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Janis Ian on the Internet Debacle

Datasage writes "Janis Ian, famous songwriter and artist, writes about her views of free music downloads, the music industry and the evils of the RIAA in this article." Yet another artist with substantial first-person experience speaking out, reminiscent of Courtney Love's speech.

21 of 418 comments (clear)

  1. Debate reveals artists' true colors by patmandu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This really boils down to "who's in it for the self-validation" vs "who's in it for the music." It seems that much of the response to the music swapping debate just goes to show where these folks' alliances are. Mettalica was in it for the prestige and decided to suck up to the record company who was promoting them and making them 'famous'. Janis Ian (and others) is showing herself as someone who is in it to make music, not to get famous.

    The fame-junkies are going to ally with the record companies no matter how much or little they get paid. But to quote Bowie, "Fame...makes [someone] loose and hard to swallow."

    The ironic part is, if they ditched the record companies and made a *real* effort to come up with an internet-based music distribution system with micropayments, they'd all probably make more money, AND get more direct control over their work...which is a much more 'real' power than the record companies' 'fame' they peddle.

    1. Re:Debate reveals artists' true colors by FatRatBastard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Mettalica was in it for the prestige and decided to suck up to the record company who was promoting them and making them 'famous'.

      No, Metallica was in it because, unlike 90%+ of the artists signed to the big five, they actually *own* their recording rights. Look at a Metallica CD. It doesn't say (C)(P) Electra (their lable).

      Now, this is not to say I agree with Metallica's stance, but its understandable why theirs and Janis' view points are different.

    2. Re:Debate reveals artists' true colors by niola · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you have the wrong impression of Metallica. While they did ruffle a lot of feathers with the way they proceeded, their argument somehow got lost in all the hoopla. Their stance was do not share their studio albums, but share bootlegs etc. to your heart's content.

      Anyone who has gone to a Metallica show knows that they ENCOURAGE recording of their shows fror your own enjoyment. In fact I have even heard instances of them letting people jack recording gear into their console at the show should you happen to be close enough.

      Their argument, whether you agree with it or not, was that artists should have final say on what is shared and what is not. On this point I would have to agree with them. It shouldn't be the fan's or the label's decision. The decision should be the artists that created the work. If they want to selectively allow some works to be shared and others not, it should be their perogative.

      --Jon

    3. Re:Debate reveals artists' true colors by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      the problem is that EVERYONE is getting way too greedy and is forgetting WHO and how they got sucessful.

      The fans turned on Metallica like rabid wolves because they went directly against what they said and stood for. Bootlegs is what MADE metallica. Photos shot with crappy throw away cameras is what MADE metallica. the fans are what MADE metallica. not their genius, Lar's F**King drumming abilities (there are tons more and better drummers than lars) or anything to do with what they did.

      The same is with current bands.. I saw Nickleback this past tuesday, they insulted and made mad a large number of fans as they over searched everyone TWICE looking not for drugs,liquor,or weapons but CAMERAS. enough to get a large group to complain about it.

      it's time that people get tired of the crap that bands and the labels pull. Me taking a grainey/far away photo at a concert is not going to cost anyone anything.... not letting me do so costs a fan and sales.. as I will no longer buy anything that they are affiliated with and let everyone know that they are fricking greedy bastards.

      hopefully more artists will have the moxy and arent corrupted too badly to follow Janis's view.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:Debate reveals artists' true colors by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful
      • Their argument, whether you agree with it or not, was that artists should have final say on what is shared and what is not. On this point I would have to agree with them. It shouldn't be the fan's or the label's decision. The decision should be the artists that created the work. If they want to selectively allow some works to be shared and others not, it should be their perogative.

      This is absolutely correct. It's the letter and spirit of copyright law.

      Unfortunately, it's also largely irrelevant, because the vast majority of artists don't own the rights to their own work. They have chosen to sell them to big labels, and have no legal or moral rights to comment on how that work is used.

      The only people that can comment on the work are the weasels in suits at the labels. Whether you agree with it or not, that's the law, and I suggest that it's also what's right, because artists are persuaded to sign away all rights not by being beaten with a stick, but by being shown a huge carrot.

      You can argue that artists don't have a choice, that the only way to get wide distribution is to sign in blood to a label. Bullshit. If you want wide distribution, put your music on gnutella. Signing with a label is about greed, it's about gambling that you'll be in the 1% that actually makes money, and makes it big. Oh, delicious irony, that 99% of artists are wrong, and get screwed. Dumb, greedy fucks.

