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Patents for the Little People?
_ph1ux_ asks: "I have an idea that i would like to patent. I have called several patent attorney's in the San Francisco Bay Area and inquired about the costs associated with doing a patent search and filing. I was quoted a flat fee for the search by some, ranges by others - and some more sound sounding advice from others. Some attorney's want $450 for the search and a range of $3-6,000 for the filing - with up to six months before they are ready to just file the application for you.
I have been researching on USPTO website to see if there are any pre-existing patents that cover my idea now for several days, and so far have found none. In the past I was able to quickly locate existing patents that thwarted my previous patent attempts - so this time it looks promising. My personal feelings for attorneys and lawyers aside - I want to know what have other slashdotters done with regards to pursuing patents, specifically if it is at all possible for an IANAL to successfully apply for a patent (cheaply)? Can you tell me what other avenues there are for me online or otherwise, while not giving away a large stake in my invention?"
Wow, I didn't realise that it costs thousands of dollars to check out a patent. So what do those guys who make "joke" patents do, like the guy who patented how to sit on a swing, or the patent on how to tie your shoelaces and crap like that, do people really spend $5000 just to show that the Patent Office misses daft patent applications ? Presumeably *they* (the silly patent people) can do it cheaply ?
A patent prosecutor is not a patent attorney. It's somenone who has experience with the patenting process and can help you with the whole filing procedure (including proper redaction of description, drawings, claims, citation of prior and related art, etc.), and followup process after filing.
Their fees are usually much cheaper than attorney fees, and you don't need an attorney unless (until) you litigate.
As for everyone you hire, check for their background and experience - the claims in particular require very careful writing.
Hope this help
This actually doesnt work, but cant hurt. It is a myth used for movie scripts. One of the best ways to start is to get a bound notebook and start writing everything down in ink, NOT pencil. Cut and paste (literally) other pertinent info, and have the bottoms of each page signed by 2 people who arent family, but are fairly knowledgable about what they're witnessing... dates are important too. Lots more stuff... but I dont rememeber. Hope that helps.
Oleg
Maybe a little bit off-topic, but is there some way to "protect" an idea from being patented other than a patent? I mean like a GPL for patents (yes, I know copyright and patents are quite different). I might come up with something I think is a good idea but want all people to be able to use it for their own needs without restricting others. Again, something like the GPL for copyrights.
/. but I was too lazy to search for it, sorry...)
(I suspect this has been asked before at
heh..your being a future lawyer does make your post irrelevent, as a future chef i could say 'don't cook yourself, always eat out' and sure that might be sound advice fore the realization that home cooking is some of the best and the only true way to connect with your food. By scratching the backs of your fellow lawyers, you irrelevate your own point.
Pras
Sometimes, you can, you go to hell for the rest of your life! That's a true thing.
Someone ought to mod this up -- this is what companies do with lab notebooks to deal with patent work, because not only do you have to show that it's novel, you have a certain time frame in which you need to do the work [it can also stand up in court as to who actually has done the work first]
In most places I've worked, it's also common practice to do work on only one side of the page, fill each page as much as possible, and date anything that is cut and pasted in before it is signed.
First off, a suggestion: locate and visit your nearest Patent Depository library. You should be able to locate them from searching the USPTO site. Keep in mind that the online patents (this goes for the internal PTO system as well) only has searchable text for patents back to 1970. Before that, it's all paper and TIFF images, not searchable.
Now, IANAL. I did, however, work at the USPTO for several years when they were first reaching out to the net. I also spent a lot of time hanging out with Patent Examiners, and I have this to say:
The Patent Examiner is not your friend.
We are talking about someone who was lured into his job with the promise of a "free" law degree (a longstanding PTO perk for examiners). A law degree which they had to pursue at night, one class at a time. By the time they get this degree, it's 10 years later, they have become absurdly specialized in their field, their technical knowledge is a decade stale, and they are operating under an arcane and demanding quota system that rewards them for how many applications they can *deny*, not how many they can approve.
The Patent Examiner is not your friend.
We are talking about someone with such specific areas of responsibilities that he can tell you that the prior art for your claim in in building 6, eighth floor, room 200, fifth row, six shelf columns down, 3rd bin from the floor, patents 3-5 in the stack, and by the way, his annotations are in green pen on page two.
The Patent Examiner is not your friend.
Examiners are ruthlessly slam dunking applications as fast as possible, so they don't wind up short on quota at the end of the quarter. Does your claim sound like somehting they might have seen before? Ashcanned.
Patent Lawyers *may* be able to navigate this gauntlet by assisting you in the wording of claims, and the details of your figures. But not even a Patent Llawyer will have the degree of specific knowledge that the Examiner is using.
I'd continue your search at a Depository library, then seriously consider a lawyer. Best of luck.
The simplest argument is that patents do not only prevent, as you say, "a company, or companies, just steal it from you, while you (the inventor) get nothing." If that is all patents did, there would be little objection.
But a patent also restricts anyone who later independently comes up with the same idea. If you invent and patent left-handed widgets and I, without knowing, also invent and start selling left-handed widgets, I'm fucked. If I sell a left-handed widget, even without knowing that anyone has patented left-handed widgets, I'm fucked.
Patent law will have some hope when independent re-invention is an absolute defense. Until then, it's just a way for people to claim ownership of ideas and deny others' the use of their own brains.
