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Laser Vision Surgery for Developers?
cyclops asks: "I have been contemplating about going for LASIK surgery for a couple of years. I want to get rid of my dependency on glasses or lenses because I really find them cumbersome. The main thing that is stopping me now is that like you, programming is my livelihood and thus I spent a major part of my day staring into the monitor. I have readthat there is always a certain percentage of patients not regaining 20/20 vision but it's OK for them since most of them don't need that sharp vision during work. I am about to consult with a LASIK surgeon but I would love to hear anecdotal evidence about your experiences, to hear if it works out for you eventually. (I have stable myopia of -5.50 and astimagtism of -1.00 for 3 years already)." Ask Slashdot has handled this issue in the past in two previous articles: this one from 1999, and a related article from 2000. With at least 2 years since the last time this question was posed, how has medical technology improved in this aspect? For those unwilling or unable to take advantage of Laser Surgery, have other viable alternatives arisen in the past two years?
Lasik can harm your night vision, among other things. For such a distance-specific task as programming, you're probably much better off with glasses (and much safer).
I don't know much about this site, but I'd just heard about it: http://www.lasiktruth.com/. Look around, I've heard a lot of bad stuff second hand about it.
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
from BABF13 - Bart to the Future Ralph: Mr. Flanders, your blindedid. Flanders: Yeah, I never shoulda had that trendy laser surgery, it was great at first, but at the 10 year mark your eyes fall out.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
i stared into the fiber coming from our t3 drop, and my vision was miraculously cured. well, except for the one dark spot that has a burned in backwards "NORTEL" logo on it.
At present, opticians measure and correct defocus and astigmatism. The eye has many higher orders of aberration (spherical aberration, coma, trefoil etc), which are not measured and are not corrected. The problem is that, for laser surgery, the astigmatism and defocus are corrected over a small area of the pupil, smaller than the area of the dilated pupil. Outside this area, aberrations are exacerbated, and not currently measurable (although there is a lot of work in this area). Hence, if you have laser eye surgery, your corrected vision will (barring complications), be fine during the day or when in a brightly lit area, but vision may be worse than pre-correction at night. Doesn't sound too bad, unless you drive at night...
A friend of mine is a senior uni researcher in optometry. She's told me that the flap of cornea that they open up in order to do the surgery never heals properly and that even mild trauma is able to re-open the cut. This can result in infection, scarring and permanent damage. She wears glasses and preaches openly against this technology.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I don't know what the odds are that such a thing would happen for a given laser eye surgery. Personally, I think that if there is any chance at all that a cosmetic surgery will prevent me from doing serious computer work, then the cosmetic surgery is not worth it.
=Brian
There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, will not hate it.
I just went to my eye doctor last week and asked about Lasik. HE wouldn't even recommend because he thought there was not enough case work on long term effects of Lasik. He was concerned about possible long-term corneal degeneration risks, since Lasik cuts away part of your cornea.
OTOH, I had previously thought that the biggest problem would be that some patients experience "halo" effects, especially at night. He said that was mainly due to other techniques based on RK, but not so much with Lasik.
BTW, as an optometrist, he was offered Lasiks for free, for himself, but didn't take it for these reasons.
Me, I wear glasses, ones with a pretty thick lens on the left at that. The frames get a little in the way of my peripheral vision. But I don't want Lasik. Why? Because of the failure rate--even if it's somehow down to only 1%, and I'm not sure it is.
Forget worrying about not achieving the 20/20 vision you want and that many people get from it. Worry instead about the real risk of corneal damage that will leave your vision worse than it was before, with permanent starbursts and haloes like you're looking through scratched, scuffed glasses all the time.
Will this happen to you? Probably not. In fact, if you have the sort of vision that Lasik corrects, you have a well over 95% chance of getting the great vision without glasses that you want. It's just that if you draw the short straw, you could find your ability to read a screen pretty thoroughly ruined, with or without glasses.
