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A Look Into National ID Cards

mr.buddylee writes "Last month Slashdot reported a Popular Science story on your privacy. This month the magazine has a couple different articles about the future of security after the attacks on 9/11. Included is a very interesting read on National ID Cards which looks at possible technologies integrated into the card. For instance, how would you like a memory strip containing a digitized image of your fingerprints, your photo, your medical history and flight history stored in your wallet? All secured with what could be a less than secure Smart Card."

12 of 259 comments (clear)

  1. Homeland Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Does the term "Homeland Security" creep anyone else out? It is reminiscence of German Nazis / Russian Communists to me.

    Your papers please.

    1. Re:Homeland Security by ericman31 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just think about this, KGB stands for (translated to English) Committee for State Security. It's forerunner was the NKVD: People's Commissariat For Internal Affairs. In Nazi Germany you had the RSHA, Reich Main Security Office, which was the authority for the Gestapo, SicherHeitsDienst (Security Police), Criminal Police and Foreign Intelligence Service. It's not hard to imagine either of those countries having a Department of Homeland Security, especially when you consider that this Dept. will have authority over any Federal dept involved in protecting the mainland USA (FBI, NSA, Treasury, Justice, ATF, DEA, Border Patrol, Customs Service, US Marshals, Secret Service).

      --
      In my universe I'm perfectly normal, it's not my fault you don't live in my universe.
    2. Re:Homeland Security by cosmosis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, indeed. Never in our 225 year history has there ever been such a phrase used in our venacular - I find the eerie 'Homeland' very close to 'Fatherland' more than a coincidence and just downright creepy. Along with this 'Homeland' we are getting everything that was instituted in Nazi Germany, only alarmningly its happening more than twice as fast.

      I find the following quote sadly ironic:

      Two recent political leaders allegedly had this
      nefarious habit (cocaine).

      Both came to power after dubious elections, by
      non-electorial and irregular methods.

      Both nations immediately experienced attacks on famous
      public buildings.

      Both blamed an ethnic minority before forensics had
      any evidence.

      Both led "witch-hunts" against the accused minority.

      Both suspended civil liberties "temporarily."

      Both put the citizenry under surveillance.

      Both maintained secret and clandestine governments.

      Both created a new agency for domestic security - one
      for the Fatherland and the other for the Homeland.

      Both enlisted members of the citizenry to spy on their
      neighbors. see http://citizencorps.gov/tips.html

      Both launched wars against most of the world.

      One had a funny mustache. Can you name the other one?

    3. Re:Homeland Security by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I guessed my civics classes where full of shit when they described our system of governance as a Republic, with a weak central government.

      In the Constitution v1.0 the United States was a federation of smaller contries (States) that United (United) for, amoung other reasons, mutual defense and to promote a common good. Several states (my home state Pennsylvania for instance) is actually a Commonwealth. Our state constitution and legal traditions trump the Federal system when the two do not dovetail.

      The Federal Government was constructed to be weak and fragmented so that the States could decide how best to govern their citizenry. The system has worked, IMHO, quite well for 225 years.

      When we speak of a Homeland, exactly whose home are we referring to? The culture of traditions of Texas are quite different from California, which in turn is radically different that Minnesota, and a far shot from Pennsylvania.

      People complain about how little gets done in congress, and how little the president is actually allowed to do. That is by design.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    4. Re:Homeland Security by joshki · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I find it just plain wrong. Point by point rebuttal follows:

      Two recent political leaders allegedly had this nefarious habit (cocaine).

      Allegedly is a key word here -- I'm glad you added it.

      Both came to power after dubious elections, by non-electorial and irregular methods.

      You call the Supreme Court of the United States, the final authority on law and order in this country "irregular means?" When something is as close as the election in Florida was, there's not much choice but to get the Supreme Court involved. Do you have a better solution? They made the right call, and many "recounts" since bear that fact out, whether you like the results of it or not.

      Both nations immediately experienced attacks on famous public buildings.

      So what?

      Both blamed an ethnic minority before forensics had any evidence.

      I suspect the NSA and CIA knew who did it within minutes - it wasn't a hard call. They had all the information, and when you know what you're looking for, it's very easy to find it. Their only failing was in not processing all that information prior to September 11th.

      Both led "witch-hunts" against the accused minority.

      No - looking for terrorists does not, in my book, qualify as a witch hunt.

      Both suspended civil liberties "temporarily."

      So did Abraham Lincoln and others. What's your point? It may not have always been the best thing to do -- but it is a power the executive branch has in war time. I know we don't have a "declared" war -- that's only because there's not a well defined entity to declare war on.

      Both put the citizenry under surveillance.

      We've been under surveillance for the last 60 years. The NSA was formed in the forties - you really think they've never spied on anyone before? Now you hear about it more - that's the only difference.

      Both maintained secret and clandestine governments.

      Sure... Right... The Illuminati are really in power in the US, right?

      Both created a new agency for domestic security - one for the Fatherland and the other for the Homeland.

      So?

      Both enlisted members of the citizenry to spy on their neighbors. see http://citizencorps.gov/tips.html

      You probably have a problem with Neighborhood Watch too, right?

