Symbian Signs on Samsung

mmol_6453 writes "In a move that beat Orange's showing off the first Microsoft-based smartphone by a day, Symbian has signed on Samsung. Quoth the article: 'Symbian now licenses its smartphone software to all five top mobile makers, and its OS has beaten both Palm and Microsoft in the European handheld device market'"

Comments

Not entirely related, but whatever.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thought I'd mention that Samsung is presently the electronics company I'm the happiest with...

I've got a few dozen Samsung monitors, LCD and CRT, all of which are great.. A Samsung cellphone which is also great, in addition to a couple low-end laser printers and a dvd player.

So far as I'm concerned, they're doing great in the 'decent, yet value-priced' category. Anyone disagree?

Oops...

[ryanvm]

Am I the only one that thought that said Sybian?

Re:Oops...

[cqnn]

It was the next logical step after all...

To have the phone set on 'vibrate' by default.

Re:Oops...

[siliconwafer]

Sorry man, Sybian's do a lot more than just vibrate. :) Someone doesn't know their sex toys.... time to get some better pr0n obviously!

Re:Oops...

[doc_brown]

so I wonder just how many people out there know what the difference between Symbian and Sybian are.

Talk about instesting choice for a company names..
I know I'm not going to forgot them :)

Re:Oops...

[Ch_Omega]

"Am I the only one that thought that said Sybian?"

Am I the only one who thinks the obligatory vibrator-jokes, that pops up with every mention of Symbian Smartphones on Slashdot, are starting to get old..?

Re:Oops...

[Andy Dodd]

My first instinct was a reply saying, "PLEASE don't misspell the OS name!" I've seen too many people raving about their Sybian phones - Or does such a thing exist? :)

Hmm

[ShooterNeo]

A Sybian in a cell phone? Now that just might be a good idea. Of course, if you thought women talking on cellphones driving their 2 ton SUVs were bad enough, imagine that chaos if they were being pleasured by the sybian AND talking on the phone AND driving...

Fantastic!!!

[karmavore]

Now my smartphone will be able to respond to those late night tech support calls. It will give detailed instructions on HOWTO: Reboot, take 2 asprin and call me in the morning.

Re:"smarterphone"?

[Maniakes]

So MS's smartphone can play chess... does this me Symbian's can play Go? :)

I'm waiting for a cellphone that can play Global Thermonuclear War.

thanks

[djupedal]

I work for Samsung Electronics Company (Display Division R & D), and I'm happy to part of things. Thanks for the positive feedback. I'm sure SEC hopes for more of the same as new products come online.

Re:thanks

[waterwheel]

Yes, Samsung is doing a great job in the cost-effective market. Same thing - I'm running on their monitors and have lots of their printers around. And as soon as they get their all-in-one laser fax unit in Canada, I'll have one of those too. It's worth noting that Samsung's lasers have been coming out-of-the-box with linux drivers for quite a while now. This isn't something you see on most user-level printers, and it inspired a lot of confidence with me, knowing that it would be compatible in the future when I switch fully over to Linux.

I disagree

[El Pollo Loco]

I had a samsung phone. Never again will I buy samsung. The SCH-850 was a piece of crap. After a few weeks of using it, it would die. Not the battery, or screen. That would all work fine. It would show full signal strength, but would never connect to the network. I could not call, nor be called. I exchanged 3 times, all 4 phones did the same thing. I bought an LD-150, and the UI sux, but I can still call.

Re:I disagree

[Anthony Boyd]

The SCH-850 was a piece of crap. After a few weeks of using it, it would die. Not the battery, or screen. That would all work fine. It would show full signal strength, but would never connect to the network.

Yeah. See, the service requires you to pay a monthly bill.

Good Lord....Symbian? Whats Next? Dildophone?

[Bowie J. Poag]

Micro.

"Handheld Device".

Palm.

Soft.

Symbian.

Why don't we all just cut to the chase and call them what they are?