Weigh the benefits against the risks, and if you decide to do it, note that most surgeons have you sign a boilerplate contract that bars you from suing them if your vision is ruined. Who's the real winner?
Had the procedure done -- both eyes on the same day! -- and it was fantastic. My night vision was never very good, so I don't mourn the loss, and in fact, my depth perception has improved since getting rid of my glasses. After a year, I'm 20/20 in one eye, 20/15 in the other -- a vast improvement over my pre-surgery vision. (And my good eye now was my good eye then, too.)
I notice my eyes getting a little tired near the end of the day, which is normal for folks with naturally good vision. And I know that I'll need reading glasses eventually. Big deal. I can see my wife in the morning, swim with my kids, fall asleep while reading, wear decent sunglasses, etc... All trivial things when you've got normal vision, but oh-so-worth it when you've needed glasses for 20+ years just to find your frelling shoes.
Oh yeah, it's worth it. Find a decent surgeon -- research! ask questions!
My story is anectdotal at best, but I can't recommend the surgery strongly enough. I spend most days staring at the computer screen (I remember talking to my eye doctor suggesting that I spend 14-16 hours looking at the computer, he replied "in a week?", "No, a day..."). Both of my parents also had the surgery with success which gave me more confidence to have it.
I had laser surgery (LASIK) last spring. It was a fantastic experience. I basically have had contacts forever (-4.5 in one eye, -4.25 in the other, slight astigmatism in one but I don't know the number value for it). I went in for a consult and they deemed me an ideal candidate after checking my vision and doing some measurement of the size of my cornea (mine is thicker than average which is good for them because they effectively reshape your eye by getting rid of some of the cornea).
I went in for the surgery on an afternoon. I had both eyes done on that day. I basically sat in this chair and focused on a little red light. They put some numbing drops in my eyes and then lowered this eyeball sized tubish thing over my eye. It basically sucked onto and grabbed hold of my eye, then a blade comes out of that to slice a thin layer of the cornea. The surgeon then lifts up that layer and the world goes super foggy. I focused as best I could on the red light (with the sucker thing on my eye, I couldn't have moved it anyway). And they basically fired a laser at my eye for 50 seconds or so. Then they flipped the cornea layer back over my eye and the world became clear. They then did the same process for the other eye. It did not hurt in any way during the process.
When it was done, I could immediately see better but it did hurt to look at bright light so I basically got patches over my eyes and was driven home. I took some Tylenol PM and went to sleep with these plastic things covering my eyes to protect from rubbing during the night.
The next morning I drove back to the eye center without my glasses. At that point my eyes were about 20/40 or 20/30. I went to work that day as well so I basically missed an afternoon of work. I had to wear the eye covers at night for the next few nights. Over the next week or so as my eyes completely healed, my vision became 20/15 in both eyes. It has been that way ever since. I do notice slightly more haloing (halos around point light sources) at night but nothing that might not have been there before and I just didn't notice.
I can't recommend it strongly enough. Not having contacts has been a pleasure and the whole surgery experience was a breeze. The worst part of it was the anxiety as they did the surgery but it only lasts about 15 minutes and was well worth it.
Honk if you love Justice! -The Tick
If it's anecdotal evidence, conjecture, speculation, or just good old innuendo your interested in then Ask Slashdot is the place for you.
I'm with Brian Barsky's OPTICAL group at UC Berkeley. (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/optical/ )
We are currently doing research on how to better describe the damage caused by laser surgery.
You see why laser surgery repairs correctable damage (damage that can be otherwise corrected with lenses)
it also causes uncorrectable damage... more or less a "corner" where the laser stops hitting the eye.
this "corner" gets more profound after the eye begins to heal from the surgery and tissue regenerates.
It eventually causes people to have intense glare from light sources on the side of their faces (i.e. headlights when you drive at night)
I would recommend NOT getting this surgery.
