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Nosy Vendors?
avante asks: "For reasons ranging from political to financial, we have convinced an organization who wants to use our software to use only Open Source and Free Software, including GNU/Linux as their operating system. Because they will need support, we decided to go with Dell, since we had heard that they distribute a free operating system with their computers. First, I found out that they only sell non-Microsoft OS's on their 'server' models, which cost several hundred dollars more than comparable 'desktop' configurations. Since our clients are a cash strapped not-for profit group, we decided to purpose a low price 'desktop' as a server, and suffer the expense of the superfluous OS. When the sales rep. at Dell was told of our decision, he became upset and began demanding explanations as to why we wanted to use a 'desktop' as a server, what version of GNU/Linux we had intended to use and other things that were not any of Dell's concern. This is not the first time this has happened to us. Has anyone else experienced this sort of hostility when you try to deviate from their pre-ordained sales path and use Open Source/Free Software?"
...which means your choice of software isn't their business. If they MAKE it their business, put them out of business.
'nuff said.
-- We live in a world where lemonade is artificial and soap has real lemon.
...but frankly, that is none of your business. If you choose not to support the software configuration I choose for this system, that is your option. However, I may use hardware I purchase in any way I see fit.
How hard it's going to be for him to get another job in Austin.
And then cancel your contract and buy your machines cheaper from a local white-box guy, which is what you should have been doing all along.
Dell has quit being it's own company and become a mildly independent subsidary of Microsoft sometime ago.
Then demand of him
his name,
his supervisor's name and phone number, and
the phone number of a DELL competitor which doesn't presume to tell customers how to use their machines.
Then tell him good-bye.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
I put the boards together with a soldering iron.
I make the chips by melting sand.
And I like it.
Well, although the comments previous to mine vehemently disagree with me, the Hardware vendor needs certain information about your OS config, IFF you expect to receive any type of support from them.
Look at it this way -- if the server support desk is trained in handling Linux issues on Server hardware, but the Desktop Team is trained in handling Windows issues on Desktop Hardware, who will provide support for Linux Issues on Desktop hardware?
Their questions should be angled at finding the Business Problem, and recommending the appropriate solution, but sometime the implementers have already defined the Business Problem in technical terms. (Linux WILL run on Dell Desktop Hardware, for under $XXXX.XX). Now, the salesperson has to try and work with this to recommend a solution that fits those criteria, is supportable by Dell, AND is a solution that will not fall apart and make Dell look bad.
Of course, the sales person should be nice about, and not "demanding"....
10b||~10b -- aah, what a question!
His last years income tax return.
All his bank account numbers and a power of attourney.
Neekid pictures of his wife with Ernest Borgnine.
If hes still denying having sex with his priest or not.
the speed of an african swallow carrying a coconut.
You get the idea. This idiot is working on comission, to sell you a piece of hardware. If you want to buy it, and install a fishbowl in it, its none of his busisness. (warranty issues excepted)
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I doubt he was being nosy because he cared about Linux either way. He was probably just being nosy because he was told to sell the more expensive "server" hardware whenever possible.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
This does not have anything to do with open source, it's just good sales tactics on his part. He is a sales person who wants to know where his sales is going to. Don't try to make this an open source thing, it's not.
It is entirely possible that he was curious about exactly what you wanted the system to do, and trying to come up with the best deal he could make you....
of course, if he was confrontational about it, etc, that's rude, poor salesmanship, and terribly unprofessional on his part. He should have asked for clear specifications regarding your needs in the first place.
I've also learned through extensive experience dealing with vendors like telcos, circuit carriers, and colo providers that keeping control of a conversation with them, and keeping them focused on what you want or need, is an acquired skill. It takes patience, the ability to be manipulative, and the ability to put your foot down while not stepping on anyone. And most importantly, you must remain focused on your needs.
(well, ok, maybe there was this one hosebeast at this one telco that I wanted to step on...heheh...)
I should have picked out the nickname Demosthenes!Tecumseh.
Not actually being on the phone with the fellow, I don't know exactly how accurate your assesment(sp?) of his attitude was, but I think there is the possiblity that he could have been genuinely interested in the customer here. If Dell does not support linux on the configuration you were after, how do you expect them to support it? If they do not, why go through Dell in the first place? Find a white box locally. Also, perhaps he has been instructed to ask the customers about how they plan on using linux, so Dell knows better if/how to support linux in the future. They did at one point think/try putting linux on the desktop systems I believe. I don't think this guy is going to send out the elite dell stormtroopers to get you.
Norris/Palin 2012
Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
walmart - pc's without os
thor
I work at www.guidestar.org and when we went about doing a complete server upgrade we were able to get LOTS of gear at steeply discounted prices or even free (our NAS/SAN I don't remember which).
We have one (an *excellent* one; Hi, Chris!) for our 100 person company, and get great prices on hardware no matter what we're using it for.
Dell only supports Linux on certain specific hardware combos for a reason - they've tested it and written the support book for it. If you're getting software support from them, the sales guy was probably worried that you'd expect Linux support on a system that they don't have support docs on.