      I was one of the few people that actually agreed with the substance of what Metallica were saying. But the trouble was that they should have stuck to just talking about themselves, rather than appearing on a platform with repulsive label weasels, and dribbling on about other artists' rights (most of whom have none). If they were being honest, they should have said "Screw everyone else. Just don't pirate our stuff, because we've been good to you in the past, you selfish fuckers." But they didn't, they toed the corporate line and tried to imply that the respect that they'd earned also applied to the hordes of talentless meat puppets that infest the airwaves and MTV-a-like channels. Bzzt, wrong, both legally and morally.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  2. Compassion for the artists? by LeiraHoward · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I find it interesting that the artists are that badly mistreated (as far as low royalties, etc.) And this artist does have a point. I know I myself have bought CD's from artists that I had never heard of until a friend sent me an .mp3 of their song. I liked it so much, I wanted more, and went out and paid for it.

    I think that the RIAA is just frightened that they are losing control. If they were really worried about the artists, they would be paying them more, and not resorting to some of the more unethical practices that have become standard in the music industry.

    If they really wanted to help the consumer, they could lower CD prices everywhere, so that more people could purchase more songs.

    If they really wanted to help the artist, they would funnel more money to the artist, rather than their own pockets.

    The truth is, though, that they only want to help themselves, and as such, there isn't much we can do about it. We can let our voices be heard, and hope that one day, CD copying will be just as legal as taping something off the radio or television.

  3. Great Article... by 2g3-598hX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And David Bowie had some pretty good stuff to say, too.

    Just a thought, but it would be great if more stars of the 60s spoke out against the record companies on this one. Those decrepit baby boomers owe it to us later generations...

    Lobby your favorite aging rocker. I bet their back catalogues make up a sizeable portion of record company revenue, and the've already made a fortune so they have less to risk by speaking out. And once we get Ozzy Osbourne et al on the case...

  4. I fear by rhadamanthus · · Score: 5, Insightful
    That nothing will change though. There is simply TOO much money at stake here--but its the same old problem with the RIAA and friends...

    Basically, corporations such as Disney and industry groups such as the MPAA and RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) cannot seem to fathom the existence of a customer who is both honest enough to not steal, yet smart enough to not let him/herself be ripped off.

    The opposing view: A study compiled by the Yankelovich Partners surveyed 16,000 Americans between the ages of 13 and 39 who say they listen to more than 10 hours of music a week and have spent at least $25 on music in the past six months. Among the findings: 59 percent of those who said they heard a certain piece of music for the first time while online ended up purchasing that music as a CD.

    What is truly patheitc is how they rant and rave about how they want to "protect the artist", all the while doing just the opposite--and GETTING AWAY WITH IT. What the RIAA does not want you or I to realize is that they most certainly do NOT represent the artists contracted to their labels. They represent nothing more than a coalition of companies milking copyright to its fullest extent.

    Copyright is no longer a good thing. It is sad that such a good "idea" has become such a misused and abused facet of corporate ideology and overwhelming greed.

    ----rhad

    --
    Slashdot needs to interview Natalie Portman.
    1. Re:I fear by HiThere · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They're too late for that goal. It's been years since I've encountered anyone who believed that the music industry benefited musicians (as a class, rather than as a particular selected individual). And I don't think I've ever met anyone who believed that it was run for the benefit of the consumers.

      But it sounds like a good answer to a reporter, and won't usually be openly scoffed at. If for no other reason, then because the publisher doesn't want to offend a large advertiser.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:I fear by wfrp01 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Basically, corporations such as Disney and industry groups such as the MPAA and RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) cannot seem to fathom the existence of a customer...

      I would put the period right there. Too many corporations cannot fathom the existence of a customer.

      I was watching some talking head on one of the tv money shows the other night. They were discussing, what else, corporate mismanagement. This guy was some kind of hot-shot investor, and he was all hot and bothered because company executives had forgotten their one true purpose: to serve the shareholders!.

      WTF?!

      The ignorance is so rampant, no frickin' wonder we're witnessing such a show of corporate suicide. What about the goddamn customer?! What about developing, manufacturing, marketing, distributing, and supporting a product that customers want to buy!?

      The tail is wagging the dog. Customer satisfaction has taken a back seat to corporate profitability and shareholder value. Selfishness is regularly promoted as the root of all that is good and holy. It should be the other way around. Hence the expression "the customer is always right." - it used to be a maxim of good business practice. When is the last time you heard anything resembling that expression on "Money News with Pinstripe Boy"?

