California Tracks Everyone Using Toll Transponders

obtuse writes "Direct monitoring of traffic sounds pretty cool, but some people don't want their toll transponders tracked. They aren't installing direct driver tracking for law enforcement now, but the collected data could be subpoenaed. Of course, anyone who didn't want to be tracked could just put it in the glovebox anyway, so they won't be catching clever felons or tracking real paranoiacs."

Comments

I can live with that.

[Skyshadow]

I don't have a big problem with toll records being accessible in criminal cases (aka, by subpeona). Many criminals *are* stupid, so if this helps catch them then I'm happy. Besides, I have no reasonable expectation of privacy on a bridge (which is why I try to keep the nose-picking to a minimum).

What I worry about it that leading to civil uses -- what if my wife's lawyer got records showing I was sneaking over the Golden Gate to visit my mistress (expensive booty call with the new tolls, BTW).

I wish there were some reasonable way to insure against a slippery slope. I would prefer to live in a country where it's easy to catch criminals without sliding into surveilling lawful citizens.

Re:Automatic tickets coming up soon

[Null_Packet]

Good point, but under California law this kind of speed enforcement is labeled a 'Speed Trap' and is expressley outlawed in Cali. The basic definition AFIAK is a speed trap uses two measuring devices at each end of a 'corridor', where your progress is timed and used to give you a ticket. In some states they used choppers and cessnas to stopwatch your progress between visible/plotted markers and a ground unit is dispatched to issue the ticket.

CA outtlaws this practice and requires for speeding tickets that the same office who clocked you is the same office you tickets you (with some slight variances). Worry less about the CHP and worry more about CalTrans' ability to fsck the data up and not build freeways in a timely manner.

They won't use it to issue tickets

[signe]

Quite simply, any jurisdiction that even has a fraction of a brain will not use an electronic toll system to issue tickets. If they do, people will stop using the electronic toll system. It's just that simple. The toll authority has just as much of an interest in having people use the electronic toll system as people do in using it to save time. More people using the electronic system means fewer people employed taking tolls and less traffic. They won't jeopardize that.

As far as tracking people using the transponders, I don't know that it's that bad a thing. Like they said, you can always avoid tracking by putting your transponder in a foil bag, and they're even going to provide them upon request (It's not a pain in the ass. I have two transponders, and they're only on the windshield when I am going through a tollbooth, because I have a convertible). That should show goodwill, at the very least. And California does have some of the worst traffic in the country. Any additional info on how it moves (or doesn't) is probably going to go a long way towards making it better.

-Todd

Re:This always bothered me

[jpmorgan]

In fact, France almost completely relies on correlating the times between toll stations to catch speeders. It's why when you're driving in France you see a lot of people with flashy cars at the side of the road eating lunch or talking for a bit just outside of the toll stations. =)

Why speed isn't tracked

[dutky]

I work for one of the two main ETC (Electronic Toll Collection) companies and there is a reason that the state and local agencies don't try to track speed using the toll records: they wound never be able to make the speeding tickets stick. There are basically three problems with trying to issue speeding tickets based on toll transponder data:

1. The date and time on the toll transactions are not very exact. We try to keep all the computers in the lanes synchronized, but we don't do that great a job of it. If speeding tickets were issued to clients based on the computed travel time between entry and exit, the clients could simply claim that the entry and exit times weren't correct (and they'd be right).
   
   
2. The toll tag doesn't tell us anything about who was driving the car, or, for that matter, what car was being driven (unless there is a violation in the toll lane itself, in which case we take a picture of the back bumper, so we can identify the vehicle and license plate. We still can't tell who was driving).
   

   With the red light cameras, the ticket is assessed against the vehicle (like a parking ticket) rather than against the driver's license (as with most speeding tickets) and the red light cameras get some proof that the ticketed vehicle was involved. With a calculated speeding ticket, however, there is no such proof. Again, the accused could simply say that neither they, nor their car, was on the road at that time, and there'd be no way to disprove it.
   
   

3. Finally, local agencies really don't want to piss of their clients. The reason for using the toll tags is to both increase collected toll revenue (there are lots of ways to lose toll revenue when cash is involved) and to better control traffic. If you penalize people for using the toll tags, you lose the ability to do the stuff you really want to do.
   

There is one other technical issue with trying to issue speeding tickets based on ETC data: most ETC systems don't collect enough data to make the calculation.

There are, basically, two types of toll facilities: boundry systems, where you get charged a toll each time you cross a boundry, and closed-loop systems, where you get charged based on the length of travel in the toll system. You can only calculate speed in a closed loop system, when both your entry and exit are recorded. Many toll systems are only boundry systems.

Even on a closed loop system, you can only calculate the average speed in the system. Under heavy traffic conditions, the average speed is likely never to exceed the posted speed limit! (this is the sad truth about speeding: it rarely benefits the speed but, occasionally, it is a great harm to an innocent bystander) You can pretty easily wipe out the extra time you gained by speeding while waiting to at the exit toll plaza.

Note, some agencies do issue fines for speeding thorugh the toll lanes, but that is a safety issue. None of the agencies that we work with issue actual speeding tickets based on speed in the toll lane. Also, many of the agencies maintain a constant police presence at the toll plazas, in order to go after violators. This was true even before there were ETC systems.

The ETC tags are pretty good for collecting information on what happens at the toll plazas. We can even get a fair amount of agregate information about the entire toll facility itself, based on plaza activity. But it is very difficult to extract information about individuals based on ETC data. The agencies seem to have a pretty good understanding of what the ETC data is good for and what legal limitations they are under.

One example to illustrate this point: Some of the original ETC installations took pictures of violators from in front of the vehicle, including a picture of the driver and passenger in the front seat. Now, however, we only take pictures of the front and rear bumpers, specifically avoiding either front or rear windshield.

The reason is a legal one. Early on in the history of ETC systems a law suit was brought against one of the local agencies because a driver had violated the toll lane and had his picture taken. The violation notice was mailed to his house, where it was opened by his wife. His wife was quite upset to find a picture of her husband and a strange woman driving in his car in the middle of the day!

The local agencies are now prevented, legally, from invading a driver's privacy by photographing the driver or passengers of a vehicle passing thorugh an ETC system. (We still get some interesting pictures, but only when the driver's have gone out of their way to make themselves visible to the lane cameras)