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Mac OS X to Get Journaling FS

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the journal-this dept.

overunderunderdone writes "According to eWeek, Apple Computer is planning to introduce a new journaling file system code-named 'Elvis' with the 10.2.2 release. Supposedly it will run on top of HFS+ and will be turned off by default. Though it will cost you 10% to 15% performance penalty the article says it is more extensive than NTFS and is on par with BeOS's 64-bit journaling file system. Not surprising since it is being developed by the same person - Dominic Giampaolo." I've been super impressed by OS X having used it as my primary laptop for the last couple weeks. It really is a great unix box- and this is one of the important missing puzzle pieces.

15 of 628 comments (clear)

  1. Existing Journaling Systems? by aburnsio.com · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is this an entirely new journaling system or one based on an existing (BeOS) journaling system? Won't there be performance and stability impacts from basing it on HFS+ instead of a more modern framework? Is is possible to compile one of the existing *BSD journaling systems on OSX/Darwin (I haven't heard of anyone with success in this matter)?

  2. a bit offtopic, but by comp.sci · · Score: 5, Interesting

    what other important features has OSX that Linux has not. I am thinking about getting a Laptop with OSX so I was wondering how OXS compares to Linux.

    1. Re:a bit offtopic, but by A_Non_Moose · · Score: 5, Interesting

      (/Off topic whining)
      What was it with the flamebait mods today? I got one for *my* opinion + experience...{shrug}
      (/off topic whine off)

      On topic:
      Excellent to get a JFS on OSX, finally. I let out a "whoo-hooo", but what do you want from a geek. Eh?

      The only thing no one has considered/mentioned is that to gain that speed hit back, you'd probably put in a faster scsi drive, right?

      Some people might recall that Adaptec has/is/was dropping mac support (boo!) and while I have an ATTO card in my Mac attached to an 18G Cheeta, well, OS9 does quite well on it...OSX does a less than thrilling job {speedwise}.
      So far everything seems to point to OSX or its SCSI/ATTO drivers. (bummer)

      Insult to injury is:
      {oversimplification warning}
      From a storagereview.com roundup says, in effect:
      IDE ='s write performance (workstation/home use}
      SCSI ='s Read performance (server/raid)
      Makes sense when you think about it, so it might be a good idea to get an IDE raid card and do a raid 1+0 to minimize or cancel out the speed hit and keep some integrity.

      With so many "Good Things (TM)" coming to OSX, the computing world is going to get very interesting, I think.

      (/me crosses fingers for Power4 Macs...now THAT would be a PowerMac!)
      .

      --
      Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
  3. 10-15% by SlamMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ok, so being I'm not the highest on there terminology totem pole, can somebody expain to me why journaling matters to me, and why its worth 10-15% of my system resources?

    --
    Mod point free since 2001
    1. Re:10-15% by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I disagree. "AOL Grandmas" are exactly the sort of idiots most likely to turn off their machine by pulling the plug or turning off the surge protector the machine is on. Not to mention, they're also the people most likely to destabilize their system into crashing with bad software in the first place.

      I think it should be turned on by default with advanced users, such as video editing pros, being the ones to turn it off.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  4. Just another reason... by toupsie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...to Switch! This was about the last major gripe I had with Mac OS X. We already have an encrypted file system. However, no matter how I have abused my Macs in the past, I have never had filesystem corruption with HFS+. I constantly forget to unmount my iPod and yank it off the firewire cable. Mac OS X grips about the possibility of filesystem corruption but so far, so good. Others mileage may vary and I wouldn't do it during a write.

    --
    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
  5. About that performance hit ... by benedict · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wonder if that stated 10-15% performance hit
    is with or without journal on a separate disk.

    I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet.

    --
    Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
  6. Re:Disk Space. by Soko · · Score: 5, Interesting


    I use FAT32.

    The diskspace used by the journal file in NTFS and this new filesystem can be put to much better use.

    Ya, like all of the fucking backups you need to keep your data safe. On that 80Gig disk, no less.

    Fuck
    All
    There

    is what we used to call the FAT filesystem, and for good reason. No security, no recovery. You work for Peter Norton, any chance? :-P~~~~~~~~~~~

    Get a clue, bud - journaling file systems were integrated with _all_ modern OSes for a reason. Namely, big gain, near zero cost.

    Soko

    --
    "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
  7. I am too, however... by BoomerSooner · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If it takes a 10-15% performace hit that is significant on older hardware. 10.2 is faster than 10.1 but on a G3 333 it's still dog slow. It works out my G4 733 too.

    That being said I'll try it but hopefully there will be a way to disable it as well.