Think about it: Do you know that nothing you have built, no line of code you have written, has ever been patented by someone else? Do you know for a fact that nothing you've invented, no line of code you have written, does something that anyone else has ever done and considered important enough to sic a lawyer on? Because if you don't know that, you are walking through a legal minefield. Patents, like landmines, should be kept out of places where they might make trouble for those of us trying to get things done.
--G
better that pumpkin is honored by you knowing that you were eating it than you not knowing what was going on.
Would you rather be killed by some passing car, not even noticing you, or someone who admires you and actually GAINS from your death and appreciates you and your life.
THAT is what connecting with your food means, it means you recognize its life and its worth and you thank it for its sacrifice, whether it was its own choice or not.
(offtopic i know.)
Pras
Sometimes, you can, you go to hell for the rest of your life! That's a true thing.
Umm.. That only works for COPYRIGHT.
With copyright, if you mail yourself, via Registered Mail, an envelope-sealed (can't use tape - what if it's an old envelope and a new text?) master copy, you can establish a date of existance and then be able to sue those that violate your copyright without having to do anything else.
With patents, prior art requires much more than that. An envelope sealed away doesn't count because to count as prior art, typically the application or product must be public in the sense that it is available to some group capable of acquiring the product.
Example. I make Guilty Widgets, and make them for the purpose of fulfilling some government contract, and my GW's are new products with potential uses that I can't see but could revolutionize Cog manipulation. I don't patent it, but it is mentioned in a maintenance manual for the Armed Forces Joint Strike Attack Bomber's Anti-Pixelization and Pizza Delivery System. (Don't ask. It works. Instead of making a lot of dust when things go boom.. you get the picture.)
Now, 2Lt. Charles "Hind-Leg" Williams, an expert pilot but disqualified from military aviation due to an odd congenital birth defect, is reading through these manuals and, lo and behold, comes across my GW and sees the potential for cog manipulation. If he steals my idea nearly verbatim and patents it, I can claim prior art on it because I have the profound mountain of evidence that shown I made the GW's before he did.
Example 2. I make The Burger Flipper. It's two pans stacked on top of each other so I don't have to use a spatula because I'm a lazy bastard. While I've got the envelope with the idea in my basement collecting dust alongside my Pet Thong and the Lava Hoop, I watch a Sci-Fi marathon of The Thing and see soemthing oddly like my burger flipper advertized for the low low price of three easy payments of $19.99. But wait, they include a batter pourer and a book of recipes that was won off eBay for no extra charge.. and if I call in the next ten minutes they'll cut off one inch from my waist with DextDiet ZQ. If I try to claim prior art, the judge will laugh in my face because there was no way that the other guys could have seen my idea.
btw: IANALBIWL2P1OTV.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
This is Don Lancaster's (author of Incredible Secret Money Machine) take on patents. He's a unique character, and sometimes off-the-mark, but you should consider carefully before rejecting his advice.
He estimates the breakeven point for a patent is over 12 million in gross sales. His catch phrase is that it is useless to patent a mere million dollar idea.
But you still have to admit you are biased, in the same way that us computer guys are biased when we see inept people trying to maintain their own servers and failing badly.
A savvy enough person, that does enough research, can do pretty well at maintaining their own server, and I bet the same is true of basically anything.
Yes, a lot of people will fuck it up, and I'm sure you see those people all the time in your job, the same way we have to deal with inept people on our job that think they know what they are doing, but don't.
I think the same advice applies to both cases too... If you don't have the time to invest in doing tons of research, keeping up on current trends, etc, then it is probably better to hire someone who knows what they are doing. But for the person who has more time than spare money, and is smart enough and willing to do the required footwork, they could likely do nearly as good a job as an expert, in all but the most complex cases.
This is coming from someone who has only rarely consulted with a lawyer, but has been in court numerous times over custody/visitation/child support, and also been involved in a personal injury settlement, which I settled without a lawyer, very sucessfully. I don't get the idea that I am some sort of lawyer, and I do lay down the money to consult with one if I am in doubt about something, but in all, things have worked out well for me.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I filed my get-rich-fast patent application last year while I was in between jobs. I am still waiting. I too debated between hiring a lawyer and doing it myself. I ended up doing it myself. Here was my logic.
First of all, I did a quick search (about 2 weeks) and did find similar inventions. So I used them as my templates. I read and followed "Patent it Youself" because my brother previously had successfully gotten a patent by following it.
Secondly, my invention could only succeed with the partnership (more like conspiracy) of several large corporations. So my goal was to license the patent. The idea that one patent attorney could protect me from the army of IP lawyers at several companies just didn't make much sense to me.
So I thought the best thing I could do was to get large corporations to fight each other. As I saw it, if my invention was not worth fighting over, then it would never create a monopoly, and never sell. It would be fun just to watch big guys fighting over my invention. Maybe I would become famous.
The bottom line was, if I couldn't get one big guy on my side, I would get nothing anyway. So at the end, I just filed the patent myself. I thought a framed patent would look nice on my wall. And I could afford the $350 filing fee.
Go directly to Nolo.com and give them your money. They're absolutely wonderful. They also do a pretty good line in landlord-tenant law, and a book about getting out of a speeding ticket. Oh yes, and they have a fabulous law encyclopedia to boot.
Thalia