Expensive vibrators.

Re:Good Lord....Symbian? Whats Next? Dildophone?

[Myco]

Have you priced a decent vibrator lately?

Re:Good Lord....Symbian? Whats Next? Dildophone?

[kubrick]

Have you seen my girlfriend's cellphone bill?

Re:Good Lord....Symbian? Whats Next? Dildophone?

[Myco]

Hmmm, you know, this could open up whole new world for the 1-900 phone sex industry.

Symbian EPOC

[vlad_petric]

... is by far the best OS for mobile devices, in terms of stability (I've had a Psion device for more than 2 years now; the OS *never* crashed and trust me, I've tried many things on it), functionality, and even memory consumption (the filesystem/application memory automatic balance is great).

I wish I could say that Sharp Zaurus running embedix Linux is a good match, but in fact it isn't. Not only it crashed on me once, and required cold reboot, but the boundaries of the filesystem and memory are also fixed; this means that if you want more application memory (to play Freeciv for instance) you have to create a swap file (!?!).

The Raven

Re:Symbian EPOC

[pihl]

Symbian OS (EPOC32) is quite nice some ways:
works, spends only little memory.

But currently we have some minor( or major) problems with it.

* It's difficult to program and the whole programming ideology
is rather different than any other platform I know.
(it's WHOLE C++ (not C), no static variables, those L-ending functions with setjmp-style error handling something...).
All this is a major block for programmers. Every programmer, that
I know, who have studied Symbian environment say that it's quite awful
to make code and takes a quite long time to study it.

* Almost all tools are just for M$-@#%-windows (like for Nokia's Platform-60,
which is used in Nokia 7650). To use Nokia's tools you NEED M$ Visual Studio.
(whole thing eats maybe half Gbyte of your hard drive).

There is an effort to make important tools (compiler, linker) to run
in Linux too.

Maybe Symbian nice, but it's still rather hostile to (non-M$) programmers.

pihl

Bluetooth -- Software development

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a lot of cool stuff coming out for Symbian these day(I know, it's all in theory and testing). Symbian makes things jive just a little bit better. People are now using symbian in respect to bluetooth (switchme). Its something that definitely makes sense and will hopefully get bluetooth off the ground. Hopfully more developers will work to make the killer app.

Another monopoly in the making?

[krazyninja]

From a technology perspective, it is better to have a standardised platform. That increases the rate of introduction of new products, and builds critical mass.
But Symbian itself is coming from a consortium formed by the major cellphone makers. It suits them that they have all the phones running with their OSs. If this becomes a standard, then what do we have? Another microsoft, though this time it owns everything from infrastructure to your little phone. Doesnt look too good to me in the long term.
Is there a Linux powered cellphone anywhere in use? Apart from PDA/cellphone combos, that is...

Re:Another monopoly in the making?

[vlad_petric]

C'mon, you can't put an equal sign between Microsoft and Symbian, for two main reasons:

EPOC is a great, stable OS. No Microsoft OS has ever come close to the quality/stability of EPOC

bussiness ethics

Please understand, dear marxist slashdotters, that it is not illegal to be a monopoly. What is illegal is to abuse your monopoly, like Microsoft did (e.g. through product bundling)

The Raven

Re:Another monopoly in the making?

[krazyninja]

EPOC is a great, stable OS..

Maybe.
Business ethics

What is a business ethic? Who determines it? Do you think, due to their business ethics, this consortium is going to go out of their way to sell phones powered by other OSs to the operators/public? Bundling is just one of the things about to happen.
Being a monopoly is not bad. Its just that todays business conditions are such that, business ethics just dont survive long.

Re:Another monopoly in the making?

[spakka]

Huh? The members of the consortium are direct competitors of each other in the handset market. In what way does this resemble a monopoly?

Also, exactly how do you imagine they will acquire the infrastructure?

Re:Another monopoly in the making?

