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NYC Subways Testing Flywheels
socolow writes "The New York Times (free registration required) has an article about the NYC subway system's use of flywheels to store the braking energy of trains approaching stations. Not only does this advance the development of flywheel energy storage, but it will help relieve a lot of the heat subways generate (always appreciated during the summer)."
Now if they just make the flywheel out of a superconductor, then not only will it store energy, but the train will be weightless!!!
Boeing, get on it!
Don't Bogart the fish sticks
sPh
Since the flywheels are just great big gyroscopes, what happens when the train makes a sharp turn?
A legparnasom tele van angolnaval.
Wired ran an article about the new flywheels a while ago.
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Unfortunately, it takes 45 minutes of winding for 4-5 seconds of run time.
I think the reason for not using regenerative braking is that it would essentially requirew the flywheel to be ON the train. This isnt necessaraly a bad thing. You could regenerativly brake INTO your on-board flywheel and then use the stored energy to get the train moving again (with a little help from the third rail).
They may not have wanted to implement it this way because it might have been easier to build a few flywheels into each station rather than build them into every train in the system. Also this way they can get the idea implemented quickly (install flywheels at stations) rather than have to wait many years while the trains get replaced slowly as they wear out and die.
If you read the article, you'd know: they can't put power right back into the third rail because the resistance of the rail is too high. And they can't put it into batteries because there aren't batteries big enough to solve the problem. So they use a flywheel.
Please read the article before posting, next time.
I still think my hamster could spin a wheel faster than some dumb fly.
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They are using regenerative braking. That's what the whole article is about, a new application of regenerative braking in a place that people don't usually associate with relatively new technologies.
Hmmm the heat has little to do with the electric motors, and much more to do with Air Conditioned Subway cars. The heat in the cars has to go somewhere so it (and some energy involved in moving it) goes out into the tunnels and the stations. Suposedly before A/C the cars were hot but the stations were cool(as one would expect for what is bassicaly a basement.)
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
The modifications to the trains are actually significant to support this, but it's about how the braking systems work and how the motor controllers work on the trains. There are a class of motor controllers that are not really compatible with regenerative braking, and they are fairly commonly used since they are cheaper than the others. The conversion to regenerative braking may involve replacing a fair bit of gear on the rolling stock. They were considering this kind of thing in San Diego, which is where I picked up lots of this trivia.
Many rail systems and streetcar systems have regenerative braking, but frequently they don't store the energy. What they do is have one unit braking while another is accellerating, so the excess power is in effect transferred via the wire to the other vehicle. Think of cable car systems where the guy at the top of the hill counterbalances the one at the bottom. This is hard to make work though, the timing issues being what they are.
My $.02
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Jack not name, jack job!
Or, as Robert Schmitt, another transit electrical official, put it, excitedly: "They're sitting here, saying: `Give it to me! Give it to me! Give it to me!'
Ok, this guy needs to get laid. Now.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
Save the planet. Vote NO on flywheels.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
and a million watts is a lot of power.
Let's hope those flywheels are enclosed in something pretty solid.
Storing that much energy is one thing. Accidentally releasing it is another. When I was a student at MIT there was a permanent display in a glass case in the hallway of the biology department showing a centrifuge rotor that exploded, just to remind everyone of what happens when something spins too fast.
Let's also hope there's something to muffle that 600 Hz whine (which is close to the peak of human hearing sensitivity).
And I thought the wheels on Boston's Green Line screeching when going around sharp turns was bad...
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Why not just use regenerative braking
I'm usually a little kinder than this, but you plainly don't know what regenerative braking actually is. It's a lot more than just a feature of your R/C car. The story is all about regenerative braking. Rather than using friction to convert kinetic energy to heat and getting rid of it, using the motor to convert it back to electrical energy. The flywheels are just the most efficient place to hold on to that energy until it's needed again. It's more efficient to store it near where it's generated, since a stopping train is likely to start again, from the place where it stopped, than to send it all along the system on the rail, where it will mostly be wasted in heating the third rail before it reaches a useful load.
The thing i found surprising about this story was learning that they weren't already doing something like this.
Right here A very good article (with illustrations) that tells how flywheels work and store energy. Pretty neat stuff.
Slow down, turbo.
Fly wheels have one big issue: very low tolerance for movement. A lot of time and money has gone into using flywheels for cars, but the biggest issue was always trying to keep the thing from crashing--it moves so much that it can't be held by the magnetic ball bearings and it touches the side of the container. This is really bad. Not only do you loose a lot of speed, but it increases the chance of an explosion of carbon-fiber.
Better to make big flywheels that are stationary and burried in a mountain of cement.
A speech...
The third rail is already highly charged. Trying to push power from a battery would be like trying to save on power bills by hooking a 9V battery w/ an AC Adaptor to the wall outlet - there's too much power there to push more back in.
Yeah, it's almost as ludricrous as putting solar panels on your roof and then trying to sell power back to the grid. Oh wait.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
http://web.mit.edu/charliew/www/centrifuge.html
IAAEE, so I'll hazard a guess. They say in the article that the 3rd rail uses 650V DC. For power distribution, this is a relatively low voltage. To minimize resistance losses, power is typically distributed at thousands of volts. To be able to easily convert voltages, you need AC, not DC so you can run it through a transformer.
I'll bet that they have high-voltage AC power distribution throughout the system, and they step it down to 650 V and rectify to DC it at frequent intervals along the tracks. The distance the power needs to run at low voltage along a high-resistance steel rail would never be very long, so losses are minimal. (I assume they use DC becuase it's easier to design train motors for DC, or something like that.)
The AC -> DC rectification is not reversible, however, so there would be no way for power generated by a train to get back into the main distribution grid, and the average distance the 650V DC would have to flow throught the 3rd rail to the next train would be too far to be economical.
(Of course, I could be wrong about all of this, since I don't really know anything about their system.)
any /. story where the bulk of the information is on a NYT-hosted page is useless to me
Why can't you just post without reading the articles - like everyone else?
Mmmm.. Donuts
clue me in please... why is the resistance such a problem, if the third rail is how they are powering the trains in the first place?
It's all tied together with social security.
Politicians are often heard saying something along the lines of
You've probably noticed that Social Security benefits are mostly received by old people.
You've probably also noticed that those old people move slowly. The reason they move more slowly than you or me and the reason they can't drive more than 20 mph under the speed limit is simply because they are encountering resistance.
Hope that clears it up.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
That's how the system works, yes. The MTA has 214 substations around the city, which are fed something between 11-27 kV AC, transformed to 400 V AC, and rectified to 600 V DC.
:)
It's only within the last ten years that they finally retired all of the old pre-solid-state rotary converters in the system - running power backwards through them would have actually worked.
The new cars actually have AC motors - the DC third rail powers a battery on board, I'm not sure exactly what the AC conversion tech is. There's still a couple thousand DC-motored cars riding the rails, so I'm not expecting to see the system switch over to AC distribution....