newbie posts and Regiser_global posts, I would like to think that the PHP-Usenet community is friendly and willing to help people at all levels of PHP-proficiency.

Re:Newsgroups, for newbies?

[Anonymous Coward]

• Does the PHP culture have a more inclusive bent and willingness to answer the same questions over and over than Perl?

Ack, another one? Read the damn FAQ!

Re:Newsgroups, for newbies?

[Anonymous Coward]

They do seem to be a bit more inclusive, but they also are not as good. :(

Re:Newsgroups, for newbies?

[Lips]

Interestingly I find this to be the attitude of a lot of open source d00ds (maybe its the d00ds that are the problem). You ask what you think is a reasonable question and people call you an idiot. And yet people say how great the "community support" is. Until this sort of behaviour changes, open source will have no hope in getting into average users's homes. Imagine an NT admin wanting to discuss things, just to get an idea as to what this open source is about and being made to feel 2 inches tall. Thats not how you win mindshare.

'The new group is a wonderful place . . .'?

[Mordant]

Um, since it's a -new- group, how the hell do you know that?

Only 188 ballots?

[afabbro]

Only 188 votes? Only 11 'no' votes?

I admit it's been a while since I participated in the whole RFC->CFV process but four or five years ago, votes were much bigger. Heck, I think the hardcore of "always vote no" voters - who felt that by voting no they raised the bar - was more than 188.

Again prefacing by noting my ignorance of recent USENET trends, I ask: is USENET getting smaller? More traffic on web-site bulletin boards and less on USENET?

Re:Only 188 ballots?

[isorox]

Up until about '98/'99 I was an avid follower of quite a few news groups, particularly uk.media.tv.sf.startrek. Not anymore - theres more ontopic posts on buliten boards now, as the number of net newbies increases.

Having said that, my dad used to post regularly to several travel newsgroups via deja and later google - mainly because of the lack of decent discussion bars. Now of course he runs his own bar for 17 hours a day in the summer, so doesnt have time.

Most new people dont know about usenet though, and most old timers migrate away, hence dwindling population.

This is all excluding spam of course!

Re:Only 188 ballots?

[/dev/trash]

What killed USENET for me was the fact that of the 4 local ISP's I had to chose from, not one had USENET servers, sure I could do the deja or google route, but why bother?

other groups

[Anonymous Coward]

So how long until we see comp.lang.c-hash? Or is it goint to be comp.lang.c-pound? comp.lang.c-oglethorpe maybe??

Re:other groups

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you're so clever. Look at that! You thought of some really clever slights on C#! Keep up the good work!

I can't write so much, I've got to get back to programming Coffee, I mean, Drip, I mean, Joe... No, I really mean Java. Hahaha. I'm almost as funny as you! I never could be as funny, though. You're the master.

I love you, man!

Re:other groups

[isorox]

It'd be c-hash. c-pound would be "c£"

Re:other groups

[CiaranMc]

It'd be c-sharp, presumably.

That being the name of the language and all.

Re:other groups

[J'raxis]

The # symbol has a multitude of names, including:

• Hash
• Pound
• Number [sign]
• Sharp
• Crosshatch
• Octothorpe

Of course, as noted above, the newsgroup would be called C-Sharp since that's what the language is called; however, the symbol itself can be called a pound sign.

Re:other groups

[ceej]

Really? I always pronounced it "uh hash uv java".

usenet is dead

[Innomi]

The spam has long since killed it.

Re:usenet is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Only the big eight. at.* and de.* are running quite OK, with hardly any spam.

Why when there are much better resources out there

[Phil John]

Dev-shed forums are still where I go for my PHP questions or to browse and post answers...it's a nice moderated forum and a lot more friendly than usenet, abusive users can be banned by moderators.

I used to usenet but not anymore...it's just too anarchic for my tastes...

I've also seen hardly any newbie bashing on dev-shed, the reason? Only people who really want to get/respond to answers seem to frequent the forums...whereas anyone with a chip on his/her shoulder can stumble upon a usenet group...*sigh*...

Maybe it's just that the PHP community is just plain nicer than others... ;o)

to be honest

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes 10 seconds the first time, and then it's compiled and cached after that, and runs faster than a PHP page. So you see, people who program real world applications, you know, not just your little homepage running off you Lee-Nucks box attached to your little dialup connection, people who do real programming that matters, they accept the initial 10 second load time for stability and performance in the long run. Go to school now; once you complete 8th grade, you can go to high school and wear big boy pants.