[ketamine-bp]

til' now, i see several things against your point:

- the symbian company is doing a great job around, and its OS is efficient even with a relatively slow CPU.
- the symbian company do not give you any of the FUD apart from your MSFT stock may go down.
- Being a monopoly by itself is not wrong (mentioned in previous post), this is because monopoly is naturally an aftermath for good business (i.e. offering good products, etc.).

Finally, for your linux need:

- Anything that can run EPOC32 on it can run linux. the bootloader's there, it is a EPOC32 application that overwrites the entire RAM to do the thing. approximately 12MB of memory is needed. If a cut is required, 8MB is also possible, but with some application lost. (e.g. the GUI). last but not least, perl and vi's there.
- i have seen from mailing lists that Nokia's high-tier 9 series is getting its functionality rev' eng'ed to get linux running on it as principle OS, but don't expect too much from it in a short time.

Re:Another monopoly in the making?

[krazyninja]

Again, point by point-
- Technically, how do you say that, Symbian is "efficient"? Where is the proof? Has any systematic study been done?
- FUD?
- I have already with this. All I am saying is, we cannot say that all of the consortium's intentions are noble. There is nothing like a noble corporation in a capitalist economy. Like everyone else, Symbian would ultimately want control.
A look at the marketplace elsewhere can certainly tell you the truth. A BIG example is the DVD forum. All the members are competitors. Still, each of them is big in its way. Apart from them, do you think any other company can stand in their way? All the others are forced to follow (by paying royalties, by not having access to decision making etc).

Re:Another monopoly in the making?

[spakka]

Monopolies can set prices higher then Duopolies, and Duopolies can set prices higher then perfect competition.

Not necessarily. If the product isn't essential, increased price lowers demand.

From the side of the consumer, buying from a monopoly means you are paying higher for the same product. This is simple Economics 101.

Now suppose the monopoly enjoys economies of scale not available to smaller suppliers. Price to consumer might even decrease.

Symbian is cool..

[Anonymous Coward]

.. and they use Perforce. :-) And Perforce offers an Open Source license to any project that develops Open Source. They're also much more reasonable then a certain somebody.

The battle is only beginning...

[mcjulio]

In a space that Microsoft doesn't own, it's going to come down to 3rd party apps and overall product value, combined with whoever's the best phone. Being a pda/phone combo is nice and all, but if your phone sucks, no one will use it long enough to get enjoyment out of the fact that it can do wireless http browsing and IMAP4.

Battery life will also be a big issue, I think, although I don't know how big. The HTC Canary does fairly well in standby mode, since it shuts off its power-sucking color screen. Not sure about the Symbian OEMs - I've only played with the Microsoft product.

Re:you're a retard

[Kenshin]

Imagine a Beowolf cluster of Sybians!!

Now THAT I'd pay to see!

Have you head about those new Sybian phones?

[Subcarrier]

Sybian Series 60, the ultimate sexperience, complete with Multimedia Massaging (MMS) capabilities. Now you can give your partner a buzz whenever you feel like it. An MMS just feels so much better than just a phone call! This is one phone you don't mind sticking under your belt.

Oh, and have you heard about those new Sybian phones for the male audience? They suck.

You obviously have not used one of these phones

[siberian]

We had one in for dev purposes for this event and it is seriously awesome. Pop a chip in it and its good to go in the US.

We do a lot of wireless development and this is the best I have seen by far. The screen is incredible, the form factor comfortable and the functionality is good. The UI is slightly unintuitive at times but since its CE based its fairly easy to extend and develop for. Pop a ram card in and your good to go.

Yea bloatware...

[panZ]

Am I the only one that thinks Symbian is a bloated, piss poor operating system? The idea that MS and Symbian are duking it out for embedded space scares the crap out of me. Symbian is doing well because it has great applications. The OS was designed by a bunch of Apps people who realized, "Hey, we need an OS to run our apps on instead of buying someone else's." They wrote this 16 meg (average complement of libraries) giant with C++ libs and very poor resource management. The reason it sells is they have the apps to back it up so an embedded deivce maker doesn't have to go out and buy them or develope their own.