      Both launched wars against most of the world. One had a funny mustache. Can you name the other one?

      Umm... Had to think about this for a bit - Does the Taliban rule "most of the world?" Maybe I missed a late breaking news flash or something....

      I gather you must be talking about our President by the election bit, but I think you may want to check your facts -- they don't really jive.

      --
      I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
    5. Re:Homeland Security by jsburke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > So?

      So, I find the comparison between our government and Nazi Germany offensive as well, but the point remains that the current administration has sacrificed liberty in favor of safety.

      Instead of considering our system infallible and just saying "So?" all the time, we should be self-critical. Maybe detaining people (some of them citizens) for an indeterminate period of time is wrong. Maybe creating completely opaque governmental agencies is wrong. If you're too defensive, you'll never even consider these things.

    6. Re:Homeland Security by BlueFashoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You call the Supreme Court of the United States, the final authority on law and order in this country "irregular means?" When something is as close as the election in Florida was, there's not much choice but to get the Supreme Court involved. Do you have a better solution? They made the right call, and many "recounts" since bear that fact out, whether you like the results of it or not.

      Last time I checked, the Supreme Court declaring the winner of the Presidential election was highly irregular. In fact, it has never happened before, and I hope it never happens again. Better solution? How about we all go to the poles again?

      Umm... Had to think about this for a bit - Does the Taliban rule "most of the world?" Maybe I missed a late breaking news flash or something....

      No, but we do have troops all over the world. We appear to be involved in some conflict around the world just about all the time, and America has been for last 20 years. Do you remember the "axis of evil" rhetoric? Gulf War, Bosnia, Somalia? Troops in the Phillipines?

      Both maintained secret and clandestine governments.

      Sure... Right... The Illuminati are really in power in the US, right?


      Don't you remember the news reports about the shadow government that was revealed shortly after September 11th? From CNN

      Both led "witch-hunts" against the accused minority.

      No - looking for terrorists does not, in my book, qualify as a witch hunt.


      No, but arresting thousands of people does in most people's books. Don't forget many of these people were not charged with anyhting.

      --
      Nice Marmot
  2. Re:Ok ok, here is why I WANT a national ID card... by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the problem is, why do you need to show your ID to a police officer?

    But what happens when you have to show it everyplace you go? what happens if you change a pattern of behaviour and it sets of a red flag and suddenly your being investigated?

    This sort of stuff happens in russia. Back during the cold war, the USSR would do this, and that was w/o computers.

    eyeballs change with time. Plus the same way you would fake an eyeball, is the sameway you would fake a thumb print, by changing the data on the card.

    We, are a country of Independent states, with, what is supposed to be, very specific guidlines on what the feder government can do. Are fore-fathers knew that a central government that controls everything is bad for personal freedom.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  3. Re:Ok ok, here is why I WANT a national ID card... by GlassUser · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do we need to have a national ID? Why not just a federal minimum standard for ID cards, like data field locations, orientation, picture type, etc?

  4. People are too hung up on the physical card. by -tji · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whether the information is on the physical card makes no difference. In fact, most likely you would not want to store much information on the card. Only the basic: name, address, physical characteristics, digitized picture, and that sort should be stored on the card. Just enough to make it roughly equivalent to a current ID, but a bit stronger.

    For any effective system, the DB should be centrally managed. Both for revocation of ID's, and for security of the sensitive content.

    The card has the person's private key, stored in a physically secure chip. That key can be authenticated against the government's issuing authority (as can the validity of the data on the card).

    Then, data can be accessed from the central DB, according to the privileges allowed the requestor of the data, on the authority of the cardholder.

    There are obvious security / privacy concerns. Particularly if the entity you fear abuse from the most is the government. But, it has the potential to offer a lot more privacy and security than current completely insecure systems.

  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. Re:Ok ok, here is why I WANT a national ID card... by mesocyclone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is... having a national ID does not lead to the other effects that you mentioned!

    What happens when you have to show it everyplace? What happened was that *something else* changed, not the existence of a national ID, but a more significant survillance.

    In other words, you take what *may* be a perfectly reasonable measure for *personal security* (it might greatly reduce identity theft) and conflate it with police state behavior and then use that to condemn the technological measure.

    Besides, we already have a national ID card in the US. It is called your drivers' license. Oops... it isn't national. BUT... that problem IMHO hurts the citizenry more than having a national one! It allows all sorts of fraud, because of its lack of standardization. And... it doesn't protect you one bit unless you are a criminal... because all of those drivers licenses are in the same database (or accessible through the same switch) just like a national ID owuld be.

    Let's not get too knee-jerk about security measures. Some are important. Furthermore, we are in a new age - where a single individual, through technology, may be more dangerous than an entire military fleet or division was in the past. In a world like we now live in, we may need different security measures than we have had in the past.

    The key to avoiding totalitarianism is not simply attacking every change in policing and security techniques. It is in fighting those which have no value, and more importantly, it is in fighting those who would actually engage in totalitarian practices.

    The ID isn't the problem. Someone who would track innocent people for nefarious purposes is the problem. Prevent the latter, not the former. P

    --

    The only good weather is bad weather.