Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Shuts Down Lik Sang
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has taken legal action, shutting down popular import gaming site Lik Sang for distributing X-box mod chips. Lik Sang is a popular import gaming site based out of Hong Kong. The full article (MSNBC) can be found here." Several people have pointed to the same story on news.com.
So MS can shut down an entire company for selling one product they don't like (selling a mod chip is not illegal where Liksang is located) by slapping them with a legal action?
It just goes to show you how abusive MS is, as if you needed any more evidence.
Many people yelled that it was just an upgrande and M$ was not telling me what to do with **MY** hardware. Well bite me, I knew M$ would prove me right.
I dont own an X-box, I dont own a mod chip, but M$ continues with the attitude that you will use this the way we want you to use this, you will not dieveate at all from our buisness plan or we will label you a pirate and sue your sorry butt..
I hate to ell you this AC its none of your damn buisness if I want to run Linux or back up my games (and YES I BACK UP EVERYTHING I OWN!).
I have a feeling this would depend on whether you are talking about the Clinton DoJ or the Bush the Younger DoJ. I think the present administration is generally less keen on the Sherman Act than the previous administration.
I think Microsoft's recent increase in agression is a sign that they think so too.
I leave it up to you whether that is a good thing or not.
This is insane! I mean, what if Ford started shutting down shops that trick out cars? Would the people stand for that? My rule, if I buy it, it's MINE! I don't give a darn WHAT the EULA says. EULA isn't exactly a strong legal document.
The legality of xbox mod chips is ambiguous at best. Perhaps no crimes are committed in the production or installation of them, but consider that most users would utilize their modchip to play copied games or ROMs or Linux, etc. Xbox is sold at a loss.Microsoft needs to sell games for the xbox in order to recoup the losses it incurs for every unit sold.An easily accessible modchip that allows for people to NOT need to buy games for their xbox is a bad thing. Atleast for Microsoft.
------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
I'm already reading stuff on here from users about how MS is now telling them what to do with the property they bought. This is NOT what is happening! You as a user can open up your XBox and hack the hardware as much as you want, hack it so it bypasses whatever security's in there, they won't care. However, take that hack and turn it into a business for yourself by manufacturing hardware and selling it IS what they will move against. In my opinion, they have every right to do that, and it has nothing to do with a monopoly on anything. Just my opinion! Comments?
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Mod chips are not "Value adds".
Value adds are the features inherant to the system as designed. It just so happens that the xbox is a very "value added" system inherantly.
DVD, 5.1 Dolby Digital, Hard Disk, 4 Controllers, Ethernet, Fast Video, 64 megs of ram, HDTV support and many other XBOX features give it VALUE over other competing products and make it wanted and valued by many.
The devaluation is at the software and game level. Is Developer X going to spend 5 million making a game that can be pirated with ease because someone can goto lik-sang.com and get a modchip? NOooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Microsoft is protecting the value of the millions of units sold. Microsoft is protecting the rights of the licensees, distributors, developers and contributors of the xbox.
What is the value of hacking a system to use it for purposes of which it isn't intended or designed for and why can't microsoft legally fight to protect its intended and protected interests?
Even though i modded my dreamcast and could play pirated games, i didn't consider this a value add. For one, i couldn't read the japanese games and often times it wasn't worth the effort and for pirated games they were ripped, chunked, slow and missing features.
After my experimentation with "mod chips" it just wasn't worth it, and personally i see the value in the xbox of being a superb platform to begin with so i'm anxiously waiting to buy the excellent games that will come out.
As for liksang, i'm sure they were doing other things to get shutdown and i'm sure Sony, Sega and Nintendo have always wished they had to balls or $$$$ to do it themselves....
it was the "value add" of the modchips and ripped DC games that ended the life of that console. (and the ps2.. but sega cited the loss of software sales because of rampant piracy and loss of developers because of rampant piracy to be a big factor)
I seriously doubt that MS shutting down a mod chip store effects their stock in any form.
