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More on Microsoft vs. Lik Sang
Levendis47 writes "CNET's News.com is running an article on Microsoft's legal manuevers which have successfully shut down the Lik Sang ecomm store where they've been selling various game system mod chips including the OpenXBox Mod Chip. This leads me to two questions (and I'll admit my ignorance, faux or not, in order to get discussion on this topic): 1) When a customer purchases an XBox (or any game system for that matter) are you intrinsically "signing" an end-user agreement in the purchase that makes modding the device illegal? 2) Could a non-profit org setup an effort to have mod chips produced and "distributed" at the cost of production w/o legal repurcussions? (i.e. would not making a profit on XBox's hardware mods protect you from their wrath?) 3) I understand the whole DRM aspect of mod'ing for playing copied games, BUT, what about legit gray-hacks like the Mandrake Linux XBox project and such? It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices (and potentially more software if they licensed an opensource validation library)... "
They don't want to sell devices, they want to sell games...
I'm still undecided as to whether the Xbox is a honeypot for MS to see how easy people find it to crack the hardware, in preperation for whatever is going to replace it. I'd like to think it isn't, but then for some reason XP refuses to return any results if I search my entire system for "*.java" in XP, and I'm a Java Developer...
Invoicing, Time Tracking, Reporting
It seems to me that this whole situation isn't as clear-cut as it may first appear...for starters, there only seems to be once source to confirm that it was Microsoft who ordered Lik Sang closed down (which admittedly was Microsoft itself, but the Australian branch, which from prior experience I know shouldn't be trusted :0).
:0)
Also, why are Lik-Sang still collecting e-mail addresses for people who want to be told when they are back online? Why not just shut down the domain and save on hosting bills? I know most of you are going to say that it's a Microsoft ploy to get a list of addresses of mod chippers, but that's a little farfetched even by MS standards.
The much more likely scenario is that MS doesn't want Lik-Sang to close down altogether (betcha they sell a whole pile more PS2 chips than they do X-Box ones), they just want them to stop selling X-Box mod chips...in which case, the site will be back up in a few weeks, when all the legal problems are sorted and Lik-Sang have "smelt the glove" of Microsoft
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You know that guy who stole your girlfriend away from you in the summer of '95? He's going to die.
It all comes back to the DMCA (damn the US government for making a law that always reminds me of a Village People song!). Whether it's right or wrong, the law says you can't go around and break apart copy protection systems, which is what goes into the consoles. If Ford were to ever start putting region encoding in their engines, then modding cars would all of a sudden require a lawyer :0)
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You know that guy who stole your girlfriend away from you in the summer of '95? He's going to die.
The answers to the questions are IMHO:
1. No, you don't sign an agreement when you buy an XBox. Even if such an agreement was included, it is questionable if this holds any legal value.
2. Profit is not truly an issue in this conflict.
3. There are a few reasons why a MOD chip (and/or its sale) can be illegal:
- The MOD chip contains copyrighted code from the original.
- The MOD chip qualifies as a circumvention device under the DMCA or similar non-US law.
These are usually the reasons a MOD chip is pulled off the market by a court order.
Microsoft won't allow anyone to mod their xbox because then anyone could write software for it. If this were to happen, than M$ wouldn't get any money from game publishers, etc for allowing said publishers to distribute games for xbox. They might allow someone to port linux or other OSs to the xbox, but only if that someone were willing to pay the same fees as game publishers (or perhaps even higher fees), but I doubt it. Even then M$ would probably force the ported OS to use DRM, so it would only run the software they chose (ie, whose developers payed them).
"I love the smell of burning Karma in the morning." Codito Ergo Sum.
I'm no microsoft fan - BUT
When I first heard of this happening, my first thought was that they arent cracking down because of *what* they are doing, more of because of the methods.
Is the mod chip in fact, a bootleg hacked microsoft bios? Therefore, the claim would not be against anybody modding anything, but in fact a case against a company for distributing microsofts copyrighted code (the bios).
