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.NET for Apache
PerlGuy was so kind as to forward us the news about the joint Apache/Microsoft combined press conference scheduled from Wednesday at the OSCON Quote: "We will announce news related to the Apache web server and Microsoft's
development technology, .NET. This should be one of the biggest
announcements of the conference..."
The email he recieved: Covalent Technologies will be holding a press conference at the O'Reilly
Conference on Wednesday at 3:15 in suite 415 (during the afternoon break).
We will announce news related to the Apache web server and Microsoft's
development technology, .NET. This should be one of the biggest
announcements of the conference and an interesting follow up to Microsoft's
appearance last year at the show as well as to their general comments on
open source. Executives will be on hand to answer questions or to conduct
one-on-one interviews after the announcement.
At last we'll have Code Red ported to Linux!
Je t'aime Stéphanie
Before people get in a huff, we should mention that Apache has a history of integrating well with other technologies, those considered to be "evil" by some people, and others as well. I mean, look at Apache and Java. What about XML? Not to mention perl, PHP, TCL, and others.
.NET, just in a different way. Apache is wise to be as flexible and accomodating as possible - it's a good thing that it supports .NET, since it will most likely do it in a free way and expose more people to free software. On the other hand, it could always *not* support .NET, lose more market share to IIS, and generally piss people off who are using .NET technologies by wider corporate edict.
Java is not a warm and fuzzy free technology. I daresay it's every bit as proprietary as
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
The Mono project hasn't started work on an Apache module yet. But Mono's ASP.NET support is designed such that an Apache 2 module shouldn't have to be longer than around 80 lines of code. It's trivial when you have the right framwork, but we are still a few weeks away from that.
.NET framework on Windows and Apache 2 for Windows. No great deal.
If the guys who've done this have based their work on Mono, they certainly haven't informed the project. My educated guess is that this uses the
Microsoft actually validating apache as a competitor big enough to not crush them (right away) by closing their .NET framework only to IIS?
.NET deployment... ...or is (history repeating) a "good thing" only in the short run:
.NET stuff, let's learn .NET. God! it's so simple and easy, and object-oriented to the bones, I'll stay on that for all of my applications"
.NET2 to IIS-only, and since a lot of developpers moved or learned from scratch on .NET, they will migrate on IIS to continue or update their work.
.NET framework because they NEED people to USE it and gain acceptance... once they get that, they apply.monopoly(.NET);
Question is, is it good to see Apache embrassing a Microsoft framework so that it remains in the race of the
"Hey! Apache runs
1-2 years later Microsoft closes the
Usually, this scenario is typical of MS... so what would be different here? They have everything to gain right now to broaden their
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Microsoft needs maximum market penetration for .NET, otherwise the initiative fails. EVERYBODY has to play in this particular sandbox, or MS' dream of a services-based software market (with far better growth potential for a monopoly than a product-based market) is bust. IIS is *one product*, one that, in the grand scheme of things, it would be worth sacrificing if it meant .NET ubiquity. The majority of the web runs on Apache, therefore for Microsoft to not support .NET on Apache is to lose the majority of the web. QED.
.
What makes me curious is what platforms they'll support Apache on . .
This should be one of the biggest announcements of the conference
.NET? Do consumers really want "Web Services"?
Who really cares about this? Is anyone really all gung-ho to deploy
I'd rather run my office apps on my local box, and keep my data private, thank you.
On a side note Covalent spammed the hell out of OSCON attendees. I'm really dissapointed that O'Reilly gave out my *work* email address to them. I wasn't all that hot on Covalent products before, and now that they spammed me, I'll think twice before looking at them again.
i guess this would be the "embrace" part of "embrace and extend."
Gyrate Dot Org - "Where high-tech meets low-life"
But though the editors were lazy or Slashcode was buggy, I'll put in a couple of cents anyway.
.NET initiatives that are Free.
First of all, this is bad. Microsoft are not adopting the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" ideal. Apache dominates web servers. No doubt about it. To defeat this, Microsoft are going to do what they do best: embrace, extend, erradicate.