I'm not poo pooing their success, hey, I've developed drivers for symbian devices, it pays the bills but for f-ks sake; if you are developing an embedded device and want efficient use of memory and battery, PLEASE consider small OSes like VxWorks or Nucleus.
This is what happens when you trust a bunch of English high level application developers write an OS... they drink beer and throw C++ bloat and undergraduate operating system classes at the problem. j/k /me ducks...
I kid because I love you guys...

Re:Yea bloatware...

[Troed]

*cough*

Poor resource management?

Please tell me which other multimedia capable handheld/smartphone operating systems which even come close to the excellence of the CleanupStack::Push/Pop .. (as one example).

Yes, I've also developed on Symbian.

Re:Yea bloatware...

[Ben Hutchings]

The OS was designed by a bunch of Apps people who realized, "Hey, we need an OS to run our apps on instead of buying someone else's."

Where do you get this from? Symbian OS started out at Psion as EPOC32. It was Psion's third OS, so I think they had a fair bit of experience.

The reason it sells is they have the apps to back it up so an embedded deivce maker doesn't have to go out and buy them or develope their own.

The applications need to be changed quite a lot for each UI (Series 60, UIQ, etc). So I don't think it's just the applications that are attractive.

(Contracting for Symbian, certainly not speaking for them.)

TMobile's Pocket PC Phone

[rosewood]

www.tmobile.com - check their product pages (couldnt seem to find a working direct link).

They offer a Pocket PC based cell phone that I have been looking into (bestbuy has a fake display model behind the counter, but thats it). Is this what Microsoft is suposed to be anouncing tomorrow, or is this different?

Id hate to leave palm for a pocket pc phone, but im sick of having a phone that feels lacking and a pda. I love my Palm tho, but Id like to do a bit more some times :

I guess I have hope that I could put linux on the phone, but the phone would still have to work!

Same here

[0x0d0a]

Kind of funny...Samsung isn't really a name you normally hear pimped as "really excellent", but I've had good experiences with their monitors, which are cheap and have better reliability than the Viewsonics that I also use (which tend to get unhappy when you put them in unpleasantly hot rooms). Just bought another Samsung monitor last month.

Now what I'd like to see is ..

[Mr_Silver]

... a Symbian licencee or Apple walk into the PDA market and clean up. Literally.

For years, we've all been sitting around waiting for something that was powerful, flexible, stable, clean looking, customisation, upgradable and fast.

Palm have been lagging behind for so long it's untrue, OS 5 which was supposed to be the next greatest thing is starting to look a bit of a flop. It's faster, but thats about it. Oh yes and all the apps run on a compatibility layer.

Microsofts effort is packed with features, but confusing UI, unstable platform, a blatent memory hog and doesn't support the XScale speeeds.

So there is a prime chance here for a Symbian licencee (and even Apple) to walk in, produce a desirable PDA with all the features above and literally clean up.

Mind you, Jobs has stated that he thinks PDA's are "junk" and the Symbian licencees seem to be going down the Phone/PDA combo so I'll just have to live in hope really.

Re:Now what I'd like to see is ..

[DuncMan]

Mr_Silver wrote:
So there is a prime chance here for a Symbian licencee (and even Apple) to walk in, produce a desirable PDA with all the features above and literally clean up.

Symbian's progenitor was Epoc, originally from Psion. Psion's range of PDAs were the most elegant and powerful PDAs I'd seen, years ahead of what else was on the market. This was probably their fatal mistake- excellent PDAs before the PDA market was ready, big enough, knew what it wanted.

If you can find one, grab an end-of-stock Psion Revo or Psion 5mx and you'll be surprised. Carefully designed, smoothly integrated hardware and software. For example, I love how I can tweak the contacts database on my Revo to suit me, but it'll still synchronise smoothly with my Nokia mobile phone via IR. And there's a spreadsheet, database, word processor, e-mail client, et al, all packed into a compact 8MB device.