I could be wrong of course - but I bet thats the angle of the lawyers above all others.
It all depends.
The article clearly states that they were selling XBox with mod chips pre-installed. Though you may argue that you have the right to change parts on an electronic machine, it could still be legally questionable if:
- They have a distribution agreement with Microsoft that prevents them from altering the XBox
- These changes include installing software ( even if it is in ROM, EPROM, FLASH, etc ) that is illegal under DMCA
I guess this business is just so young, maybe 50 years of serious computer/software business so far, that these failures are just result of immaturity. In my opinion there is nothing so different in this industry of ours and it should just follow the same rules as with everything else - with only minor changes.
This statement makes no sense. Why would MS support Linux - their sworn enemy? Why would they make it easy for people to buy their hardware and run Linux on it?
Even if MS didn't care about Linux, just look at the facts. The Xbox is basically a PC. However, it's sold at a huge loss. The sales of games make up for this loss. However, if everyone buys the Xbox at a loss, and then doesn't buy any games, but installs Linux on it, and uses it as a PC, MS loses a shitload of money. Without the Xbox, these same people wanting a PC would have to buy one from Dell, or something, which comes with Windows XP and other MS software, so MS has made money on software, without losing any money on hardware.
The only reason MS entered the game console market is to make money. They need the games in order to make money. Without them, they lose, and the Xbox will be as dead as the Nintendo PowerGlove.
Yes, you _can_ buy an Xbox, and run Linux on it with a modchip, but why would you want to? Why would you want to use MS hardware, which is a stipped down, shitty PC, and run Linux on it, when you can get a mini form-factor (XPC) bare-bones system for under $150, add a processor and drive, and be up and running on a better system without having to look at an MS logo everyday? Sure, I understand the "because I can", argument, and yeah, it's cool to make Linux run on something that wasn't mean to explicitly support it, but really, it's not like it's going to become a true platform.
That having been said, I am in no way supporting MS' extension of US laws to foreign companies. That does in fact suck.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
1) When a customer purchases an XBox (or any game system for that matter) are you intrinsically "signing" an end-user agreement in the purchase that makes modding the device illegal?
Not particularly, no. Of course MS is under no obligation to support you, or your box if it breaks. Also don't necessarilly expect it to work with the Live service. In other words, you're free to break it, just don't dump on MS when it breaks or you can't use it with some new game, or their online service, they are well within their rights to exclude you if they are able.
2) Could a non-profit org setup an effort to have mod chips produced and "distributed" at the cost of production w/o legal repurcussions? (i.e. would not making a profit on XBox's hardware mods protect you from their wrath?)
Ahh, now here's where you get to the quasi legality. It's the production for profit of mod-chips that has dubious legal value. Ever wonder why you can't just walk into a store and buy a cable descrambler? You might be able to avoid them - but you have to show up in court, and pay the legal fees when they sue you.
3) I understand the whole DRM aspect of mod'ing for playing copied games, BUT, what about legit gray-hacks like the Mandrake Linux XBox project and such?
Microsoft is concerned about a larger picture. Of having the X-Box be an end unit in a network of units. They want to make sure that the network is somewhat secure. By supporting something like Linux on the X-Box, they help to compromise their plans.
Yes, but those aftermarket parts don't contain huge chunks of copyright-protected code. THAT is the specific legal issue MS has with mod chip (and their sellers).
MS couldn't give two shits less if you painted flames on your Xbox, jacked the suspension and hung fuzzy dice from the ethernet port. But the mod chips actually contain a considerable amount of the original MS Xbox BIOS, and reselling that in modified form is what gets MS's panties in a bunch.
Plain vanilla copyright allows you to make modifications to software/hardware you've purchased. For example, you can purchase Windows NT Workstation and hex edit the bits that cripple Workstation so that it acts more like Server. You may not however redistribute it.