      Look no further than that epitomy of self-serving capitalism - Microsoft - to see just how far awry this philosophy has taken us. If they can't compel people to buy their products because they want to, then damn it, let's force them to upgrade by continually changing file formats and protocols. Oh, and let's not forget lobbying Congress to create new laws declaring certain undesireable competitors criminals.

      --

      --Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
    3. Re:I fear by TWR · · Score: 5, Informative
      Um, the investor you heard was correct: the shareholders of a corporation are its owners. The people running the corporation have a primary responsibility to the owners (shareholders) to run the company such that the owners get a return on their money (through dividends, which are not all that common any more) or to increase the value of what the owners, well, own.

      If a corporation is too abstract of a concept, let's do a thought experiment. Pretend you have a child who wants to start a lawn-mowing business. The child needs money to buy a lawn mower, print up fliers, pay for gas, etc. You agree to give your kid the money in exchange for, say, 25% of the profits. In effect, you have just bought 25% of your kid's company.

      Who is the kid responsible to? If you have a consciencious child, you hope that he wants to pay back your faith in him by making money. After all, that was the deal. The primary responsibilty, as you can see, is to the person who made this little company possible in the first place.

      If screwing customers is a good plan for a company to make money and increase its value, you can hardly fault the company beacuse the customers put up with being screwed. Long-term, companies survive because the put out a product that people want. Generating ill will doesn't work long term. Unfortunately, the Enron/Worldcom/Adelphia/whoever's next bastards don't care about the long term, don't care about their customers, and don't care about their shareholders. If they did care about the shareholders, they wouldn't have been lying to them. The system needs fixes because it's too easy for lying weasels to get away with hiding things from shareholders. After that, everything else will fall into place, including customer satisfaction.

      Heck, if you don't like how record companies are currently working, start buying record company shares. Don't like how MS works? Buy MS shares. Set up a fund. Every time you want to buy a CD or DVD or piece of software, use that money to buy stock instead. Let lots of people pool their money, get a large voting bloc of stock. Then change the policies. That's how the system works.

      -jon

      --

      Remember Amalek.

    4. Re:I fear by 5KVGhost · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I was watching some talking head on one of the tv money shows the other night. They were discussing, what else, corporate mismanagement. This guy was some kind of hot-shot investor, and he was all hot and bothered because company executives had forgotten their one true purpose: to serve the shareholders!.

      WTF?!
      Both of you are correct, actually, but I think you're a little bit more correct.

      Shareholders have to get some return on their investment or they won't stay shareholders or attract new ones. And there's nothing wrong with that.

      Of course, the proper way to give them a return on their investment is please the customers who buy their products, thereby keeping the company healthy, and ultimately delivering some profits that can be distributed back to the investors (and/or re-invested to fund the continued operation of the company.) So, yeah, make money for the shareholders by having lots of happy, paying customers.

      But pleasing consumers and making competitive products can be hard work. So some CEOs, for their own immediate benefit and to satisfy impatient shareholders, have taken advantage of all sorts of short-cuts to make profits appear without the hard work of actually offering decent products or services. It might be massive "cost cutting" that fires the most competent employees or sells off strong but unglamourous assets, accounting tricks to hide poor sales and bad investments, or lots of other things. All of these get rich quick schemes tend to maximize short-term financial gain at the expense of the long-term health of the company. So it's not really matter of selfishness vs. pleasing the customer. It's more a matter of enlightened self-interest vs. immediate gain with no interest in the ultimate consequences.

      Something I think is just as bad is the current demand for constant growth. It forces otherwise sane companies to overextend themselves with pointless acquisitions and other silly corporate strategies simply for the sake of keeping irrational market advisors happy. Corporate growth, like growth in living things, must be directed, purposeful, and carefully controlled or it weakens the body rather than strengthening it.

      (I think obligatory MS-bashing there at the end is a bit off base, BTW. MS can do whatever it wants with its products, and they're really no worse than many other companies as far as rampant upgrades are concerned. MS has supported some bad legislation in the past, but they're boy scouts compared to really nasty companies like Monsanto, which can do way more real-world damage than any computer company ever dreamed of.)
  5. Re:Very interesting article by rhadamanthus · · Score: 5, Informative
    So very true. I wrote a letter to several congress-types, in which I wrote:

    "Furthermore, the advent of Napster in 1999 was followed by an overall increase in record sales by the RIAA for the next two years! The RIAA sold 10.8 percent more CDs that year even after increasing the price on those discs by over 12.3 percent. In 2000 this trend continued with another increase in CD price (from $13.65 to $14.02 on average) and an increase in sales again by over 3,600,000 CDs. It is worth noting also that in the last nine years the RIAA has tripled their annual income during a supposed economic downturn. For the years 1999 and 2000 the total profit made by the RIAA went from 14,584,500,000 dollars to 14,323,000,000 dollars. However, they lost 579,500,000 dollars on vinyls, cassettes and music videos, areas that Napster cannot possibly have an effect upon! In the formats Napster can trade, the RIAA made 318,500,000 more dollars than before!"