Given that Psion were squeezed out of the PDA market they created by Palm (with cheap, simplistic electronic diaries/ contacts managers) and Microsoft (with flashy, expensive, aggressively marketed uber-devices), I can't see a Symbian licensee (effectively) re-entering and dominating the PDA market.

I'd be very happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think the area where Psion played is big enough to be financially viable.

Re:Now what I'd like to see is ..

[Mr_Silver]

Personally I think that within 18-24 months (at least in Europe), the smartphone will effectively wipe out the PDA. Not many people need the power of a high-end PDA and devices like the SonyEricsson P800 will do most people quite nicely, thanks.

Indeed. I have one here in the office (the joys of working for a telco) and it's a very nice phone. However, for me, it's rather big and bulky, the camera is pointless and the stylus is this rubbish bit of bendy plastic.

But for PDA/Phone combo, it's the dogs testicles.

Re:This artcile is utter fantasy!

[Corporate Troll]

I live in Europe, and you are not completely wrong, but a bit misinformed. Most PDA's here clearly are Palms, but Symbian devices(mostly Psion's) come in second. Pocket PC's (thus WinCE) are rarely seen here, actually, I've only seen them in the shops. I have seen exactly *one* MS based phone (on a Sony cellphone, I think)
Yes, I know, just anecdotial evidence.

About the merits of the system itself: the Symbian OS really *is* good, much more flexible than the Palm versions (and the multitasking is real, unlike the Palm which only does task-switching). Want a nice extra application like a PDF viewer? Most likely it exists, and it is probably even OpenSource.
The only reason that Palm's are so popular is because it fits "the needs of most people". Not mine, I want more sophistication and hence I got myself a Psion Revo+. WinCE devices? Have yet to seen one in use by someone.

A bit misleading..

[jyristys]

Samsung is NOT just licensing the raw Symbian OS, they are actually getting Nokia's Series60 platform (the same one Siemens licensed a while ago) which is based on Symbian OS but includes many improvements and fixes, not to mention a far superior Java/MIDP implementation. Series60 includes also the whole UI, SOS just comes with a very crude reference implementation.
Samsung just has to license the SOS separately because of complicated contracts between Nokia and Symbian.

Re:"smarterphone"?

[Ch_Omega]

"As it supports both J2ME and it's own C++ based API's it can support anything you write for it, I'd be very supprised if both Go and Chess don't exisit for J2ME, and I know EPOC has Chess, which would not be hard to port over to Symbian 7."

Actually, Series 60 is Symbian 6.1, not Symbian 7.

...And yes, there are lots of both Symbian software, and j2me aplications out there. :)

Re:This artcile is utter fantasy!

[10Ghz]

"Now *I* had a Symbian phone, but that statement is utter garbage! Quite simply they are lying to deceive the public.

Palm OS is the market leader in Europe by a long long way. Pocket PC also has a *much* larger takeup than Symbian devices"

Really?

http://www.canalys.com/pr/r2002102.htm

In short: Shipments Q3 2002.

Nokia (Symbian): 55%
Palm: 15%
HP: 9%
Sony: 3%
Casio: 3%
Others: 13%

In Q3 2001, Nokia was also the leader with 27% share (compared to Palms 22%). So Symbian-devices are selling better than Palms or PocketPC's!

Re:This artcile is utter fantasy!

[@madeus]

Yes really!

'Shipments' and 'Shipped units in use' are not the same thing.

Just look around you! Go to business meetings! Ask friends!

Symbian is _NOT_ more prolific than Palm OS.

It's not even as prolific as Pocket PC (yet).