Re:to be honest

[Anonymous Coward]

So use a PHP caching product, like PHP Accelerator and your PHP will run even faster.

Re:to be honest

[King of the World]

they accept the initial 10 second load time for stability and performance in the long run

Er, you don't gain performance or stability.

Wow.

[bellings]

Wow. There sure are a lot of useful comments posted in reply to this article. I'm glad I'm on Slashdot, where all the smart people are.

I'd love to check it out but.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Does any one know a good free NNTP server./
I've tried a few before but there either down all the time or not great.

missing, of couse, the other advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is using a unified framework, that is logically structured, and runs in a secured, garbage collected engironment.
You see, PHP is a mess. Its flat namespaces are a disaster, its "object oriented" programming features are a thing to be avoided at all costs; it's cruft upon cruft. Effective, yes, sort of. But if you're doing real programming, you want to use real tools, not the ugly little hack job that is PHP.

Re:missing, of couse, the other advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

True dat.

OO gets better with the betas in use now. They scrapped lots of the old engine.

Re:missing, of couse, the other advantage

[Tablizer]

(* PHP is a mess. Its flat namespaces are a disaster *)

What do you mean? What is an example?

(* its "object oriented" programming features are a thing to be avoided at all costs *)

Some programmers don't believe in OO. Unless you have some solid evidence that it is objectively better, you should respect that some people just don't like OO and see no benefit in it. OO is like an inkblot: different people see different things in it.

I have complaints about PHP also, but not those. My list includes:

- No named parameters

- Too many functions that do nearly the same thing
(should have used option parameters or named parameters for things like case-sensativity differences.)

- Granularity of error/warning reporting too course. I want to control individual features rather than just a "level".

- Regional-level vars without using a "Global" qualifer. (This one is controversial. I can see both sides of the argument.)

PHP and named parameters

[Tablizer]

Can anybody tell me why PHP does not have named parameters?

Why would that be low on the wish-lists?

Fast versus Good

[Tablizer]

(* It takes 10 seconds the first time, and then it's compiled and cached after that, and runs faster than a PHP page. So you see, people who program real world applications, you know, not just your little homepage running off you Lee-Nucks box attached to your little dialup connection, people who do real programming that matters, they accept the initial 10 second load time for stability and performance in the long run. *)

Why do you associate "real programmers" with making *fast* applications? Speed is not always the driving factor, especially on intranets and some B-to-B.

Sometimes you want complexity, sometimes you want speed, and sometimes you want both.

I agree that PHP would probably not be the best bet for say e-bay, but just because it is not good for e-bay does not mean it is a poor choice for other things.

One-size-does-not-fit-all. Viva Choice!

A 10-second delay sounds annoying for development. Too bad they could not make it interpreted for development, and then a compile for the final product. Microsoft has the money for both.

(Microsoft stuff stable? Bwaaaaa haa haaaa ha!)

for example

[Anonymous Coward]

Say I'm using mysql. I call one of the mysql_xxx functions. But to use, say, SQL Server (blech!) I use a mssql_xxx. But I don't import a new package or anything. Everything is just sitting there in one ugly mass of shit. At least do something pragmatic and provide a kind of library import system for these things. there's just too much crap there by default.

Re:for example

[Tablizer]

(* Say I'm using mysql. I call one of the mysql_xxx functions. But to use, say, SQL Server (blech!) I use a mssql_xxx. But I don't import a new package or anything. Everything is just sitting there in one ugly mass of shit. At least do something pragmatic and provide a kind of library import system for these things. there's just too much crap there by default. *)

I am not sure exactly what your complaint is. Calling it a "big ugly mess" is not conveying much. I think Java's API's are a "big ugly mess".

I don't like the database API's either. But, you can wrap them any way you want. (If PHP had named parameters, it would be easier IMO.)

It had to happen.

[blair1q]

Imminent death of Usenet predicted.

--Blair
"Dont' worry. It'll outlive the Dow."

hm.

[David E. Smith]

Is there such a thing as degrees of Slashdot? (Kinda like that old "degrees of Kevin Bacon" thing.) I don't think I've ever been Slashdotted, but the linked article was written by me (as votetaker), so is that like two degrees from Slashdot?

Re:hm.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, faggot.