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Developing a 21st Century Public Transportation System?
Terje Mathisen asks: "Oslo has a pretty good public transportation system, consisting of local trains, subway, metro, trams, buses and ferries (to get across the fjord, and to some of the small islands). Now they want to put screens on all the central stops (about 300), showing the exact time until the next bus/tram will arrive. This will requires GPS units on the buses and trams, radio communication back to the central, some form of comms link back to each stop, and daylight readable screens. On all the remaining stops, they want to use SMS messages, so that you can use your cell phone to query the system. Do you know about similar setups anywhere else? How well do they work? How expensive was it to develop, and what costs were associated with the deployment and maintaintenance?"
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both cities have an exact blueprint of a traffic system that you expect. Check them out and don't forget coritiba! D D
Yet another example of where some retard thinks that an Ask Slashdot can subsitute for an adequatly funded research project.
When these Euro-tards realise their cutting-edge new transport information system cosists of monochrome LCDs from recycled hacked-up 386-laptops, 802.11a cards nigger-rigged to 2nd-hand GPS units, and a pathetic beowulf cluster of Red Hat systems that need patching daily, they will commit suicide rather than fess up that they spent all the research money on caffeinated Penguin mints, green laser pointers, and LoTR DVDs.
They do? Sugoi ne! I wonder what their definition of "Central stations" is though. If it's just National etc. I doubt people will be spamming them with SMS messages instead of just checking the timetable ;)
Those f*** monitors are just starting to work though. I wish they'd put up more of those. ;)
Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What'd I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That's right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail' softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud...
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You'll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I'm on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it's Springfield's only choice...
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again...
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken...
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono... D'oh!
well Strasbourg(France) uses something somewhat similiar....all the tram stops are outfitted with large simple electronic displays telling you how long you have to wait for the next tram.....I would assume that the relative position and speed of each carrier in a public transportation system(train.subway,tram,monorail etc.()but probably NOT buses) is known,ie. present and tracked by the communcications and control centers of the local public transportation board...ie. someone(invidiuals working together with networked computers) keeps tabs on when and where which carriers are, allowing for central override and rerouting. If such info is available to those in control this info can probably easily be passed onto some kind of local display unit-ie. the tracks and rails used in public transport carry electronic information(ie. when such is being built lines for communication and control coordination are laid at the same time...passing such info to sms should be little more than snapshotting the ongoing communications,ie. tram 7 triggered switch 89a on Rue de Mirrior [Tr7@SW89| 23:08:2002:17.45.32] and piping this into a sms server(in europe the state-or partially state-owned telecoms usually are the biggest cellphone and sms providers.....(the predomicance of the state, in a good way, as evident throughout western europe, is manifest in exhaustive, reliable, high-quality public transportation) As far as the technical details used in such systems, this will invariably differ to a great extent from one city to the next, perhaps even between the varying subsystems of the public transportation, probably with some degree of national coordination (socialistic-ie built with tax dollars and implemented through gov. contracts and or regional industrial dominance(ie.large electronic/communications firms- phillips/erricson/noikia or ....)
(before I moved to europe(for my grad studies) I had only seen passenger trains in movies....and I have been through more than half of the US......
Sydney has this kind of thing, but i don't think its GPS related...
What they do here is have little metal detectors about once a kilometer on the track, and at all station stops. they're all wired with cabling that goes along the rails into signal boxes that presumably have some telco connection to the nearest station, which each have connections to their adjacent ones.
What this does is signal to a control room somewhere where each track is. the control dude[ette] knows where all trains in his/her area are at any time. ALL public transportation systems should already have the ability to know exactly where each of their trains are at any time, to avoid collision.
Sydney stations (mostly) have electronic notice boards, displaying the time to the next train, what its stops are, and how many cars are on the train (so you can move to the appropriate place on the platform, shorter trains don't go to both ends of the platform, of course). I think the times here are put in manually by the drones, because they are way, way off once in a while, and other times have TOTALLY incorrect information. In this case they usually come on the PA system in their characteristically overly loud mumbly Australian voice saying things to the effect of "see the TV up there? bugger it! Next train goes to wwhsdkdjsidaoj asdoijasd a stopping at wlaldj alskfhw, shodija, oiweha, oasjas, then all stations to lkasd."
I wouldn't worry too hard about seeking a wireless solution, when the train people already own (or at least control) all the land that the rails rest on. Using a wired solution here is probably more reliable considering the weather up there. (isn't it rainy & cold all the time? i dunno.)
Boston is promising displays with each vehicle's location and estimated time until arrival on it's new "Silver Line" Bus Rapid Transit route. According to the FAQ on the special Silver Line website:
While the line opened up a few weeks ago I don't know if the message boards and kiosks are up and running yet.A great source of information and discussion on urban transit is the newsgroup misc.transport.urban-transit (also readable through Google.) There you'll find a collection of very knowledgable (and sometimes not so) folks sharing and debating information on systems & proposals around the world.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Washinton DC has a similar system eg "5 minutes until next train". It is flawed, but they do not use GPS, as it is a subway. They use magnetic relays to monitor train positions. The relays were first put in to only determine when the switches activate.