Smart Phone Wishlist

[MikeBabcock]

I wish I could have a pocket-sized handheld computer with full cell support and good bluetooth support. I'd then want a bluetooth supporting version of a hard drive MP3 player to use for a storage device. I also want an ear-clip wireless (bluetooth) headset that connects via the handheld computer, so I can use the computer as a computer while talking on the headset without wires.

You listening Psion?

Re:This artcile is utter fantasy!

[@madeus]

WinCE devices? Have yet to seen one in use by someone.

Actually it's called Pocket PC now (though I had an origional Win CE device, a Jornada 420 a few years back) and if you haven't seen anyone use one - where have you been!? :)

I live in London, almost everyone I know has a Palm OS based device (friends, cow-orkers, boss, parents, drinking buddies, collegues in business meetings, contractors).

It's very, very common for me to bump into people (strangers in the street or tube) using a Palm (typically a Visor or Clie) and beam things, like games, back and forth. People often say, ooh what's that your playing? Or hey, I've got a really great game, want a copy? I've had that happen a couple of times in the tube, and it's even more common in bars.

I see a lot of people also using iPaq's and second to that Jornada's (though the iPaq's are more common, not surprising really, they are the best Pocket PC device). I see people use them every day on the tube and train.

Everyone I know who had a Psion has ditched it, they are deemed as very unfashionable. I'm not saying they are bad (I've never owned one, though I played around with one when they first came out and was quite impressed), it's just that as I've said, I see people using both Palm OS and Pocket PC every day, but have not seen anyone use a Psion in about 2 years.

I think I'd wave my sexy twisty 480x320 Sony Clie at him and point and laugh at his Psion! :)

Re:This artcile is utter fantasy!

[Gingko]

*sigh* Fools, damn fools and statistics.

First Symbian phone that Nokia shipped was the 9210 (at least in Europe) - towards the back end of 2001. The next Symbian phone is the 7650, which is only just shipping in the last month or so. Nokia's numbers are made up of the huge quantities of 32**, 33**, 62** etc. phones which run a Nokia OS. There is no one to one correspondance between Nokia phones and Symbian powered devices.

Henry

Re:you're a retard

[eno2001]

I guess that could become a cluster fuck if one was really lucky...

Re:This artcile is utter fantasy!

[@madeus]

Again, I should say it's now called Pocket PC, not WinCE. That was changed quite some time ago!

It's a sad thing that the People in the UK give up their superior technology to crappy products from the US.

With high res color screens, wireless high-speed color web surfing (using Bluetooth and GPRS), MP3 playing and gaming...

Boy are stupid, of course we should be using Psions!

When was the last time a Psion had a built in camera, played MP3's, surfed the web using GPRS over BlueTooth and allowed you to plug in a portable game controller to play games on a high res colour screen (yet all still fit in a shirt pocket)?

My Clie (NR70v) does all these.

Luxembourg is not as high tech as London (and London is not as high tech as New York, and New York is miles behind Toyko).

The UK and Germany are both leagues ahead of the rest of Europe technologically, you just don't get access to the same hardware in other countries, even other affulent countires like France, Italy and Spain.

Saying 'but I don't need a computer that is able to do x, y or z powerful feature' is historically the same as saying 'I have old technology and don't care and why would anyone want a color screen/more than 640k/a faster CPU/etc/etc'. Certainly most /.ers have heard that all before and I don't think anyone belives you when you say it.

Unless your personal computers all have less than 640k? If that's true then I'm wrong, you must not mind!

You are wrong

[10Ghz]

"Nokia's numbers are made up of the huge quantities of 32**, 33**, 62** etc. phones which run a Nokia OS. There is no one to one correspondance between Nokia phones and Symbian powered devices."

No. If sales of 32*, 33*, 62* and the like were included, Nokias sales-figures would be in the millions! Last year Nokia sold 128 million cell-phones, that's more than sales of ALL PDA's all around the world! Or do you claim that Palms and PocketPC's outsold Nokias 3000-series and 6000-series??? HAH!