That said, what's your budget? I've gotten decent servers with Linux support from Dell for $2K...it's often worth the little extra to get a unit you *know* Dell will stand behind for 3 years with a next business day repair contract.
As an aside, Dell has great laptops - they're not the sexiest out there, but the 3 year, onsite, next business day complete-care warranty rocks. You can break the LCD screen and they'll still replace it. Even if you run over the laptop with your car...(it's happened to us. Just make sure it's an accident.)
No, I don't work for Dell, or live in Texas. I just like their kit for corporate use. I roll my own at home. ;-)
The solution is simple, tell the person you can't work with them and demand someone else or move to another vendor. Dell can be annoying, but so can IBM or Compaq or probably any of the other major vendors. Keep in mind that most vendors do have the policy of restoring the system to it's original state before they help diagnose problems (i.e. reload the original OS off the recovery CD and remove in added hardware inside the computer).
Also keep in mind that the "warranty" they offer isn't free, it's priced into the machine purchase or as an "extended" warranty option. They simply run the numbers each year and figure out how much repair costs are based on failure rates, pad that amount and then contract with a 3rd party servicing group. Locally, there are at least two different servicing groups that Dell uses.
That said, even though I buy Dell's for work I am still custom building for home. Unfortunately, the price points keep leaning more and more in Dell's favor. I build for reliability and therefore don't care about gaming or having the absolute most reliable computer. Dell or any of the big vendors can simply build decent machines a lot cheaper than we can by using volume purchasing and we don't have to worry about RMA'ing defective motherboards and such.
"Can't do that, " he said. "Would void the warranty."
Void the warranty? Apparently. So, he finally talked me into looking at their server line. Amazingly enough, we ended up with a "server" option that was $400 less than the workstation configuration.
Oops, goofed the last paragraph and replying to myself, bad day already. I meant to say "I build for reliability and therefore don't care about gaming or having the absolute fastest computer."
Why was the sales rep "told of your decision" at all? I don't buy a new car and then call and tell the car salesman that I'm lowering the suspension, adding a NOX system and that I'll be listening to Dirty Vegas in the CD player. Sounds like you have a political issue you're trying to push to someone who couldn't pass his/her calculus class and became a "sales rep". Just buy the box and skip the whining.
I know that this doesn't quite answer your question, but I believe that your question has a fundamental flaw.
Dell's servers are not necessarily more expensive than their desktops. They have a wide range of servers, the lowest end are far cheaper than any desktop that they sell.
See this page for their introductory range of PowerEdgeSC servers -- which start at $349 (probably closer to $5-600 for something usable with a good warranty). Try to get a Dell desktop for that little. (Yeah -- I know their higher-end systems can get pricey fast...)
As far as dealing with the vendor -- how difficult is it to tell hime that he is out of line? Maybe get his name and his manager's number. You are the customer, aren't you?
I buy Dell computers for a small business almost daily, and I've never had a bad experience with them. Maybe its because I don't volunteer more information than they need. In any case, the bottom line is you are the customer, and you can tell your vendor to fuck off -- however, they will not do that to you...they need your business.
-Turkey
Had he offered the Linux based solution you wanted, you would have bought it.
Anything else depends on his attitude. If he's acting like a jerk, tell him to piss off, and if you can return everything and get it a lot cheaper at Wal-Mart. If he's just asking questions, answer them. Who knows, maybe Dell will figure out that some people actually want Linux and are willing to pay for it.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
...or just asking?
I can see how they might be concerned if a customer uses their product for a purpose they explicitly do not recommend. I'm sure they envision the headline: "Sub-par Dell server system ruins small business!"
Demanding is one thing, asking is another.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Glaring gaps in the marketplace.
If Dell wants your basic Linux hardware to cost significantly more than one of its desktop machines, all fine and good. Maybe they have good reasons for charging more, such as increased reliability testing for that hardware that brings up its MTBF.
But maybe your non-profit can get sufficient numbers of nines of reliability from a Dell desktop machine built as a server. And it costs a lot less, even including the Microsoft tax for an OS you'll never use but can't avoid buying.
Go for it. You're free to make your own choice in an almost free market.
Shoot, Dell might learn something about a market niche that it's not quite satisfying. If they don't address the market's needs, then someone else surely will.
It reminds me a lot of the controversy a number of years ago where someone figured out that by flipping a registry key of Windows NT they could turn a "workstation" into a "server". But Microsoft wanted people to buy the "server" OS explicitly and pay a bunch more money for it than for the "workstation" box.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
"Dude, you're losing a sell!"
This is a bit of an ideological mish-mash, as Dell doesn't use standard parts on some (all?) of their desktop machines. Specifically, I know the power supplies and motherboards have weird power connectors on them, so you're forced to buy replacement parts (at higher prices) from Dell. Unless this has changed recently, that is. Buying hardware that is non-standard so you can run your ideologically pure OS on it is rather odd. I'm told Gateway does or did something similar.