Microsoft hates the idea because they want to sell Server, which is just a recompile (with a few other tools) for much much more. They claim that you are bound to the End User License Agreement when you open the shrink-wrap package you forfeit this and many other rights. Of course, they don't get your signature, and most people never have any idea of what this license says, and some would say it's plain illegal to force customers to waive so many rights just to use software, so it's kind of up in the air.
I imagine this same EULA makes mod chips illegal. EULAs have not been sufficiently validated in court (cases seem to go both ways for a number of reasons), so you're rolling the dice by challenging it.
However, IANAL.
Greetz DJB, JS
No, you're absolutely right. The real problem is that Microsoft is using copyright law to make sure no one reverse engineers their hardware. To me, that's just an abuse of copyright. It really has nothing to do with protected the BIOS that they worked so hard on. It's a way of closing up their hardware, and having the law to back it up. I don't like that.
Cool, so if I bought a Taurus in California (thankfully I'm not dim enough to buy a Taurus to begin with) and then had to move to another state for a new job, I'd still be driving under CA's fascist enviro laws and paying out the yang for such inefficiency?
When do the buyers get told about this little gotcha, assuming they're told at all? And how much does it cost to get it reprogrammed?
Sounds like a lucrative scam. And it makes the Greens happy too.
I'm firmly of the opinion that the DRM features are present in the XBox as a practice run.
They can hone their skills on known hardware.
Thus being cracked and modded is a successful operation for them. They even get practice on how to oil the wheels of litigation.
All this with not much reputation to lose, after all it's *only* a games console.
Once they've got it sorted out with their own hardware design they will be in a position to know how to issue "DRM Compiant" certificates for motherboards, for a fee. Then we'll be paying an MS tax on hardware without anyone arguing about pesky OS's. Their patent on DRM OS's may mean that there'll be another license fee to pay should *your* OS want to use the DRM facilities built into *your* motherboard.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
No. That section has so many loopholes that it can almost never be applied. For example, you can only reverse engineer if you want to IMPROVE the security of a product and not undermine it (not that I see the difference). This is according to Robin Gross from EFF, at 2600 H2K2.
You aren't. Once you buy that XBox, you can do whatever you want with it. There's a long standing rumor that you can't mod your consoles -- but that's just a rumour, put there to discourage people from doing it.
That's why Microsoft doesn't go after modders themselves -- they litereally wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Instead they go after the modchip makers and sellers. It's a little easier that way.
If points 1 and 2 are illegal, then the Mandrake Linux XBox Project is in the same boat since that requires modification to the XBox's components to make it work (and a custom USB connection).
No offense to anyone, but why the hell would anyone want to make the XBox run Linux? Just because you can? It doesn't help, it doesn't make it faster, all I can see that it does do is void your warranty for the sake of being l337.
Heck, even that vengful guy who owns petswarehouse, Robert "Look at me funny and I'll sue you" Novak, has demonstrated all you need is the desire and free time and you can fsck up people and businesses.
Somewhere in my Journal I detailed a minor skirmish I had with someone on Hong Kong (where I belive Lik Sang is) over an eBay item worth $30. They hauled the guy in and I finally got something. I was amazed how ready the police were to act on a complaint by one measely american. By that token, I'm assuming, Hong Kong will do it's best to show foreign business that they can count on their support. After all, Shanghai and several other cities on the SE coast of China would be more than happy to take their business.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
first, shame on you.
second, very few people care about this kinda thing. m$ knows that. there will be a small underground thing that will exist for this stuff, but it'll never hit critical mass as long as people buy products that contain these ridiculous eulas. i mean, how fscked up is that?! only to use and not tinker with!?
along with the copyright and patent systems that need to be reformed, we have to get rid of eulas. they do nothing but tie our hands and are the most ridiculous thing ever!
when bill was getting his house built, the contractors should have made him sign some ridiculous eula stating that he could not sue or call for repairs if anyone (including the contractors themselves) broke in; if something in the house went wrong; or if he wanted something in the house changed (i.e. customized). instead he would have to wait until the contractor (or any contractor for that matter) decided that they *might* wanna fix something.