And screw sony too. Anyone that own's one of their DVD players knows about the infamous C:13 error that you get after about a year of usage. Thousands of consumers have this problem and Sony's only answer is to fix it for a mere 179 bucks.
If you're having the problem, you can try to fix it here
Live web cams
To use it for purposes of which it isn't intended, obviously. Why ask the question when you have the answer in your question?
Because once they sell you the product, they have no legal rights to it anymore. BTW, what's a "protected" interest? That means nothing to me. I'm currently using an old Western Digital hard drive as a doorstop -- does that mean WD has the right to come and force me legally to not use their product in this unintended way?
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it." -- Ayn Rand
Just because you're a happy user, content to use your Xbox in whatever way Microsoft sees fit for you to do so, doesn't mean that everyone else on the planet shares your views. If I buy an Xbox, take it home, and decide to do something else with the equipment, that's my right, and my choice. As long as I am not unduly and tortiously interfering with the rights of others (people, not corporations), Microsoft has no recourse, period, end of story.
Selling Xbox mod chips is *exactly* like having a set of lockpicking equipment. Locks are meant to keep people out of areas they don't belong in; same goes for the 'security hardware' on the Xbox. You don't see the 5-0 arresting those guys that come and get your keys out of your locked car, do you?
Microsoft basically is using it's influence to crush out of existence what they don't like. Gee, who'd have thought they'd do that.
I love your "I don't use it so it should be illegal" attitude. Especially this:
For one, i couldn't read the japanese games and often times it wasn't worth the effort
Well, guess what, I can't read Japanese either, but I have enjoyed many games from that country on my modded PS2 such as Sexy Parodius, Twinbee Deluxe Pack, Salamander Deluxe Pack, Gradius Gaiden. I also just happened to purchase Ikaruga for my Dreamcast. These are all shooters - and there is no language barrier for pure twitch action like that.
Konami's games have always been popular here, but we didn't get any of those. So I adapted my system so that it would do what I wanted it to do. I see no harm in that, and there is not a thing about it that breaks any law aside from (possibly) the DMCA additions to US Copyright Law.
You know why people have to import? Because the console manufacturers maintain a tight reign on what is published on their console. They are able to do so because it is nigh impossible to create working distributable software without their permission, and even if you could, you could possibly be in violation of patents or sued under the DMCA (for bypassing methods of protection).
What it boils down to is that certain companies are not allowed to translate their games onto U.S. systems, even if they are willing to spend the money, because the hardware manufacturer is afraid that that title will make their system look bad. That's bullshit. Take a look at the PS2 as a great example - modchips appeared within a small number of months of the console's release allowing pirate games to be played, but NO ONE made a chip allowing imports until this year! It was a much more difficult process... Now why is that?
I want to play the games I want to play. If I am not able to do so, I will pass the console by, plain and simple.
Microsoft designed an expensive box. PS2 and GameCube were designed better. Economics, as you put it, would dictate that Microsoft start a new design and beat the competition.
Detroit designed expensive to build cars and Japan beat them. Would you think it proper for Detroit to have shut down the Japanese car makers?
Infuriate left and right
Microsoft doesn't want people to have the right to do what they wish with the products they buy.
Yes, these modchips facilitate piracy. But they also have legitimate uses on every console they exist for. Not to mention that people should be able to use the modchip for "copied" games so long as those are backup copies.
Lik Sang offered plenty of legitimate products for people who enjoy modding their consoles, tinkering, homebrew developmenet, etc. Of course, Microsoft doesn't want people to tinker and mod for ANY reason, because this undermines the next step in MS's business plan.
Microsoft is trying very hard to establish a sense that you don't own your X-Box, but they do. With Palladium, they are going to extend that idea to the PC... you don't own your computer... MS does.
Microsoft is going to use their money and power to take out any companies like Lik Sang in the future that give people the ability to mod their X-Box, or mod their PC's hardware after Palladium is released.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Perhaps no crimes are committed in the production or installation of them.
Say I go buy a used '89 Chevy pickup from a used car dealership. Perfectly legal.