Why not use similar track sensing technology? I am sure some of it is already in place, and it would work for all track-based transportation. GPS would work for the busses, but as we know from the yro section, they can now triangulate a person's location with cell towers. why not use Europe's more advanced cell network to accomplish this? The boats are a more difficult thing though, GPS would have to be used, as LORAN isn't quite accurate enough
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Seriously ... having accurate schedules is nice, but I don't need it that nailed down. Time the things and update at waypoints, maybe.
... do you want to be stuck on a train with your up to the second GPS coordinates being broadcast at all times?
... but I still don't like being that easily monitored. Combine this with face recognition in a few key places and it's really too much.
Why wouldn't I want it?
Well, assuming an imperfect world where some people have enemies
No, I'm not paranoid that some secret agent is going to helicopter in
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
I use the MyBus.org page for the intersection right next to where I work ( FAIRVIEW AV N & DENNY WY) practically every day. It's really nice because I clearly see when the next bus will arrive (and if it's going to be late) and I know to leave my cube about 5 minutes before it shows up. No more standing around in the Seattle rain waiting for the bus!
I'm looking for a HEPA media filter for my TV. I'm alergic to reality shows.
www.nextbus.com
The light rail system in Salt Lake City, Utah incorporates a similar system. Displays at the end of each station announce arrival times and other messages. It doesn't seem to be too advanced of a system, most likely gettting data from track signals.
This sort of setup seems to be standard on most systems. It looks like Olso goes just a little farther by incorporating data from all modes of public transport into one system. Seems like the next step for most transit systems IMO.
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
(1) 'Telbus'. With your cell, call the number listed on your bus stop and get information on the next couple of busses.
(2) 'Tous Azimuts'. (http://www.stm.info). Calculate the shortest route between two points, using metro (subway), light-rail and bus.
(3) Online timetables, etc. Not that interesting, but useful nevertheless.
(3) Boards in the metro stations that indicate when the next metro is coming. This is AFAIK currently a pilot project.
(4) Fat racist fifty-somethings that yell horrible things in incomprehensibly thick accents over the metro's PA system whenever some bubble-headed Hilfiger-clad teen causes a ruckus by, eg, holding the door open for thirty seconds so his ugly girlfriend won't break her ankles by running in this season's shoes. Very effective technology.
- undoware.ca
...is a pilot project of the MBTA that is supposed to work this way (GPS on buses, screens showing 'till next bus times). I haven't ridden it, though, so no word on how well it works. Any Bostonians taken it?
ObLink: www.allaboutsilverline.com
Allen
Your friendly neighborhood nitpicker
I am supprised no one has mentioned it yet but London's Underground has a similar system. I do not know what they use to impliment it but they have screens telling you how long it will be until the couple of trains arrive and their end point.
Several cities I know that have somthing like that:
- London UK: At every tubs stop and about half the bus stops there's a sign saying when the next bus/train will get there. I'm not sure how the bus one works (maybe just pulling it off a schedule, as it's never very accurate) but the train one is generally bang-on
- Montpellier FRA: Brand-spanking new LRT with fancy displays at each stop giving exact times
- Kyoto JPA: At every bus stop is an odd sign with the name of your stop and the three preceding stops. When the bus reaches any of the three stop sbefore yours, that light goes out. Maybe radion transmitters at each stop?
Cue The Sun...
The system doesn't care about schedules; it learns real behavior from the data it receives.
This was a low-budget operation; one person developed most of the system.
- Not enough busses. Amount of people and traffic underestimated. The infrastructure (busses and roads) did not evolve to accommodate the IT rush.
- Express busses run until 6 PM or so... if you live just "outside" and miss the bus, you will have to ride 3.
- OTrain has only one route...
- No Subway.
Tables are available at bus stops. You can also call for an estimation.Essentially, get a car or take a cab.
All public transit in the Portland, Oregon metro area has some sort of tracking hardware installed, with several methods available for the public to view it.
Several years ago, TriMet (the main public transit service in Portland) installed GPS/radio units on every bus in the system. Originally, these units only gave information to drivers and those transit system managing folk, enabling them to know the exact location of each bus. The units are mounted next to the farebox facing the driver, and display the current time (I always set my watch from that), how early or late the bus is, and if the bus is on route. The boxes beep and alert the driver if the bus runs more than 1 minute early or 5 minutes late, or if it deviates from route. In the last year or two, they have begun to install 4-line LED displays at major bus transfer points, which indicates the time until the next few busses. A typical display might read something like "15 to Gateway TC due; 6 to Gertz Rd 6 mins; 15 to Gateway TC 8 mins; 15 to Gateway TC 4:50" (The display goes to "due" when the bus is within a block or two of the stop; any bus due to arrive more than 15 minutes from the current time has the scheduled arrival time rather than countdown displayed). This information is also available on the web for all bus lines at all stops at a page on the TriMet site. I'm not aware of telephone access to this information, though schedules are available from an automated phone system.