Oh, and the contractor would be able to come back at any time and hang out there. better yet, kick bill out and take over for an undetermined time. all the while touting expensive upgrades that won't work and take years to complete and are never delivered on time and to spec.
but sadly, we don't live in that world. anyway, i specifically will not buy an xbox because of stupid crap like this. if i buy a machine of any kind, i expect to 100% own it. and i don't want *anyone* telling me what i can and can't do with it. because after all, it's mine! down with the dmca - for real. and quit buying these things until they change this sort of stuff! jeeze..
After John Lennon made his infamous remark about Jesus Christ, angry fans collected their albums and made a huge pile to be smashed by a steam roller. The PR fiasco that caused was gigantic.
Suppose enough rabid people were willing to spend $200 on an Xbox (or other MS products), lose some money for MS, and stage a peaceful protest in which a steamroller crushes brand new Microsoft merchandise. What would it take to make this a big event? 100 people with 100 products in an urban center could probably draw a crowd and a news team. Someone can get in front of the camera and explain that until Microsoft is sentenced for attacking the American economy (big issue), until Microsoft cancels its strategy of restricting home users' rights (big issue), they should be considered a(n) (PR buzzword here - "enemy combatant"? "traitor"? "evil influence"?) in America and the public must take action.
Hell, at the very least, it would be fun. At best it might force the issue to the forefront and raise awareness among the regular citizen about what the future holds.
I think MS is right is using the copyright laws to keep people from altering there hardware. YOU, as an individual can MAKE YOUR OWN Mod chip, BUT going out and buying one, even if it is not for profit is wrong, Its like the black box for cable to unscrable all the channels, there is really no legal use for this technology so it should not be permitted to be sold, The same goes with Mod Chips, there is said "grey area" like the linux project, But if one wishes to do the linux project one must fist make there own mod, I don't think telling people how to make there own mod should be illegal since it is just sharing of information, But making it for some one is/should be illegal. Thats my views on the matter, Most likly I am in the manority, since I also think downloading MP3s with P2P programs is illegal
It should be obvious to the rest of the world now that it's not the American people that run the goverment. It's business. Most citizens don't vote. All of our laws are more influncenced by the lobbyists which are fighting for various big business interest.
I'm an American, and I'm proud to be one - if only because my standard of living is above most of the rest of the world.
It's more than the USA having nukes, tho. We have the most powerfull conventional military on the planet, too. But it's more than military force. It's the "American Dream". We still give everyone the chance to make more of themselves here in the USA. It seems like most americans have either forgotten that or become lazy. Maybe both.
The rest of the world knows, tho. We still get people from all over the world comming here - working hard (something unfamiliar to most americans) and making something for themselves. They're making lots of money and supporting families in other countries.
Well, that was a bit tangential and all. But it's not the people here in the USA anymore... It's money and business. Kinda perverts the word Democracy.
You can repgrogram alot of the computer system in the car yourself, you just have to figure out how. Propritary solutions (such as Ford's and GM's) are harder to break, ISO 9141/SAE J1962 interfaces (as used in most European and Asian cars) are basically RS-232 with diffrent voltage levels, and allow communications for accessing information about the vehicle (OBD-II). Most of these interfaces also reuse the 2 "Propritary" pinouts to provide a second RS-232 interface to the programmable parts of the system, such as the ECU/ECM and ABS subsystems. As far as Ford/GM, they use fucked up pulse width modulation crap to transmit data.
The diffrence between ISO 9141/SAE J1962 and RS-232 is that ISO/SAE protocols use +12V and 0V instead of +10V and -10V (if you know how RS-232 works this will make sense).
I'm hacking my car (literally), to find out what extent these things have control of it. It's neat, once you figure out how to build a ISO 9141 to SAE J1962 adapter (I've got all the specifications now..).
