Software for the Realtime 3D Modeler?

Milo_Mindbender asks: "I've been involved in doing a number of games and other realtime 3d apps and I always run into the same problem: the 3d modelers that most artists use (MAX, Maya, Softimage, Lightwave...etc) are all heavily biased towards doing non-realtime rendering using raytracing or some other technique. While they can be used to make models for realtime 3D hardware, a very large number of their features don't map well onto realtime 3D hardware. For example many of the procedural shaders used by these packages map very poorly to a hardware shader's abilities, and similarly, if you want to use a hardware shader on some polygons, most modelers give you no way to see the effect while modeling."

"There are other problems too: modelers that have no concept of polygon strips/fans or that make it very hard to avoid generating polygons that will never be seen (the inside surface of a pipe for example). Even if you have the target 3D hardware on the modeling machine, it's rare to have the modeling windows look anything like the finished product. I'm wondering if anyone has run across a good solution to this. Possiblly a modeling package more geared to hardware capabilities, or some way of adapting an existing modeler to make it more hardware friendly by blocking or modifying features that 3d hardware can't handle. It would seem such a package could be cheaper too, since it wouldn't have to support as many fancy features."

Comments

Not sure what you're looking for

[flewp]

Are you looking for a modeller that will render as you work in realtime, or have a gamelike renderer that will render out in real time?

It does sound like you're looking for something more in-tune with hardware realtime rendering, am I correct in thinking this?

Most programs have an OpenGL/D3D/etc realtime modelling mode, so I guess what I'm asking is, are you looking for something that can give you an accurate representation of what it will look like when rendered in game, using a card's built-in shaders? I guess I'm just getting confused on what you mean by mapping. Are you talking vertex/polygon level procedural mapping, or texture mapping, or what?

I'm also asking these questions so I can guage what a low-poly/gaming modeller is looking to accomplish. All my 3d renderings are done in trueSpace, using raytracing or a hybrid of radiosity/raytracing.

quake?

[GoatPigSheep]

nobody has converted quake into some sort of modelling program yet?

Which is why tools are so important...

[kbonin]

The problem is that there is far more money to be made selling expensive seats to well funded studios, movie houses, and advertising agencies then in selling to game companies. Most game companies are cheap, and full of people who are biased against anything not written in-house.

I write engines now, but I spent a good 10 years as lead programmer of tools groups at various game companies (I distributed the first public reverse-engineering of 3ds file format, I think for version 2, had fun explaining that to a room full of lawyers... :)

I'm still dealing with these issues today. My current employer is starting a major project (MMORPG), we spent a decent part of the last year researching art tools. Ended up picking Maya, as its got a great C++ API that exposes darn near everything, as well as a great C++'ish scripting language for the technically inclined artists to use. (Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in Maya, etc...)

The problem is that it takes years to tune a decent editor - I started out in CAD/CAM/CAE and even I know better than to try and editor unless I've got a few man years to dedicate to infrastructure.

Unless the budget absolutely cannot handle it, I'd recommend taking Max or Maya and extending them with your own tools. Maybe even make some of them open source, like Pierre Terdiman did with his Flexporter system for Max, which saves a good man-year of work on 3ds Max exporter work!

Here goes 2 comments part 1

[oliverthered]

I've had to do a couple of posts because the lameness filter killed the acii art. This is a very brief example, there's far to much for a /. post
And you'll have to do a veiw page source for the correct formatting!

Here's a simple 2d 4 wall world in ascii
\ /
--- \ /
| \
| \

I'll call the walls

\ = A
-- = B
/ = C
! = d

draw a line through the world along line A,
this PARTITIONS the world into two BINARY spaces. B and D are on one side(the space infront) of the partition and and C are on the other side(the space behind).

so we have a partial birnay tree

A
/ \
B+D C

each node can only represent one line through the space

The space infront has two walls in it, B and D. So partition the space infront of A down line B. This gives you D infront of line B and nothing behind line B

The binary space partition looks like this

A
/ \
B C
/ \
D []