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Want Freedom?

Xenopax writes "According to this story on the Sacramento Bee Americans are now more willing to throw away their first amendment rights for the false feeling of security than ever before. In fact many believe that the First amendment goes too far with its protection and think we should allow monitoring of religious groups for national security. Also many people believe the media shouldn't be allowed to question the government in times of war. One has to wonder if anyone cares about their constitutional rights any more, or if everyone would be happier living in 1984." The study is conducted by the Freedom Forum every year and is available for download.

16 of 974 comments (clear)

  1. One of my favourite quotes... by Robber+Baron · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar. - Julius Caesar

    --

    You're using her as bait, Master!

    1. Re:One of my favourite quotes... by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The United States has not had real conflict in its borders since the mid 19th century - even 9/11 wasn't a real war at home in anyway comparable to anything the rest of the world has had to deal with for most of the 20th century. In light of that fact, it wasn't surprising that a rhetoric of a free society was able to develop. In light of the love of comfort and security that the American populace evinces, I sometimes think that if it faced the sorts of turmoil that Europe, Asia, Africa, and Latin America confronted, it would be willing to create a society far less free than many of the above in order to defend those comforts. The luxury of freedom apparently ranks below other luxuries.

    2. Re:One of my favourite quotes... by rcw-home · · Score: 5, Informative

      Great quote. I just wish we knew who said it. It's a fake.

    3. Re:One of my favourite quotes... by guanxi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The United States has not had real conflict in its borders since the mid 19th century ... In light of that fact, it wasn't surprising that a rhetoric of a free society was able to develop.


      That rhetoric developed in the 18th and 19th centuries, mostly during wars.


      During the Revolutionary War (1776), with the most powerful navy in the world anchored in NY harbor (the British), Jefferson wrote,

      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, overnments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ...


      The First Amendment, the subject of this article, was writting ~1790, not during war but not exactly a time of peace and harmony.


      During the Civil War, in the mid-18th century, at perhaps the lowest, most dangerous moment in our nations history (the Battle of Gettysburg), Lincoln said,

      ... our fathers brought forth upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. ... from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion; that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain; that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that this government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from this earth.


      Makes us look like wusses, throwing it all away in the face of the relatively very minor threats we face in 2002.

    4. Re:One of my favourite quotes... by JabberWokky · · Score: 5, Insightful
      he did, in fact, suspend the right of habeas corpus and otherwise curtailed a number of civil liberties in the exercise of the war.

      Yes, but we were at War - an official declaration had been made. We are not currently at war, and any rights being suspended now are being suspended indefinately. A citizen of the US should be able to plan out, including diagrams and timetables, how to blow up the WTC. Many have, as a matter of fact, and published the results, both in fiction form and essay form in underground magazines. Should the FBI follow the latter? Sure. Should they arrest them? No.

      However, when war is declared, an act of Congress which can be temporarily enacted by the president, all bets are off. Normal rights are suspended, and the nation enters a state of martial law, with curfews, search and seizue laws being rewritten, etc. Do I have a problem with this? No. It's the nature of the situation. But it will end and things will be reverted back to full liberties and rights when the war ends.

      The problem is, there is no declaration of war - just a removal of rights with no endpoint in sight. That's what upsets quite a few people about this situation. Wartime restriction of rights is one thing, removing rights for a nebulous, never ending situation sounds a little like 1984 and a lot like Joe McCarthy's witchhunts.

      --
      Evan (no reference)

      --
      "$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
  2. Franklin said: by YahoKa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Trade freedom for security, and you'll get neither. If only people would understand.

  3. "I wasn't using my civil liberties, anyway" by pivo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Bumper sticker suggested by a friend of mine. Says it all, really.

  4. Well, I guess that's how Fascism takes root.... by vkg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.

    - Martin Niemöller

    Let me say this clearly: Bush sucks. He's a dangerous, arrogant man who's brother stole the election for him, and who's flushing our democracy down the toilet as fast as we will let him.

    Unanswered Questions about 9/11

  5. With apologies to Jello Biafra... by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Insightful
    (With apologies to Jello Biafra's 1990 spoken word piece)

    We interupt your surfing session with a special bulletin:

    The Internet is now under martial law. All constitutional rights have been suspended. Stay in your homes! Do not attempt to contact loved ones, science fiction authors, or software developers.

    SHUT UP!