That statisics is about PDA's and the like. That means that in case of Nokia, it's the sales of 9210 and 7650.

Here's an euro, go buy yourself a clue.

Re:This artcile is utter fantasy!

[10Ghz]

Hmmm, everywhere I look, I see people using Nokia 9210's. Only rarely I see someone with a Palm, let alone a PocketPC!

Perforce not as cool as claimed

[dmoen]

And Perforce offers an Open Source license to any project that develops Open Source.

I followed the link, and no they don't. Perforce offers a binary only licence that terminates after 1 year to individuals working on Open Source projects. The license can be renewed at Perforce's discretion. Perforce doesn't give you an Open Source licence to their product, because there is no source, and there is a termination clause.

Although I like Perforce, I wouldn't base an Open Source project on it based on this kind of licence. No source, so you can't customize it. If Perforce goes away, or the management team changes their strategy, then you are screwed.

Doug Moen

Re:"smarterphone"?

[Kintanon]

If it does Java it does CGOBAN! Available from the fine folks at http://www.igoweb.org/~wms/comp/cgoban/ The new version, version 2 does not support the Go Modem protocol, which means you can't play against GnuGo, but it does have a great KGS client built in.

Kintanon

Re:This artcile is utter fantasy!

[@madeus]

I don't upgrade my PDA every 2 years. I do it every 6 months and I will do until the functionality reaches a plateu. Specifically, greater storage capacity (something approaching an iPod, primarily for music and document storage).

I don't have a PDA as a fashion statement, I have one because it means I can play my MP3's (without having to carry around my iPod) browse the web, read emails (without having to carry my Laptop) and play games (without having to carry a Gamebody Advance), read ebooks (without having to carry a round 'real' books), the latest copy from major newspapers (having them in Avant Go means I don't have to carry the Economist every where I go on the of chance I get time to read it) and take quick pictures (without having to carry around a seperate camera) as well as do all the traditional PDA related features.

It's a choice of carrying:

- Gameboy Advance
- iPod
- Laptop
- Several Books (Novels and reference material)
- Address Book
- Note Pad
- Digital Camera
- This weeks copy of the Economist
- Several daily news papers (Guardian, FT, Wall Street Journal)

or:

- Sony Clie

I don't see why anyone would difficulty grasping why that's a vast improvement. It's a pretty simple premise.

It may note be quite as good as a dedicated digital camera or an iPod, but it's good enough to be better than carrying them around on me everywhere I go. As for browsing the internet with IR at 9600 (or at most ~28k, with bonding) to hell with that! I am never going back to that, I did that with my Newton, my Palm OS devices (all of them) and my Win CE (it was Win CE 2.0, rather than Pocket PC) based device, it sucked massively compared to using BlueTooth & GPRS (which both of my most recent PDA's have supported).

And, for your information I play a LOT of games on my PDA. I have a Sony Clie Game Controller (which comes with Sega Columns), on the evidence that more Palm software purchases are for games than _any_ other type of software, it would seem other Palm OS users do to. Seems your out of touch!

FWIW actually 480x160 is not that great and I would certainly call it low res! Even the standard 320x320 Clie models have better resolution!
With regard to watching movies, 480x320 in 16 bit is significantly better Sony Clie *can* play full screen movies, with sound. The NX70 can both play and record (using the built in Camera and Mic) in MPEG4 format. This means that if you want to take a quick movie to stick on the web later when you get home, or show the family what you got up to with friends/relatives on a day out you don't need to pre-plan to take your digital video camera with you, and the 640x480 MPEG 4 format means the quality is better than most Video-8 or VHS based traditional camcorders.

Paying a few hundred quid a couple of times a year is not a big hardship for something I use every day and so drastically changes my lifestyle, and it's easy to afford if you work for it.

As for being a Troll....

I'm not, a lot at my previous posts will tell you that. And the fact that you used to be a Troll is utterly dispicable. The fact that you think I am also makes you a poor judge of character.