Unfortunately not too terribly much progress has been made in consistently describing this damage (reports cite perhaps 30th order zernike polynomials for approximation of these problems...which is not helpful at all in describing the shape of the corner)
We are hoping to better describe quantitatively the damage caused by this surgery.
Anyhow I suggest you use a reversible method for correcting your vision (eg glasses/contacts)
--Daniel
Vega Strike Lead Developer
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/
I had LASIK 2 years ago and have no night vision problems. For the first couple months, there was a slight 'ghosting' effect around bright lights at night. That has completely disappeared. My night vision before the surgery was excellent and it continues to be so.
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
Hogwash. There is a chance, but night vision problems (like haloing) typically go away over time.
I had Lasik a couple years ago. I never had nightvision problems, even temporarily. My wife had hers done a week before mine. She had haloing for about 6 months, but it eventually went away.
It's different for everyone. General statements like that are just FUD. We /.ers don't like FUD.
Mox
There is a school of thought that says that vision can be improved by stretching the eye muscles. This is advocated by behavioral optometrists. The idea is that when you spend time focused at a certain distance, as so many of us do, our eye muscles tighten chronically. When this happens, the cornea and lens distort and vision problems arise. The problem is not helped in the long run by corrective lenses.
I believe some other behavioral optometrists have some other theories about "learning to see", etc.
I know this all sounds crazy, but my vision got worse every time I go in for a few months of really intensive coding. A few months ago, I was certain my prescription had gotten worse - I can usually tell because on top of not seeing distances clearly, I have headaches and feel sick a lot.
On a lark I bought a book (really, an ~80 page pamphlet) on eye exercises, and also a bigger one on behavioral optometry. I did the eye exercises they prescribed, and within a week or so I was seeing noticeably better.
Now, I believe behavioral optometrists would prescribe a regimen of steadily weaker corrective lenses, to exercise your eyes. I haven't gone that far yet, but I do have to say I was stunned by the marked improvement in my vision a few weeks of exercises got me. I've dealt with steadily worsening vision for the last 20 years, so I KNOW I am not imagining it.
http://surgicaleyes.com
i d=1618&highlight=lasik for more info on what I went thru.
Wish I'd found that site before I had my eyes fubared.
Short version...its been a year+..I'm spending over $50 a week on eye drops due to major dry eye issues....reading which used to be a pleasure in my life is now a nightmare....most importantly, due to the dryness and constant tiredness of my eyes, long term comp work is flat out. Also, caffine is majorly restricted due to how my eyes react to it... Nightvisions pure hell.
So..if contemplating it....do ALOT! of research...any doubts, dont do it.
See also : http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?&thread
Good luck
I was like -4.00 and -3.75. I had Lasik a few years ago. Now I see about 20/25 and 20/20. I have the halos at night.
I have to admit, initially I was somewhat disappointed because my vision definitely wasn't as sharp as it was when it was fine-tuned with my contact lenses. But to tell you the truth, now I don't even think about it. My vision is definitely "good enough" and I'm glad I did it. Being free of any vision correction is really, really nice. The halos at night used to be somewhat annoying, but I've pretty much gotten used to them and they don't bother me.
One big advantage is that my eyes don't get as fatigued from wearing contact lenses at the end of the day, and I find that to be an advantage in late night programming sessions.
For me, the positives outweighed the negatives, but unfortunately there's no way to really know for yourself without doing it.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I'm a programmer. I had my eyes done about 4 years ago. I've had no problmes. I did get a 'starburst' on bright lights at night but it is actually milder than the same effect when I wore glasses.
I had the procedure mainly because glasses interfered w/hunting and other outdoor sports.
From what I understand- the greater the correction needed, the greater the risks. My vision was not too bad prior to the procedure and better than 20/20 in both eyes after it was done.
I would do it again in a heart beat.
.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
However, if you take one quote away from this post, it should be this: This isn't like buying toothpaste. This is surgery. You will get what you pay for.