Based on Microsoft's history, any components they write for Apache will be closed source. If it is not entirely closed, the crutial parts will be. Microsoft are not interested in opening up their IP. Consider this as one of the many possible scenarios:
Following initial proof of concept, first stage deployments and so forth, Microsoft will begin the trouble. It will strangely cease to work. Apache will be to blame and sites will like have to apply patches from Microsoft or just deal with them. At the same time, IIS will lack these problems. They will work to create inroads into the *nix space with Win.NET and IIS.
Keep Microsoft out of open source. They have no business being here. Instead, Apache people should look at either of the two
Why bother.
Funny, those links don't seem to have much to do with Java scalability, they just shows how SQL Server scales much worse than any of the DBMSs mentioned.
.NET that Microsofts own technology might do better?
Of course, this was at least partly due to the crappy Microsoft JDBC driver (which they couldn't even get to stay up for 8 hours).
Why am I not surprised that in a test of the Microsoft JDBC driver vs
These studies just point out that you're better off going with a non-Microsoft solution.
-- Alastair
Alliances aren't always a good thing. When a stronger enemy is fighting many small opponents, if the strong guy can get a few of the small guys to take a break for a bit, that's really just a win for the bigger guy.
Microsoft using Apache instead of IIS. Now that's an interesting thought. Microsoft would have no issues with using Apache because it's license would allow them to lock up their changes without a problem. They write a module to let it use .net and *whamo* they look like open source advocates. As long as it's the right kind of open source.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Nah, the real announcement is that Microsoft has finally faced up to the insecurity of IIS and is discontinuing it in favor of Apache. They will provide (for a modest licensing fee, this is Microsoft) a tool to convert ASPs to JSPs.
(And if anyone really believes that, please contact me about this money in a Nigerian bank I need help with transferring...)
-- Alastair
Call me a heretic, but I think .net is a good thing. Not .net as made by Microsoft, but .net as an open standard - for example Mono. The concept of making Web services as easy to run and use as regular applications.
.net is simply recognizing the reality that the Internet is a dynamic medium, and it requires a new way of designing programs; a way that makes using the Web identical to using your computer locally. All of the examples I just gave can be done now with existing programming tools on any platform, but .net makes it much easier and more straightforward. It's nothing particularly difficult, and open source will be quick to replicate it.
.net for Apache support, Mono will be ready to take its place.
I don't want to have everything run on a server and use a dumb terminal. No sense making it even easier for Ashcroft to read my stuff than it already is. But Web services, by nature, are things that already use the Internet - things that might as well be hanging on a building in Times Square, for all Ashcroft cares.
To check stocks, I have to go to cnbc.com. It's an ugly interface. Why can't I double-click on a program that uses native widgets and displays that same information? To read and reply to Slashdot, I have to slashdot.org. It's uglier than a female dwarf (or KDE). Why can't I have Slashdot in a Win32-native interface? Think NNTP, but better-looking and more powerful.
To write a document, I open up AbiWord. If I'm writing a story about the stock market, why can't I just open up my stock market program, drag a box into my document, and have live numbers for the Dow? If I'm writing a story about AMD, why can't I just open up my Slashdot program, drag a box into my document, and have a link to the story inserted into my document; and why can't the person on the other end open the document, double-click my link, and have the Slashdot story opened in place - without needing a web browser?
As Miguel de Icaza said, you shouldn't just not use Mono because it's a copy of a MS product - after all, Linux itself is a copy of non-free UNIX from AT&T. If/when the time comes that Microsoft decides to cut off
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When the same App was ported to .NET, it could perform better under a heavier load then any other database.
Well, I would say that porting applications to a different code base for benchmarking is an exercise in futility. The fact of the matter is that both architectures are amenable to considerable optimization that would not be done in this sort of study, and the 700 - 900 range in page load performance does not represent a difference that any experienced person would consider meaningful.