    Do not attempt to think, or depresion may occur. Stay in your homes. Curfew is at 7 pm sharp after work. Anyone transferring content on ports other than those allowed by their subdivision router - will - be - shot.

    (Remain calm.)

    Do not panic. Your neighborhood Digital Rights Inspector will be around to collect access logs in the morning. Anyone caught interfering with the collection of access logs - will - be - shot.

    Stay in your homes! Remain calm! The number one enemy of progress is questions! The security of Hollywood's business model is more important that individual will!

    (All sports broadcasts will proceed as normal.)

    No more than two people may discuss programming techniques without permission! Write only the code prescribed by your boss or supervisor!

    SHUT UP!
    BE HAPPY!
    Obey all orders without question!

    The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory!

    BE HAPPY!

    At last, everything is done for you...

  6. Socialism is all that works for information by HanzoSan · · Score: 5, Insightful


    And we are becoming more and more an information based economy.

    True Capitalism couldnt work in the real world just like true Socialism cant work. Theres a reason we are a mixture of both, because this is the only thing that could work.

    Without public schools, police, government, etc we'd have complete chaos because the people in this country arent intelligent enough, arent responsible enough, and they arent mature enough to successfully govern themselves.

    Greed helps everyone? Thats not even logical, Greed only helps you, it doesnt always have to harm everyone else, but it only helps YOU.

    Greed helps you. Depending on how you make your money decides how many people you help or harm.

    I could say Socialism helps everyone too, you go to the police when you need them, you depend on the military to defend you from al qaeda, without socialism you wouldnt even have the internet, we would have never gone to the moon, we wouldnt have big industries.

    Look, pure capitlaism can never work, its a pipe dream, pure socialism most likely can never work either, the best we can do is have a mixture of both, as the economy becomes less labor based and more information based, and we dont have to work as hard, we'll become more socialist, progression forces socialism because you cant sell something when theres unlimited amounts of it.

    Capitalism if it was pure, it could work if it were 100 percent fair capitalism, this means capitalism without globalism, this means forcing companies to raise the minimum wage they pay their workers along with the amount of money the company brings in, meaning dynamic salary which increases when companies do good and decreases when they do bad, equal salary for everyone in the company this means the CEO shouldnt make billions and everyone else thousands unless the CEO actually is working the hardest and has been working there the longest.

    Enron and Worldcom situations should not be tolerated at all, a person should go to jail for life and their assets removed from them.

    Globalism cannot work in pure Capitalism because Capitalism is all about small businesses not big businesses, big businesses are like governments and we dont need this.

    No tax? Theres always going to be a tax because people always have to pool their money together to pay for say military forces or hospitals, however by making paying the tax a choice such as a donation you could still have pure capitalism while increasing freedom.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    1. Re:Socialism is all that works for information by Tosta+Dojen · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Without public schools, police, government, etc we'd have complete chaos because the people in this country arent intelligent enough, arent responsible enough, and they arent mature enough to successfully govern themselves.

      That is a typical elitist approach to government. The basic premise of the government is that it is one of the people. Your argument against capitalism doesn't even make sense. Capitalism and socialism are economic systems, while the government services you cite are not economic in nature. Governments exist to provide at least a few basic services, among which are protection from invasion and law enforcement, for which the military and police are required. Using these entities as a "proof" that government is socialist is absurd; by your argument every government is socialist in nature. (Which, I suppose, was your intention all along).

      Capitalism if it was pure, it could work if it were 100 percent fair capitalism, this means capitalism without globalism, this means forcing companies to raise the minimum wage they pay their workers along with the amount of money the company brings in, meaning dynamic salary which increases when companies do good and decreases when they do bad, equal salary for everyone in the company this means the CEO shouldnt make billions and everyone else thousands unless the CEO actually is working the hardest and has been working there the longest.

      I don't know where you get this at all. Actually, I do; this is pure Marxist philosophy where Labor = Profit = Worth. No amount of work on a mud pie is going to increase its value. You would certainly refuse to pay $100 for a mud pie that I worked on for 20 hours, and you would certainly complain if you, as, let's say, a computer technician, made the same wage as the unskilled laborer handing out flyers on the street corner. There is more demand for higher skills, which makes them more valuable. If not, why bother going to get an education? You'll be making the same as everybody else anyway.