In other words, do your homework before even talking to doctors. Be aware that this is surgery, even if it is outpatient surgery. I ended up paying much more than the "average" rate because the doctor I chose had done over 10,000 procedures (successfully), and was an instructor of the procedure. If you can afford it, the extra money for someone really experienced in the procedure is worth it.
I basically sat in this chair and focused on a little red light. They put some numbing drops in my eyes and then lowered this eyeball sized tubish thing over my eye. It basically sucked onto and grabbed hold of my eye, then a blade comes out of that to slice a thin layer of the cornea. The surgeon then lifts up that layer and the world goes super foggy....
My brother had it done. He does not regret it, but he did say that the experience can be phychologically very uncomfortable. If you are the least bit squeamish about people playing with your eyeballs with scary tools and having your head and eyes locked into one position for a duration, then forget it.
They can't put you under anesthesa (sleeping gas) because you must keep your head and eyes still, and sleeping people tend to move both. Bummer.
Table-ized A.I.
I hope she turned out to be as good looking as you hoped. A low pass filter does wonders for a woman's beauty and having it removed like that can be a shock!
-- SIGFPE
I'd be careful about wildly comparing everythings "danger factors" with driving at rush hour. Especially eye surgery. It is morbid, but chances are high that in a car accident you either won't really have to handle the results or get over it rather quickly. In eye surgery however, you're quite unlikely to die if the surgeon hits the "disintegrate" button, but you'll probably be blind as a mole for the rest of your life. Now, I would think that most of us are at an age where it would be very difficult at least to adopt to a completely changed lifestyle, especially if your defect was rather minor beforehand (nothing really requiring glass bricks).
I don't want to say that eye surgery is a bad thing. It has its merit in repairing defects that are otherwise incorrectible. But if it's (ab)used as purely cosmetic surgery, then I think the dangers outweigh the use.
Also note that my sight is rather good (-1.0 on both eyes, with a nasty embryonal core in the left which makes me see double on this eye), and so I might be unqualified to say this. But what I know is that every kind of surgery has very real dangers and that it should be regarded as a last resort.
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
I'm not sure if you've already looked at the FDA's When is LASIK not for me? site but you'd better have a look at their suggested restrictions. Among them: your vision has not stabilzed yet and history of autoimmune diseases.
GMD
watch this
Beyond that, if you are nearsighted and don't suffer from stress-related vision problems, there is no way to "improve" your eyesight through eye exercises; eyes just aren't built that way. Most likely, the "improvements" you are seeing are the onset of presbyopia. Moving monitors further and further away is a common way of dealing with it. Most people get reading glasses when they reach the limits of their desk--it's more convenient. And, no, there is nothing to be done about presbyopia--everybody gets it sooner or later. Some people are just more willing to tolerate inconveniences for vanity--that's the only reason you don't see everybody over 50 running around with reading glasses.
If you wear contact lenses, there is a small chance you may permanently screw up your eyesight due to a scratched and/or infected cornea. The risks of serious negative outcome associated with LASIK are smaller than the normal risks associated with contact lenses, so people who wear contacts now are probably on net helping their odds of keeping decent eyesight if they get LASIK.
Me? I got LASIK a few years ago. Best $4400 I ever spent. The main caveat I might add is that for a computer geek sometime it sucks to have "normal" vision. Back when I was nearsighted it was possible for me to read ultra-fine print. I could print program listings 8 or 16 pages to one side of a laser-printed page and still read it. I could squint a bit and easily make out individual pixels on my Newton or CRT monitor - often useful when doing graphic work.
Now, my vision is just normal. Meaning I no longer need glasses to read stuff 20 feet away, but the flip side is I can't take them off to read stuff 2 inches away. Sometimes I miss that ability.
I play Nerd-Folk!