    These numbers don't lie....

    The fact is that Napster's popularity appears to have spurred CD sales to new levels. This makes sense, if you think about it: The large majority of people are not on fast broadband connections to the Internet. On a 56K modem, downloading an MP3 can take some time, certainly enough to make downloading an entire album seem like a lot of effort. Then, more time is required to get the songs onto the CD. Common sense says that if people using Napster liked a song enough on MP3, they would probably go out and buy the album, just as if they heard it on the radio. Napster gave people the chance to experience music they otherwise might have been loathe to pay money for, only to find out that the music wasn't something they particularly enjoyed. Need more proof? In 2000, CD sales were up 8 percent, even with Napster usage at an almost all-time high. At the same time in 2001, CD sales were down 8 percent, but the RIAA's lawsuit had all but halted Napster usage. See the correlation?

    ---rhad

    --
    Slashdot needs to interview Natalie Portman.
  6. For those who don't know ... by pyramid+termite · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... Janis Ian had her first hit in 1967 with a controversial song about interracial dating, "Society's Child". She was a young teenager at the time.

    She released several albums on the Verve label in the 60s and gradually sank into obscurity. After signing with Columbia, she made a comeback during the mid-70s with the hit "At Seventeen". Again, she wasn't able to follow it up with another similar hit and sales gradually dwindled until she was dropped. Due to mismanagement and bad accounting she ended up with tax problems and eventually went broke.

    She's managed to keep herself going in the music biz in the last few years, although I have no idea what kind of music she's doing now.

    1. Re:For those who don't know ... by robkill · · Score: 5, Informative
      Her latest album is "God and the FBI." She spent close to 10 years using the FOIA to see the FBI files collected on her father. It turns out her father was branded a communist. Every 3 or 4 years they'd have to move because her father lost a teaching position. It turns out that the FBI would come by, ask a few questions, and then folks would get scared and fire him.

      She's one of the regular columnists for "Performing Songwriter" magazine. She and Christine Lavin have written several good commentaries on the music industry and how the Internet has helped independent singer-songwriters. And she's a big Science Fiction fan to boot!

      --
      DMCA - Chilling free speech since 1998.
  7. Some choice quotes by Olinator · · Score: 5, Interesting

    [T]he music industry had exactly the same response to the advent of reel-to-reel home tape recorders, cassettes, DATs, minidiscs, VHS, BETA, music videos ("Why buy the record when you can tape it?"), MTV, and a host of other technological advances designed to make the consumer's life easier and better. I know because I was there.

    The only reason they didn't react that way publicly to the advent of CDs was because they believed CD's were uncopyable. I was told this personally by a former head of Sony marketing, when they asked me to license Between the Lines in CD format at a reduced royalty rate. ("Because it's a brand new technology.")

    [...]

    You can't hear new music on radio these days; I live in Nashville, "Music City USA", and we have exactly one station willing to play a non-top-40 format. On a clear day, I can even tune it in. The situation's not much better in Los Angeles or New York. College stations are sometimes bolder, but their wattage is so low that most of us can't get them.

    [...]

    If the music industry had a shred of sense, they'd have addressed this problem 15 years ago, when people with websites were trying to obtain legitimate licenses for music online. Instead, the industry-wide attitude was It'll go away. That's the same attitude CBS Records had about rock 'n' roll when Mitch Miller was head of A&R. (And you wondered why they passed on The Beatles and The Rolling Stones.)

    [...]

    The industry has been complaining for years about the stranglehold the middle-man has on their dollars, yet they wish to do nothing to offend those middle-men. (BMG has a strict policy for artists buying their own CDs to sell at concerts - $11 per CD. They know very well that most of us lose money if we have to pay that much; the point is to keep the big record stores happy by ensuring sales go to them. What actually happens is no sales to us or the stores.) NARAS and RIAA are moaning about the little mom & pop stores being shoved out of business; no one worked harder to shove them out than our own industry, which greeted every new Tower or mega-music store with glee, and offered steep discounts to Target and WalMart et al for stocking CDs. The Internet has zero to do with stores closing and lowered sales.