Does anyone know of a hardware vendor that lets you buy computers without an OS, but uses ALL standard parts? And has really good service and support?
And what poor schumck non-profit organization agreed to go all linux for everything?
Are you really saving them money, or forcing them to use your overpriced consulting services?
I'd guess that latter.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
its their job to be ass holes. its your job to ignore them. if you don't know more then they do about what you're buying, you'll be screwed.
I'm a Mac consultant. (Yep, it's funny, too.)
There's still a few IT idiots and salespeople who think they're doing you a favor by encouraging you to drop what you have and know for their stuff. Wrong behavior. In enterprise, and even in small business, most of us already have our solutions. We just need the right technology to fit in. Arrogance from a salesperson is a sure way to have me show them the door, prematurely slamming it against their ass on their way out.
If a company cannot be flexible to the needs of a client, they will (and have) lost a sale for my customers. Period.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
When the sales rep. at Dell was told of our decision, he became upset and began demanding explanations as to why we wanted to use a 'desktop' as a server, what version of GNU/Linux we had intended to use and other things that were not any of Dell's concern. This is not the first time this has happened to us.
Dell charges more for their computers than an equivilant machine from ernies-house-of-whiteboxes.
They charge more because they want to stay in business. Selling the cheapest possible computer might seem like a great idea, but it turns out it's a lousy business model, and everyone who's tried has gone broke.
They're able to charge more because they have a reputation for good service and reliable computers. I suspect that's pounded into the Dell sales force's head quite a lot. It's probably also pounded into the sales force head that you try to sell the customer the right tool for the job. If the customer needs a server, sell them a server. If the customer needs a configuration that's been rigourously tested with linux, sell them a configuration that's been rigourously tested with linux.
In this case, I think the Dell rep did the right thing. If this is the kind of thing that has happened to you often in the past, as you claim, then you're probably not very good at selecting the right tool for the job. The Dell rep probably sensed this, and (rightly) decided to call you on it. Since you're basically acting as a consultant to your client, the Dell rep knows that if the buying decision later turns out to have been wrong, either you or Dell are going to be blamed for the failure. If Dell has gone on the record as recommending against your decision, they've placed the fault squarely in your lap. If something fails, you'll look like an ass, and Dell will look golden. If nothing fails, they still have done the right thing for your client.
The question you should be asking is why you're not willing to take the advice of your vendors, and work together with them find the best possible solution for your client's needs.
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
The Dell rep. wasn't just arguing with you, they were also listening.
Last time I checked the Dell web site you could purchase servers without an OS.
"When the sales rep. at Dell was told of our decision, he became upset and began demanding explanations as to why we wanted to use a 'desktop' as a server"
Only customers are entitled to getting upset and demanding explanations. When sales starts to bully potential customers then it's time to find a better vendor. Support is usually far less accomodating than sales.
Reminds me of the movie "Glengarry Glen Ross".
Is calmly and flatly explain to the salesperson that you are not interested in having Dell engineer any solutions for you, and that you are only trying to purchase hardware. Tell him that all decisions have been made, and if he doesn't want to help you, you will move on to the next vendor in your list.
Salespeople don't like it when a customer goes outside the norm... they don't understand the problem and can't try to sell you on new hardware.
Dude, our scout ships have reached their home. They found the remains of a Linux Rebel base, but they estimate that it has been deserted for some time. They are now conducting an extensive search of the surrounding houses.
Yep.
CompUSA
Fry's Electronics
Countless mom and pop computer stores
etc.
etc.
etc.
RR tried to pull that shit on me some time ago when it was brand, brand new in the area (in fact I believe San Diego was a very early adopter) and they refused to give me my info so I could use a static ip. (I cant recall if the specific distro supported dhcp or not I was really unexperienced at the time) I just got my net setting using other means. To this day if you get a bitchy operator they get pissed when they find out you run it without their shitty software packages installed. But other times you get cool guys and they help alot, I enjoy their quality of service quite well.
"You have the right to remain fabulous!" -Chief Clancy Wiggam
Please note the last line of my post which read:
> And has really good service and support?
I'm not sure many (if any) of those you listed qualify. Certainly CompUSA doesn't.
got one
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Because sales reps and company heads are people, and have their political passions. Believe it or not, there are people out there who are serious fans of Micrsoft as much as Mac users are of Apple.
When I was buying a new PC back in 1998, there were two versions of Windows 95 available: the one with IE 4 preinstalled (and all the bugs, slowness and other problems it caused), and the version without IE. I asked if they'd sell me a computer with the Win95 version without IE, at which the sales rep and owner started looking at me very suspiciously; he started telling me that it wasn't possible to sell computers without IE preinstalled because that is what they did at that their factory. This place was and still is such a Microsoft fanboy setup that they get all their staff to wear Microsoft T-shirts.
So don't be surprised if the Dell agent dislikes this Leenooks thing. He has probably been to a few infomercial-like Microsoft senemars, been given free software, and has hencely developed quite a zeal for Bill Gates the Messiah and his wonderful company and its great products.