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Low Frequency Active Sonar Gains US Gov. Approval

burntout writes "According to bbc online the US government has finally approved the use of low frequency active sonar. Apparently the navy has been granted an exemption from the marine mammal protection act for this, which is apparently 'necessary because of new superquiet Chinese, Russian, and German subs'."

22 of 68 comments (clear)

  1. Germans? by nosferatu-man · · Score: 3, Funny

    We taught them a lesson, in 1918,
    and they've hardly bothered us since then. - tl

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    1. Re:Germans? by nosferatu-man · · Score: 2

      It's a quote from a Tom Lehrer song, actually. Maybe a bit oversubtle.

      'jfb

      --
      To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
  2. This is an overhyped issue... by duffbeer703 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Active sonar is only used in emergency situations.

    Using an active sonar array advertises your position to any other submarines in 30-90 nm radius.

    The most common use for active sonar is to acquire a definitive lock on a target after torpedoes have been launched.

    --
    Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
    1. Re:This is an overhyped issue... by heikkile · · Score: 5, Funny
      Using an active sonar array advertises your position
      to any other submarines in 30-90 nm radius

      Who cares! Once they are within a micrometer, or even a whole
      meter from you, you are toast anyway!

      --

      In Murphy We Turst

    2. Re:This is an overhyped issue... by Yunzil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Active sonar is only used in emergency situations

      Not entirely true. :)

      Sometimes it doesn't matter if you advertise your position. Active detective ranges are so much longer than passive detection ranges that sometimes it's possible to just ping like hell and hold the threat at standoff range until you are ready to kill them.

    3. Re:This is an overhyped issue... by gonar · · Score: 3, Informative

      actually, on normal targets passive detecion range is much greater, but less precise. you know where he is, but not quite precisely where.

      however, today's submarines are sooooo quiet, that they make less noise then the ocean background.

      active is great for very high precision location at relatively short ranges.

      if you are banging out active pings, your nice quiet enemy, just outside your active detection range knows where you are and can fairly easily maneuver around you.

      the counter tactic to this is a team of subs, some pinging and some passive, with the passive guys in the gaps trying to catch the sneaky bastards....

      --
      The difference between Theory and Practice is greater in Practice than in Theory.
    4. Re:This is an overhyped issue... by eyegor · · Score: 2

      That's true if you're on a sub, but not the case if you're a skimmer and your sole role is to drag an LFA array around.

      Also, as a sub, it's still best not to ping. If you do, it's to get a final range BEFORE you shoot. The torpedo will do a lot of pinging of it's own when it's closing on the target. If you're in the ball park with your firing solution, the torpedo will find it just fine.

      Something else to remember, you can be detected more than twice the distance than you can detect someone with active SONAR. Which is one reason we tagged the breakers OFF when we went on deployment.

      --

      Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
  3. Visual scan for marine mammals... by alwayslurking · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...how very sophisticated. Guess the Navy can add whale-watching trips to their recruitment literature now.

  4. re: overhyped issue by burntout · · Score: 4, Informative

    . . . good point DuffBeer; however, if you had read the article, you might have noticed that this is towed array sonar, based on ships. The issue here is not stealth, it is detection.

  5. Sonar and whale strandings by Peter+T+Ermit · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Though this issue is a bit overhyped, once in a while, the Navy does kill a few whales. For instance, in March, 2000, 17 beaked whales died due to getting battered with sonar. (Link to NOAA press release here.)

    1. Re:Sonar and whale strandings by JabberWokky · · Score: 5, Funny
      And the Army probably mauls a few dozen rabbits, groundhogs and skunks under tanks and troop carriers. The Air Force nukes its share of birds with high powered radar.

      And a van full of PETA demonstrators recently hit a deer while driving to some protest.

      --
      Evan

      --
      "$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
  6. Enemy by pagercam2 · · Score: 2

    The Chinese, Russian, and German haven't reallye been developed the swedish, and dutch submarines are the really quiet ones using sterling engines, but this limits them to shallow, costal waters. Active mode is rarely used in historical systems, but this system is much lower in which a strong transmitter is used at a distance and closer sensors hear the echo so there isn't much chance of detection. I'm not quite sure how one knows if this is harmful to marine life, a loud noise to a creature that depends on sound for communications and navigation can't be too happy about someone yelling in thier ear.

  7. 235 decibels or greater ! by UranusReallyHertz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Holy sheeet! Anyone know how much juice that must take? http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/lfa.htm The shallow-water acoustics problem has risen in importance due to the increased salience of regional conflicts where the US Navy may to encounter slow, diesel submarines close to shore. The shallow-water, slow submarine is significantly more difficult to detect and classify acoustically than the cold war threat, due to the complex propagation, high clutter, and low target Doppler. Effective sonar performance requires new processing algorithms which cannot be implemented on current Naval platforms due the high processing requirements. A Hybrid Digital/Optical Processor (HyDOP) is to demonstrate the feasibility of using embedded scalable high performance digital and optical processing to solve this problem. This requires application of computationally intensive algorithms which cannot be implemented in real time using conventional processors. A high-speed optical correlator being developed by the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) will act as a coprocessor to an Intel Paragon XP/S-25 computer.