    And for those of us with major label contracts who want some of our music available for free downloading? well, the record companies own our masters, our outtakes, even our demos, and they won't allow it. Furthermore, they own our voices for the duration of the contract, so we can't even post a live track for downloading!

    "You go, girl!"

    It's interesting to note that this is not someone who could be dismissed by an RIAA flack as a no-name musician whining because the Internet might get her recognition that she's not gotten from "The Industry" -- she's had nine Grammy nominations, and her music has been recorded by just about everybody at one time or another.

    Ole
  8. Re:Famous songwriter and artist? by eyegor · · Score: 4, Insightful


    That may be true. But her point about music downloads increasing sales (even for forgetable artists) is true.

    Most music out there is utter crap. I've been burned badly so many times by buying discs by highly-hyped, but untalented "artists" that I'm almost afraid to buy anything.

    Enter the Internet.

    Now I can preview music and give it a test drive. Do I find a lot of crap? Yep. And I don't buy the discs, nor do I continue to listen to it.

    BUT... I do find a fair amount of good stuff and do you know what? I actually BUY the disks. Really!!

    I have 20 - 30 CDs full of MP3s that I've downloaded from the 'net and about 1200 CDs that I've purchased from the store (approx 250 since I've been "stealing" music from the Internet).

    Are there people who just download the music and never buy a disc (effectivly stealing the music)?

    Yes..

    They need to pay for the music they listen to in order to reward the artist for producing it. Otherwise, why should the artists continue even trying?

    Things need to change. The record companies need to lighten up and people who download and listen to the music need to get some ethics and pay for what they use.

    My 2 cents.

    --

    Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
  9. How could you miss this one? by drew_kime · · Score: 4, Funny

    We'll turn into Microsoft if we're not careful

    Wow. Anti-RIAA and anti-Microsoft in eight words. The girl can write.

    --
    Nope, no sig
  10. I suggest a letter writing campaign... by Dark+Nexus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    No, not to the RIAA.

    No, not to Congress/Parliment/whatever your country has either.

    That's been done, and frankly, won't do any better now than it did then.

    Boycotts won't work well either. They'll just blame it on piracy anyway.

    No, I suggest letter writing to the ARTISTS.

    If you decided to buy a CD or go to a live show by [insert artist here] after sampling some of their music, but wouldn't have before, let them know! Most bands have websites, with ways to send email to them. Send one letting them know that they got MORE of your money thanks to your being exposed to them through free downloads.

    Maybe, just maybe, if enough people do that, then more artists will step up to argue against the RIAA claims that piracy is hurting artists.

    --
    Dark Nexus
    "Sanity is calming, but madness is more interesting."
  11. Re:Control by swm · · Score: 4, Insightful
    it's all about control

    This absolutely correct, and Ian seems to not quite get it

    If you think about it, the music industry should be rejoicing at this new technological advance! Here's a fool-proof way to deliver music to millions who might otherwise would never purchase a CD in a store...It's instantaneous, costs are minimal, shipping non-existant...a staggering vehicle for higher earnings and lower costs.
    All true, and if you think about it, you realize that this is why the music industry is terrified: if you have the internet, you don't need the record labels.

    Further discussion at How The Internet Will Make The Record Labels Evaporate .

  12. the point people keep missing by alizard · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Shutting down P2P and Internet Radio isn't about protecting artist royalties or even record label royalties.

    It is about control. The RIAA record labels want to close down any venue that is easily accessible to the public where the independent (as in unsigned by major record label) artist can upload her own music without having to go through a gatekeeper under record label control.

    The ability of RIAA record label suits to make a living depends on their being able to say "You can't make a living without us."

    With easily available CD on demand and band merchandise on demand, all a musician needs if his/her material is any good is exposure... a musician no longer needs record labels and record stores to sell CDs and T-shirts.

    The last choke point that allows RIAA labels a chance to make money off artists and the public is exposure to masses of people. Internet Radio and P2P allowed an easy way for the independent artist to get to the people.

    When people say "I bought CDs from bands I never heard of thanks to Napster, etc.", this doesn't make the RIAA want to keep P2P / Internet Radio open, their business is to make sure you only buy from RIAA artists... to find RIAA artists, turn on any Clear Channel radio station. Where an independent without a major promotion budget isn't going to be heard.