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How is that a joint press conference? My guess is the Covalent folks have an Apache application server targeted to the .NET runtime, that integrates well with .NET and web services. Just like Apache Tomcat, etc., does for Java. Probably open-source.
Should I be scared, or concerned? I don't see why. It'll be another interesting technology to play with.
The core Apache foundation project is Apache, which works with well, most everything. mod_dtcl, mod_perl, mod_ruby and plenty of others. Contrary to what Java weenies would like people to think, the world is not, in fact, a choice between Unix+Java and Windows+.NET.
And given the way Sun keep jerking the free software world around (Oh, look, work on Tomcat and we'll make it the reference JSP engine! Oh, now we've changed our minds!), why would Apache care about keeping Sun happy more than they care about making Apache as compatible with as many platforms and technologies as possible?
Many of the good people have been working to make Apache a first-class citizen on Windows through the 1.3.x code, and achieved that in 2.0.x. I imagine those people would be very happy to see Microsoft recognise the quality of their work. And I doubt they give a shit about Sun or Java.
I don't think Microsoft knows what .Net is. But judging by the commercials, I'd say it's some kind of magic laserbeam that transmits information to and from handheld devices. You know, like IrDA, but with magic lasers.
SIGFEH
I'm too lazy to bring up the ./ article, but there were some benchmarks less than a year ago showing that for most applications (graphical I/O being the notable exception),
the latest IBM JIT JVM outperforms C++ using the MS VC++ compiler with the default optimizations.
I'll agree that sometimes the JVM takes forever to load, but the latest IBM JIT JVM continuously profiles your code and then does the equivalent of compiling the most commonly run parts with all of the optimizations turned on. I would guess that C++ does better relative to Java on non-x86 platforms, at least if you're using one of the older JITs. This is becuase the register-starved x86 looks pretty much like a stack-based machine in comparison to say the IBM POWER, HP PaRISC, or Sun SPARC CPU families. However, the latest IBM JIT probably does wonders to naorrow the gap on machines with 16 or more general purpose registers.
Copyright Violation:"theft, piracy"::Anti-Trust Violation:"thermonuclear price terrorism"<-Overly dramatic language.
Besides, I think a lot of people has mixed the concept of Web Services(WS) with .NET. WS is a interoperability framework, while .NET aims to cover all aspect of computing, while remains to use a single protocol for communication.
.NET is attempting to 'dominate the world'. However, this is pretty much the only way of doing things if MS wanted to do what they planned.
.NET, you must have .NET on both end.
.NET's stability doesn't count), .NET wins. For the openness, WS win, as it doesn't need to be bounded on a single vendor solution(again, theorotically).
People jokingly said, in this regard,
It might be too complicated and confusing to explain without an example: suppose we'd like to implement Remote Procedure Call over the Web, with WS both ends must have SOAP-rpc defined and implemented so as to call each other, but they don't need to implement WS from the same vendor(theorotically). With
To be honest, in term of robustness of both models(if
(I know rpc is a bad example as CORBRA seems to beat them hand down and it's a proven technology...well, the other story)
Actually, I'm willing to bet they release it for FreeBSD as well as windows. The MS source for the CLI,CLR (can't remember what the acro's mean) and other bits can compile itself for FreeBSD already here.
this is a Covalent thing not a apache thing.
you will have to pay $$$ for this
That has to be the lamest set of supposedly "anti-java" rants I've ever seen. I could probably find some random luser off the street to do better than that.
.. else if .." etc?) .java file per class (not counting inner classes) is a lot??
Anyway:
1) irrelevant
2) false (perhaps he's thinking of the JDK? false for that, too)
3) misguided
4) misguided and irrelevant (can't do that in C or C++ either, and what's wrong with "if
5) One
-- Alastair
I do not mean to troll you (look at my posting history), but I want to ask: What services do you mean? I don't ask for application specifics, company names, etc, I just hear a lot about web "services" and see very little except planning and idle banter. What would require .NET as long as you have server-side applications which meet the protocols in question? Isn't the point of SOAP that any client can get "services" from a server/app so-equipped? I think I'm missing something.