    --
    Smoking is an expensive, slow, and unreliable method of suicide.
  8. War is good... by noxavior · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To provide excuses for any action. Destroying the world's most peaceful creatures because we want to kill each other is ironic and disgusting.

    --
    Karma:This parrot is dead! (and so is the joke.)
    1. Re:War is good... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2

      Um, a lot of whales are predatory, which isn't notably peaceful. (Actually, I think they're all technically carnivores, but I wouldn't call straining plankton from the water "violent," either. But killer whales, sperm whales, and at least a few others are fearsome predators.) I agree that we shouldn't wantonly kill them off, but the main reason they don't have weapons is that they don't have hands. If they did, I suspect we'd have found the ocean a much harder environment to exploit ...

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:War is good... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We aren't the only animals with hands, nor with big brains, but we're the only ones who have both hands and the brains to use our hands to develop much in the way of technology. (As one of the Leakeys pointed out, many other animals make tools; the critical distinction between us and them is that we _use tools to make tools_. After that, there are no limits.) But we're not the only violent animals, nor in fact are the only ones who fight wars -- read up on baboons some time.

      Look, I'm not defending killing whales, nor bombing wedding parties. But the idea that the rest of nature is gentle and peaceful and we're the only ones who destroy each other and/or our environment is romantic foolishness.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  9. Extremely sad by MrIcee · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This is on our front pages of todays paper here in Hawaii. This is a blow for the island and the marine creatures that surround it.

    Yes... it causes whales and dolphins to die. Much of the experiments were carried out in the water around Hawaii, thanks to the military idiots that abound here.

    And yes, they know that it cause havoc with the animals. It's sad, because whales travel thousands of miles each year to give birth to their babies off the coasts of our islands. Not only will this dissrupt their normal cycle of life, but also will drive them away (which also hurts our tourist industry as well as our scientific industries who try to study the whales).

    But, like everything else... our government has it's preverbal head up it's ass and only thinks of itself with it's MIGHT MAKES RIGHT mentality.

    I think personally, it is time for Hawaii to secceed the US... kick out the military, and bring back a balance to life on these beautiful islands.

    1. Re:Extremely sad by p3d0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can you imagine a sound so loud that it kills you? It's mindboggling. Not a nice way to die. I have heard estimates as high as 235 decibels. That's a hundred thousand times louder than pressing your ear up against a jumbo jet engine.

      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    2. Re:Extremely sad by MrIcee · · Score: 2
      Boy, what an intelligent statement. Just 60 fucking years ago you would have been invaded by the Japanese, had your women raped, children murdered, been beheaded during sword practice, etc. if it weren't for the U.S. military.

      And boy, nevermind the fact these young guys volunteer to sit on g-ddamn Navy ships/subs for months at a fucking time to defend your ass. God forbid we kill a couple of dolphins or whales to defend ourselves. Unless you're a Dalai Lama-type and brush insects out of your path so as not to step on them, you have no reason to whine.

      First of all, you moron, the main reason the islands were attacked was BECAUSE THE US MILITARY WAS HERE. Second, you moron, the US took over hawaii ILLEGALLY, and even this year the world court sided with the hawaiians on the issue. Thirdly, you moron, you can stick your GUN back in your pants. We don't need your fucked up american viewpoints - your *without the US you will die* mentality... that is EXACTLY the type of viewpoint that makes the US hated world wide.

      Finally, you moron, your fucking military bombs our lands and our waters... kills our fish. Your mainland corruption drains our resources and money from the islands. We do not need people with your mindset. So just stay on the mainland and play battleship in your little bathtub with your little toy gun.

      Aloha

    3. Re:Extremely sad by Vuarnet · · Score: 2

      How 'bout we all learn to live with reality, work hard and honestly, teach our children the same and to respect and honor their ancestor's culture (whatever it may be). And save the whales and dolphins.

      --
      Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
      Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
  10. Re:Fuck radar by Valdrax · · Score: 2

    Why don't we just destroy all subs and weapons and just get the fuck along ? It seems every day the US Army is looking for a fight and it's just pathetic.

    It's about time someone said it! I mean, really, we've put with the ruse long enough. It's no longer funny. We should just end all these shennanigans and get back to the peace, love, and well-being that was all of human history before the Illuminati talked everyone into starting up the Great Generational Gag of 1937. Come on, soon no one will be alive to remember that it was all just a big joke, and people will think things like hunger, famine, and disease were meant to be taken seriously or, even worse, were the natural order of human history!

    Let's just put an end to it all.

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  11. 230+ decibels by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 2
    Explosions and loud noises are fun, especially when they are far away, but the sea is not empty and water carries sound much beter and further than air.

    Though obviously half baked it's hardly overhyped. It's very different from past sonars. Did you look at the decibel level of the output? The frequencies are also the same the ones the whales actively uses. ie. their ears are best tuned to.

    Whales and many other large sea animals depend on having good ears / sonar to go on living. As an urbanized human you technically don't need your ears for survival, but having the sound equivalent of jet engines go off unexpectedly behind your ears would have adverse effect on your fitness. In a worst case, this will mung the ears of large groups of animals rendering them unfit for survival. In the best case it will drown out or interfere with their communication (mating and food finding) and lower their survival fitness.

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