There's a company in town called Classic Roadsters. They've produced a modded body for the '89 line of Chevy pickups that is very similar looking to a Hummer. Perfectly legal (the body shape doesn't breach any size requirements stipulated by the DOT).
but consider that most users would utilize their modchip to play copied games or ROMs or Linux, etc.
Now, say I took that modded truck, dressed myself into some army get-up, and drove onto the local army base, pretending to belong to the armed services (I don't). Now I'm doing something illegial.
My point is this: the XBox is a piece of physical hardware. It can be patented. It cannot be licensed. Once I purchase an XBox (if I ever do), I will OWN it 100%. Nothing that Microsoft ever says or does can change that. If I want to take the bloody thing apart and turn it into a toaster oven, Microsoft can't do a thing about it.
People have outfitted their cars for over 60 years now making them better. Say I had a beat-up Ford pickup that didn't work anymore, so I put in an engine from a Dodge pickup so I could get the Ford working again (please don't tell me if this is possible or not... I don't know, but it's all for the sake of argument). I don't think Dodge or Ford would complain. I'm sure you know someone who put a new stereo system into their car. They didn't have to buy a whole new car to get that stereo system they wanted. They put one into their own car so they could have better sound. People soup up their cars all the time specifically so that they don't have to buy a new car just to get the same features. It's perfectly legal to do so. It should be perfectly legal to do the same with consoles.
Xbox is sold at a loss.Microsoft needs to sell games for the xbox in order to recoup the losses it incurs for every unit sold.
Tough shit. Do you see Lincoln selling their Towncar at $9,999 brand new missing an air conditioner, and then selling air conditioners for $20,000 more? And on top of it all, making the Towncar so that no other AC would work in it except for Lincoln's own AC? Of course not! But this is what Microsoft is doing! Don't blame the customer for finding a better deal which is less profitable to Microsoft.
I can add a new cat-back exaust system to my car.
I can add a new hard-drive to my computer.
I can add an aftermarkt remote for my tv.
I can add a network card to my PDA.
I can add headphone to my stereo.
I hope my sentiments express fully my displeasure:
Microsoft, your unethacal employees, and your astro-turfers here on Slasdot: suck my dick and add me to your Foes. I don't need friends like you.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
I never, ever post here, mostly because Slashdot is so packed nowadays it's probably already been said. But I feel compelled.
All of you saying Microsoft has the right to do this:
Are you all complete and utter retards? Does this really have to be explained to you anew each time something actions such as this (Not necessarily by Microsoft) has been taken?
Let's try again, slowly for those of you who can't understand it.
1) Although there aren't enough details available (That I've seen) to judge this particular instance, virtually every time a purveyor of products that let you change what you've legally purchased to do something else gets shut down it is NOT with actual legal action, it is with the THREAT of legal action. The sickening fact of all this isn't whether or not these entities are within their legal right to do this, but that the question is never asked. Lawsuits are so onerous that the mere threat of one is sufficient to stop what MAY BE legal. The crucial legal court test NEVER OCCURS.
2) The 'slippery slope', while being largely a strawman argument, in cases like this is perhaps valid. If you don't think ANY hardware company is absolutely DROOLING at the prospect of extending it's reach far beyond the change of posession (purchase) of a product you're living in a fantasy world. Precendents such as this will of course start with a basis in what are apparently legal and moral positions, right now in the name of stopping piracy, but there is absolutely no reason to stop there. Once you've established the precedent of extending so-called 'rights' beyond the customer taking posession of your product you have infintely more control over what they can and cannot do, spanning legal and illegal uses.
3) The fact that devices such as mod chips (And P2P networks, for that matter) have both legitimate and illegitimate uses is not just a side argument. It is important to realize that many freedoms enjoyed by Americans (And for that matter, citizens of many other countries) are freedoms that could be used for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes. Drawing comparisons between the use of mod chips and free speech is more than just hyperbole, it is an attempt to illustrate that once you start allowing the restriction of something based on it's (in this case potentially) illegal uses you are setting a very dangerous precedent, and one that because of the DMCA has criminal and not just civil ramifications.