Would you mind sharing a bit? TIA...
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
1) Bullshit, you're focusing on desktops, which are a relatively small portion of the total number of computers out there. .Net runtime is still a much larger install (about 22 megs compared to 12-13) .Net has it.
2) SFW - the
3) GC isn't controversial, but very useful - I assume that's why
4) So you want to turn switch into syntactic sugar for if.. else if..? Sure, just stick to C# then.
5) Why is a small number of huge files more manageable than a large number of smaller files? If I am looking for the class MyClass, I'd rather find it fast in MyClass.java than having to hunt through source01.txt, source02.txt...
Plus, there is no requirement that Java source needs to reside in files at all. A compilation unit can just as well be a database record.
(Oh, look, work on Tomcat and we'll make it the reference JSP engine! Oh, now we've changed our minds!)
Sun no longer considers Tomcat to be the reference implmentation for Servlets and JSP? Well, someone should really tell the Jakarta people about that. Look, right on their Tomcat Site, they've got: "Tomcat is the servlet container that is used in the official Reference Implementation for the Java Servlet and JavaServer Pages technologies. The Java Servlet and JavaServer Pages specifications are developed by Sun under the Java Community Process." If that's not the case, they really should be told so they can change that blurb!
You are obviously a fucking moron since you repeat this blatant Microsoft FUD.
1. Microsoft singled out part of the Open Source in their usual divide and conquer strategy.
2. Microsoft loves BSD because it loves to "borrow" BSD code and incorporate it into its proprietary products. This saves Microsoft quite a bit of money and, many would argue, gives them better quality code too.
3. I see that you have swalloed the "viral" propaganda. Perhaps you can explain to me how exactly GPL "infects" stuff? Maybe you mean the fact that GPL does not permit you to take the code you don't own and incorporate it into your proprietary product? But the same is true of Microsoft's code! You can't take their "shared source" and use it in your product either. With GPL, at least, you can use, modify, and distribute the code all you want as long as you distribute derivative works under GPL. With Microsoft, you have no such option. Why, Microsoft is the virus! I also want to know how exactly GPL "touches" stuff. Oh what you actually mean is that GPL "touches" the code when the company willingly decides to use GPL code in their proprietary product.
If microsoft has never done anything to help any apache or open source effort, why did they fly a few of the zend people into redmond for a week, having them perf tune php on iis ?
Uhhm, because it helps Microsoft, not Open Source. PHP is the most widely used server-side scripting language. It sure helps to have it run well on your web server.
Why is there a mod_frontpage for apache that microsoft publishes ?
Because it helps them to sell Frontpage and install viral software on Unix.
Oh yeah, you assume a lot of stuff about microsoft that is wrong, which makes you kind of an idiot.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
I love this. "Some benchmarks less than a year ago." How about a citation for that? I'd certainly be interested.
These sorts of comparisons are notoriously difficult because they are often inherently apples-and-oranges comparisons. However, here are a few reasonable (and recent) citations that document a persistent performance gap between Java and C/C++.
@article{ fitzgerald00marmot, author = "Robert P. Fitzgerald and Todd B. Knoblock and Erik Ruf and Bjarne Steensgaard and David Tarditi", title = "Marmot: an optimizing compiler for Java", journal = "Software - Practice and Experience", volume = "30", number = "3", pages = "199-232", year = "2000 }
@inproceedings{ veldema01optimizing, author = "Ronald Veldema and Thilo Kielmann and Henri E. Bal", title = "Optimizing Java-Specific Overheads: Java at the Speed of C?", booktitle = "{HPCN} Europe", pages = "685-692", year = "2001"}
@article{ prechelt00empirical, author = "Lutz Prechelt", title = "An Empirical Comparison of Seven Programming Languages", journal = "IEEE Computer", volume = "33", number = "10", pages = "23-29", year = "2000" }