  8. Re:Thisis 100% PURE rumor by MatthewRothenberg · · Score: 5, Interesting
    >>Matthew Rothenburg wrote an editorial entitled "Let My People Go" (or something like that) saying that these so-called "rumor" sites should be allowed the same privileges as the "real" press.

    James,

    Actually, I wrote that "rumor and speculation" was a silly yardstick for Apple to apply to press access, since all the mainstream press sources that cover Apple (present company included) happily employ both:

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,338330,00.a sp

    I also said that Apple has a right (and a need) to establish a method for differentiating between the press and enthusiasts when it comes to allocating press badges. However, applying this particular measure to the small fry and not the big fish smacks of intimidation.

    Press access is a privilege that Apple can extend or withhold, but if they're not going to apply it fairly or consistently, I reserve the right to call them on it.

    Matthew Rothenberg
    Online editor
    Ziff Davis Media

  9. I wanna see CmdrTaco on TV by js7a · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Apple would be positivly stupid not to immediatly fly Rob Malda over for a "Switch" spot.

    A huge fraction of technical (and high-spending) PC users who might switch know exactly what Slashdot is.

    It would be awesome: "... I'm Rob Malda, and I run Slashdot.org"

  10. Quite to the contrary by g4dget · · Score: 5, Interesting
    A journaling file system is actually primarily useful for laptop users: it insulates laptops and external devices on laptops from power failures and other things that happen to laptops.

    On servers, despite its popularity, journaling makes much less sense: there are better ways to recover from failures, and the performance hit really does matter.

  11. Re:Answer unclear, ask again. by zaren · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That could actually be an interesting marketing move on Apple's part - one of the guys that runs a (dare I say THE MOST) highly visible geek web site, switching?

    Not only that, but it'd be a few more bucks in Taco's pocket for being in the ad :)

    --
    Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
  12. Better than NTFS how? by rabtech · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I assume that this rumor means that the new FS will be "more extensive" in its journaling capabilities, not features.

    NTFS supports DACLs (Discretionary Access Control Lists. Grant rights specifically on files, folders, or both for any specific combination of rights. Yes, even includes things like execute, though most users don't get THAT granular.) It also supports Auditing via an ACL-like mechanism. Wanna see if user sally01 read file X? Add her with READ to the audit list. Who is renaming files in c:\docs? add Everyone with rename/modify to the Audit list.

    NTFS does quotas, junction points (links), and reparse points. Reparse points allow things like EFS to work without the app being aware of it. If I wanted to replace the word "microsoft" with BORK BORK BORK on the disk, I could write a parsing driver and install it. Then, any file with my driver's signature in its reparse point list would be handed off to my driver for processing before being saved to disk or read from disk to an application.

    There are plenty of other features as well, but the point is that to be a better filesystem than NTFS would take a huge amount of work on the filesystem itself, plus getting the OS to support it. However it is relatively easy to attack a specific point of NTFS (its journaling) and make your filesystem do that specific thing better.

    --
    Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
  13. Re:Thisis 100% PURE rumor by gsfprez · · Score: 5, Interesting

    >Check back with me in a month, gsfprez, and we can talk about whether or not this story has legs. :-)

    while it may have legs or not - that doesn't change the fact that it is, in fact, rumor - and not solid facts coming from the 1 Infinite Loop Compound.

    Therefore, it doesn't change the fact that the /. report that "Apple: MacOS X to Get Journaling FS" is not an accurate way to announce this news.

    "Apple: Mac OS X rumored to get a JFS in 10.2.2" - which is what your report is - would be far more acurate, and acceptable of a title.

    It also doesn't help to involve yourself with someone who is only slightly more accurate than Ryan Meader. While nothing is as bad as MacOS Rumors - which is only slightly less accurate than CrazyAppleRumors, you might do well to re-examine the useless Ryan Meader-esque drivvel Think Secret has given us in the past...

    - the amazing iPad - which was such an amazingly horrid case of egg-face that they've deleted every possible history of it on their site

    - G5s since may of 1999(http://www.thinksecret.com/archives/0599.html )

    - Mac OS Lite on a Palm-like device since june of 1999
    (http://www.thinksecret.com/archives/0699.ht ml)

    I could go on... but i think that my basic point is that if you're going to lecture people on sexual harassment, you don't have Bill Clinton co-write the material with you - it diminishes your credibility, regardless.

    i do give marks to eWeek for their news on the Mac - its fairly unbiased compared to other tech news outlets like c|net - and i do note that the actual article at your website does clarify clearly that this is, indeed, rumor, and not Apple Computer making an announcement.

    so - while it seemed like a slam on you and eWeek, it was more of a slam on /. and Nick dePlume. My apologies for not being more clear.

    --
    guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.