The DMCA is the bridge between a civil lawsuit brought by Microsoft and someone going to jail for making or using something that could be used to violate IP 'rights'. If you still don't believe me, ask yourself why they need the DMCA then? Why was it necessary for the government to enact legislation that allows companies and the government to take punitive actions against those who violate IP, or more accurately those who MAKE things that COULD be used to violate IP, rather than stick with civil proceedings? (Even the threat of which, I might add, seem to work just fine.) In other words, if you're going to say no one's going to get sent to jail for this, why is there a law that says you will? Do you honestly think that mod chip makers should go to jail?
4) Microsoft's choice to sell their products (X-box) at a loss does not automatically give them the legal right to take any and all action they see fit to try and make money through other means, in this case through game licenses. It's been said time and again but you still don't seem to get it, just because somebody WANTS to make money doesn't mean they GET to. It's very possible that their choice to try and pursue this method of profit is foolish and could result in failure due to the boxes being modded for uses besides purchasing the products they do make money on, but because of point (1) we may never know. By using the threat of legal action they may have secured a business model that is unavailable to other companies without as deep pockets. Do you think Microsoft would have succeeded in beating down Lik Sang if Microsoft were a small startup? (Not that X-box's major competitors, such as Sony, are small startups.) No. They can do this because of point (1), and because other companies realize the law being on their side (perhaps) is a moot point. In this case, Might Makes Right.
I hope this explains a bit to those of you comparing modding your X-Box to rolling your odometer back on your car (boggle) or simply accusing posters of being Microsoft/other large coporate entity bashers. It IS about essential rights, albeit indirectly, whether you choose to believe ir ot not.
-- If we were in any other industry they would've shot us a long time ago.
The chips typically allow a game machine to play legally and illegally copied discs, run unauthorized software and play game discs intended for other geographic regions.
Unauthorized by who?
"There is no right to profit."
"There is no right to profit."
"There is no right to profit."
What if people start incorporating open source software into proprietary code and violate the GPL? Not so ok anymore when the shoe is on the other foot. But when MS does it, everyone's up in arms.
Vote for Pedro
People have established that Microsoft isn't attacking hackers directly. If you want to open up your xbox and piss on the circuits, BillyBorg can't stop you. If you manufacture and sell commercially a means to circumvent or alter their code, they can. The real question is, why?
Basically, MS could care less about someone making money doing this. What they really care about is what this enables. A commercial outfit, manufacturing and selling components *enables* virtually all people to purchase xboxes with the *intent* of using them for alternate purposes. If they leave hack-shops unchecked for long, they have basically allowed a competing market to develop against what they really want to sell - games and service.
If I want to purchase an xbox because I want to mod it AND I know I can just buy a chip online with ease, Microsoft would rather not sell me the xbox in the first place. Since they can't discriminate against buyers, they can make it more difficult for me to purchase a chip. Microsoft is not targetting the hardcore hackers. If you want to hack an xbox that badly and you have the skills, you'll do it. Who they *are* targetting is the average Joe Sixpack who buys an xbox. If he buys it and later sees he can easily purchase and install a mod to do things like play pirated games or run a webserver, Microsoft has just lost marketshare in the market that counts.
THAT's what they are trying to stop. Not hacking, but the widespread usage of manufactured mods by average users.
The problem is that the mod chip contains leaked code from the dev version of the x-box, which you didn't buy. They're basically selling pirated software. That's why MS is angry- what's on the chip, not the fact that there's a chip.
Username taken, please choose another one.
The linux xbox hackers aren't even a blip on the radar, and you're fooling yourself if you think they are. The people Microsoft is after are the guys that mod their machines to pirate software.
There are three reasons to mod an XBox: to get games for free, to defeat region control, to use Linux. In that order. People who mod their box to use linux are a minority. People who mod their box to use linux and pirate Xbox games are probably a minority. The majority: people who mod their xbox for the sole purpose of pirating games.