Note that if you use ISO/SAE papers to do this crap, you then can't talk about it due to the licensing agreement. I don't use ISO/SAE materials, so fuckem. Someday I'll have all the stuff documented publicly.
So, no, an X-box is not a car. If Honda/Acura tries to tell me I can't do this, I will nicely tell them to fuck off. They aren't protecting media with their car. They aren't copy controlling anything. etc.
I haven't bought an XBox and I'm not going to mod one if I get one because it's just too much of a pain. But here's the thing I can think of.
If the XBox is basically a computer, it can run an MP3 player. It has Ethernet. I've got an SMB share with all the music I own on it. I'd like to have that playable in the family room as well as at my desk. It already has video-out, display to a TV. No need of monitor.
Compare this to one of those (admittedly sweet) Shuttle boxes. $150 plus the price of a processor, plus the price of a 5.6" LCD panel, some kind of IR/remote, HD, Memory... Cost of time to mod the case to include the display panel or whatever...
IF I could buy an XBox, plug it in and drop a 'networked MP3 player' CD in the drive and be playing my music collection in a few minutes, that's a BIG advantage.
Of course, I can't.
... "I read part of it all the way through." -- Movie Mogul Sam Goldwyn (and some slashdot readers)
The Saturn was the first "sold at a loss." Saturn + Dreamcast at loss = Sega almost bankrupt.
The Gamecube was admitted to be sold at a loss (admitted by Nintendo at launch) but it was small. Estimates were that it was sold at a $5-$15 loss, compared to the $200 or so on the Xbox. And that was only at launch, they got costs down real quick and were profitable before and after the price cut.
The "all consoles" are sold at a loss is a strange rumor. They have always been sold "at cost," retailers make ZERO markup on the consoles, or at least that was the case in the 80s. We used to get our games through a wholesaler through a family friend in retail (wholesale to mom-and-pop stores, not Toys R Us level stores), we'd save about $8 a game, but couldn't get ANY savings on consoles. I think we saved sales tax, but I don't remember if we had to pay it through their store.
Alex
Not true at all. You have no more chance of getting an equal opportunity in the US than you do in numerous other countries; possibly less opportunity. Americans can't see it, probably because they think the world begins and ends at their borders, but for the rest of the world the US is definitely no longer first choice when considering migration. Possibly better communications have made more people aware that they will have few employee protections there and have a much greater chance of being exploited by their employer than in many other countries.
so, we are better off not dealing with them then
true. In the skydiving industry, many companies refuse to sell their products in the US. Granted that this is because of the litigous nature of the US, and not related to any specific law. My point, which I think is valid and relevant, is that companies ARE avoiding doing business in the US because of fear of the courts - criminal OR civil.
The following European manufacturers will ship to Canada but not the US:
Thomas Sports Equitment
Parachute de France
ParAAvis Co
_Am
Can you imagine purchasing a car and not being allowed to install a turbo, or better exhaust...or modifying it to run on fryer oil?
Check out full explanation here
I believe the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act allows for the purchase of accessories like mod chips:
" Tie-In Sales Provisions:
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.
While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty."
It is my understanding of this act that no accessories manufacturer is required to get permission from the original manufacturer before producing the add-in parts.
Manguson-Moss also allows for "unintended use"...that means you can buy a hammer and use it as a paper weight if you like (as long as using it as a paper weight does not result in the destruction of the hammer). So Microsoft can not prohibit you from running other software on your Xbox.
How did Microsoft pull this off? MS must have better attorneys.
-ted
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The main and driving reason behind shutting down sources for modded xboxen is to limit cheating on xbox-live.
Cheats and hacks ruin on-line gaming for the players. If modded boxes become widespread, so will cheats and they will be faced with loosing millions of dollars from potential subscribers.
I agree as well. Microsoft doesn't give two shits about the BIOS. Microsoft's beef with the modders is that it screws up their revenue stream.