Essentially, with ortho-k you wear hard contacts while you sleep. These contacts are engineered in such a way that they reshape your cornia to adjust for myopia or astigmatism. I also depend on staring at a monitor both during my job and when I get home (as a hobby). My vision has changed from a -3.5 lens to about +0.25. (The slight far-sightedness is actually a good thing.)
One of the advantages (or perhaps disadvantages depending on your perspective) is that ortho-k is not permanent. As a result, it's less risky. If you stop wearing the contact lenses, your eyes will slowly revert (however probably never as bad as they were when you started).
I've been using ortho-k for over a year now and I love it. I don't have to worry about dry eyes from contacts (since when I do wear the contacts I am sleeping, so I don't feel them) nor do I have to deal with the inconveniences of glasses. Plus I don't have to undergo the scary LASIK surgery. The risks and the costs are much less with ortho-k. I highly recommend it.
Jason.
With my left eye, I have very fine "microscope" vision. I can get very close to something, like a monitor, and easily make out very fine details, like individual pixels on a very high resolution display. While I can sort of do this with my right eye, I cannot get as close to things without loosing focus, and while I can still make out 90% of the detail I can make out with my left eye, it's an order of magnitude more difficult. It's also very hard to explain without the unique perspective that I have. The best way I can describe it is to imagine wearing a very low power microscope on one eye -- you can see great detail, but you lose a bit of distance vision in the process.
All that said, I'm thinking seriously of Lasik. My wife had it done on both eyes, and she's never had one complaint about the procedure. I can't wear glasses because of the extreme differences between the prescriptions for each eye, and I have never done well with contacts. I figure my risk is much less than normal, because it's only one eye, and if I have a less than perfect result, my brain is already used to ignoring most of the faulty data from that eye anyway (I see 20/20 using both eyes). While I enjoy my microscope vision, it seriously interferes with my depth perception, and I find myself wanting good depth perception more than I want super-detailed vision.
My advice to those seeking Lasik, is to definately shop around, and get several recommendations. Take the time to find a competent doctor, and don't cheapen out on the cost of the surgery. The doctor who did my wife's surgery owned his own machine (many are simply rented and shared among many doctors), and never reused blades. He'd also been performing Lasik since it was an experimental surgery, and was very honest about the risks, bad experiences, and eligibility. It was quite a bit more expensive than anywhere else in town, and even the preliminary exam wasn't free -- but in retrospect, it was worth every penny.
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A: This is not OT.
B:I chose to comment at this level because you're talking about my prescription, or close to it - 10.0 and 10.5 nearsighted, with a couple of diopters of astigmatism.... at least, it was. It was a scary decision, but i figured the chances of permanent crippling vision damage was miniscule, and the chance of some degradation was still pretty small. I figured i could wear even worse coke-bottle-bottoms, switch to a larger font, and maybe squint a bit, maybe even use a screen reader, for my job. On a mountainside, glasses can be a real hassle. Fogging in the cold, sliding down your nose in the heat, and, the possibility of them falling off and leaving me hoping for a high-altitude rescue (contacts are even worse when you're that far out on your own) made me take the chance.
I had to go with PRK, as my cornea is only about as thick as the flap they cut for LASIK. During my post-procedure phase, I accidentally took the cortisone drops a few days too long, and ended up making myself slightly farsighted. I'm only 39, so i've still got good focal range, and can focus down to about 8 inches, but I'm going to need reading glasses sooner than I should have. I still don't regret it. I'm a solid 20:15, and can jump out of bed in the middle of the night seeing perfectly.
Note that if you're much past 10, nobody will do you, so it can't get rid of 2-inch-thick lenses. What it comes down to is your own priorities, what losses you can live with, what risks you can stomach. If you're a couch potato, barfly, gamer, or otherwise sedentary, vision correcting surgery is probably a waste of time, stress, money, and karma. For me, not a day passes where I don't think about it and giggle about the fact that I'm no longer a cripple when I sleep.