      Your run-on sentence even contradicts itself in the middle: equal salary for everyone in the company...unless the CEO is actually working the hardest. Well, duh. The people who work harder and who are in demand are worth more. That's capitalism.

      Enron and Worldcom situations should not be tolerated at all

      Here I agree completely. I am all for minimal government involvement in business, but law enforcement should be ever present, which, in this case, means prosecution of fraud.

      No tax? Theres always going to be a tax because people always have to pool their money together to pay for say military forces or hospitals, however by making paying the tax a choice such as a donation you could still have pure capitalism while increasing freedom.

      I agree with the necessity of taxation as well. Making the tax optional is an interesting idea, but doomed to failure because too many will exploit the system. However, taxation for military and law enforcement do not make the system socialist because they are not economic in nature; they are part of the basic function of government.

      --

      I have a strong belief in the Second Amendment.

  7. The Constitution doesn't need amending by reimero · · Score: 5, Interesting
    One thing I find interesting in all this discussion of rights and freedoms is really how much we assume is constitutionally guaranteed versus what the Constitution actually says. For instance, here is the First Amendment in its entirety:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    From the above, it has been inferred that any kind of prayer in public schools is unconstitutional, that putting the 10 Commandments on public property is unconstitutional, that pr0n is legal, that a woman has the right to privacy and, consequently, the right to terminate pregnancy, that public libraries may not filter web sites, and so on and so forth.

    The point I'm making is that we have become accustomed to reading an awful lot into that one small amendment. As a student of political science, however, I find it both amusing and disturbing that the first five words of the amendment are the ones most frequently ignored: "Congress shall pass no law..."

    Taken literally (and as the Founding Fathers intended!) this means that most of these freedoms we take for granted were never intended to be freedoms at the level they are, but rather issues left to the individual states!

    I don't know exactly what that means for us today, but it is food for thought.
    --

    ----------

    Something clever
  8. Has anyone noticed... by paladin_tom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That on average, citizens of countries with more freedom tend to be much safer than citizens of countries with less?

    Think of the world's non-democratic countries, like Iraq, or Argentina under the fascists. Are the people there safe? NO! People are taken from their homes in the middle of the night, imprisoned, tortured, and killed. Why? Because people arent' free to question and criticise the government. Because people either believe that their government cannot be opposed, or that opposing it would weaken their country.

    Your freedom doesn't harm your safety. It guarantees it. Freedom exists to protect the individual's right to life, liberty, and security of person.

    And as soon as you try to trade your freedom for safety, you will find that you've lost them both.

    --
    #define sig "Every social system runs on the people's belief in it."
  9. Re:Freedom and the USA by sacrilicious · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's not that we *invented* freedom, it's just that we were first to the patent office with it. Now, a la Fraunhofer, we're just waiting for the democracy standard to catch on; once it's really rolling, we're going to spring MAJOR licensing fees on all countries that want to continue being democratic.

    .

    --
    - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
  10. Your rights won't be taken away by guanxi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These are inalienable rights, not privileges. The question is whether you choose to excercise them.

    The state can't give you free speech, and the state can't take it away. You're born with it, like your eyes, like your ears. Like old Campbell said, 'Freedom is something you assume. Then you wait for someone to try to take it away from you. The degree to which you resist is the degree to which you are free.' - Utah Phillips

  11. Very scary. by Maul · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If this is not a skewed servey, as some might suggest, it is very scary. It would be scary to me if 1/10 or 2/10 would support any restriction to the first ammendment.

    It is very scary to me that even more people in this survey think that government criticism should be prohibited.

    It also sickens me that there are plenty of people who think that the government should be able to spy on religious practices. People think that their religion will be safe because they aren't muslim. They think: "Only muslims are terrorists, after all."

    I have news for these ignorant people. Every major religion has terrorist groups associated with it. This includes ultra-right-wing psuedo-christian groups who think it is okay blow up abortion clinics. This includes the IRA. This even includes some fringe Jewish groups who plan mosque bombings.

    The government WILL eventually use groups like these as an excuse to spy on everybody's church if given the opportunity.

    You have to stand up for our rights, period. When the government starts raiding mosques routinely, don't just think "Oh, they're just going after the muslims. Everyone knows that only muslims are terrorists, so won't affect me." It will.

    It would also help to get your ass up on election day and go vote.

    --

    "You spoony bard!" -Tellah