Their okay with losing 100 bucks per Xbox because they intend to make up the difference in all the content you'll buy. As soon as you buy 3 games, they've started making a profit. However, if you mod the thing and install linux on it, they're still out a 100 bucks and you have yourself a cheap linux box. Since Microsoft's internal motto is "Litigate, don't innovate, it's a lot cheaper".
In other posts I've written about this, but it comes down to the same thing. Until Microsoft can start producing an Xbox that they can make a profit from just selling the box, they've got a major uphill battle, because both Sony and Nintendo's apporach is just that. They make it a point of almost never losing money on the production of a console.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
I'm an American too, but I am not proud of this country on many counts (but I'll leave that for another discussion). The fact is, the United States is the adolecent country in a world of middle-agers (Europe) and seniors (Asia). Think about the personality of each region (not their people, but the region itself) in world affairs. The US has only 200+ years of experience with being an entity, whereas the others have thousands. The US is currently throwing a temper tantrum at the rest of the world because it doesn't want to lose control over oil. (Iraq as a target has nothing to do with "terrorism" and everything to do with a Bush family grudge.) Think about the way our country acts overall. We are "the best", "the coolest", "the trendiest consumers", "indestructable" etc... (As a culture we emphasize youth especdially when it's profitable) How many mature adults really think this way about themselves and express it so outwardly? A mature adult silently revels in the fact that they have "been there" and "done that" and waits for the adolecent to eventaully ask for some help. When the 9/11 tragedy occurred, it was a wake up call letting our citizens know that we aren't indestructible. This could have been the start of young adulthood if we took the lesson seriously. But it appears that we didn't. Sadly, we probably have a few more lessons in store for us before the US really starts growing up and joining the rest of the world. We'll always be the youngest though. (Not always a bad thing)
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Very true. Here in the UK, I know only 1-2 people who have been or plan to spend time living in the states. On the other hand, I can easilly name 20 folk I know who have already lived in Austrailia or are currently planning to do so. I have at least 4-5 friends that are there right now. My flatmate is one who meets both of these conditions, she has spent 1.5 years there already, and would move back in an instant when she gets enough "points" for their imigration system.
Not many of these people know each other, it's not just a group of friends who get the bug from talking to each other. I'm starting to look into it myself...
I can also name 3-4 people who have similar sights set on Canada. Somehow, the USA only seems to be a vacation destination, which it is pretty popular for.
[From previous poster]We still give everyone the chance to make more of themselves here in the USA.
I'm interested in what opertunities that exist in the states, that don't exist elsewhere. Can any one suggest any? C'mon, persuade me to go stateside instead of Oz! ;-)
Bill Hicks had an excellent take on this. He pointed out the crazy belief that non-smokers believe that they are going to live forever. If anything, a smoker is helping the economy by checking out early. That's a lot of savings in pension and long-term health care for the old and infirm.
Non-smokers will still get ill, and they will still cost the healthcare systems of the world as much as the smokers, if not more. Instead, take a look at alcohol, which is morally and socially encouraged in Western society. It costs society far more. Putting aside the harm you can easily do to yourself (each time you get more-than moderatly drunk you are causing permanent liver and brain damage), it costs society a fortune. Most violence/killing is drink influnced, so your Police, court and prison systems are stressed by this. The majority of patients in Emergency Rooms / Accident and Emergency departments at the weekend have drink-related injuries. Drunk-drivers, well 'nuff said there. How about rape? Domestic abuse? Alcohol is another large factor there.
PS. I have nothing against alcohol, but society really needs to take a long hard look at the relative dangers of substance abuse. Most illegal substances cause problems due to their illegality, not the substance itself. Their illegality derives from racism as to who the main users of the drugs were in the 1930s. Back then, people thought tobacco was good for you! But then, alcohol and tobacco are white-drugs, not black/asian...
Or does their American citizenship mean that, like the US armed forces, they're above and beyond the law.
Cheers
Jon