On the TriMet MAX light rail, the information is obtained from loops buried under the tracks. Time until next train arrival (Similar display to what was depicted above, with Red Line or Blue line and one of a few destination endpoints in place) is displayed at a few major stops. This is unfortunately not as accurate as the GPS system, and can be sometimes several minutes off. I heard one story where a bridge malfunction trapped all the Red Line trains on the wrong side of the river, yet the displays would count down to the arrival until "Red Line to Airport: Due" would come and pass and no Red Line train would come. This is obvious a serious breakdown in the system in a number of ways, and really shows that a public address system (something our city's transit lacks) is necessary. No matter how good the system, it will fail eventually. (For another example of that, read this amusing story about a conspiracy of a bus door, a mailbox, and safety mechanisms getting a bus stuck at one stop for several minutes.)
Finally, on the Portland Streetcar, a tram line overseen by the City of Portland rather than the regional TriMet organization, each streetcar has a NextBus unit onboard, which works by means of GPS. Perhaps the most comprehensive example of this sort of information available in Portland, every single streetcar stop (with the exception of perhaps two or three system which have no practical access to power and/or telecom) has a two-line LED. The display rotates between displaying: the current time, the NextBus URL, "Portland Streetcar: No Smoking on Platform", and the time until the next two streetcar arrivals (e.g. "Streetcar due in 3min & 18min"). This information is also available on the NextBus website for every stop in the system, and I believe this information is also available via WAP.
"How expensive was it to develop, and what costs were associated with the deployment and maintaintenance?"
Income tax in Norway ranges up to 55%
In Russia and many of the former Soviet Bloc countries, the subways have a clever system that does almost the same thing at a tiny fraction of the cost. They have displays showing how much time has passed since the last train arrived. For less than a dollar's worth of electronics per station, plus a digital numeric display, you get what most passengers really want: a reasonable gauge of how long they'll be waiting. While it's not going to be able to tell you when the next train is delayed, how much expense is that really worth if you're not putting position tracking in place for other reasons already? Obviously photocells and mechanical relays attached to a time counter isn't viable for a trackless system like buses, but a similarly cheap thing could be done with low-power radio trasponders in the vehicles and receivers at the stations.
If a sophisticated tracking system (whether via GPS or via transponders at waypoints) is put into place for other reasons anyway, of course go ahead and mine the data for a sophisticated time-announcement service instead.
By the way, I've never seen a CRT or LCD-panel system in a public transportation system that was in very good condition for long. Even if vandalism isn't a concern, general wear from air pollution, bad weather, cleaning fluids, CRT burn-in, LCD failures, etc. could make the displays expensive to maintain. Will the displays also be used for advertising or important public information that can't be conveyed on printed signboards? If not, I'd look into the cost of a simple electromechanical or digital alphanumeric display showing the times. It's less glamorous and versatile, but might be much cheaper, especially over time.
You don't need GPS. Each stop needs a connection to the base anyway, so just put low-power radio "tags" on each bus, and have each stop detect the bus when it gets there.
The Swedish city if Gothenburg (quite close to Oslo) has a similar system. I do not think that it uses GPS, but rather tags that tell sensors at each stop where each veichle is. At each stop there are signs either giving a time (if the location of the veichle is known) or a time, prefixed by 'ca', to show that it is using the time table. The system has been developed by a Swedish company called Hogia Persontrafiksystem AB. The site is in Swedish, but holds information about their products that can be interesting (since you discuss Oslo, I presume that you can read Swedish, it is closely related to Norweigan).
The tram system in Helsinki has had a service for ages that uses SMS to tell school-kids when their next tram is due to arrive, thus preventing them from having to stand outside in -40C temperatures.
When you feel a and hear some noise down the tracks, you know the train will be there in about 10 seconds.
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2. ?????
3. Profit
The positions of all the trains is monitored somehow and relayed to the stations.
some of the the major bus lines have a gps system that relays information to some bus stops.
The bus company recently finished testing two systems... unfortunately I can't remember the winning system, but SkyBus lost.
The lines with most passengers and busses use the GPS system to keep an even distance between them at peek hours... this avoids the busses from clotting together and reduces the average waiting time for each passenger (works beautifully!)
There isn't an SMS system (although I know for certain that it's been discussed, I don't know where that project is currently).
"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." -George H.W. Bush
I can see a need for the gov't to be the one to equip the public transport vehicles with gps transceivers, or some other locating device. But once they're transmitting that data out into the air, what's the point of having a government monopoly on the display of that data?
Let private companies pick up (receive) that data, package it, and sell it. The companies that do it best will survive, and those that don't will go under. That ensures the system will work for the consumer. If only the gov't gets to display the transport data, then just what incentive do they have to do it right? Have you ever heard of a gov't public transportation employee losing their job for not meeting market expectations? Me neither.
The city gov't could rent display space in the transport stops to private companies, for putting up their updated displays. Private companies could, and probably will, put up WAP-enabled sites that make it easy for people to check the schedule at a stop with their cell phone or handheld. Private companies could also work this info into low-powered radio transmissions, on AM, that transmit only inside or very near the transport stops. And all of these possible solutions are guaranteed to serve the consumers of public transport, because it will be the consumers who vote with their dollars/clicks/eyeballs/phone calls on the usefulness of each solution.