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New Audio Disc Formats and Copyrights

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the isn't-that-a-mess dept.

JollyGoodChase writes "CNN has an article on Super Audio CD digital watermarking and the lack of digital outputs on any SACD or DVD-Audio players. Covers dealer responses, tech issues, and consumer options in a good summation of this technology."

15 of 321 comments (clear)

  1. i'm going to guess... by no+reason+to+be+here · · Score: 5, Insightful

    that just like DVD-region encoding and similar BS that this will begin to disappear in a few years, if the standard is to survive.

    also, did anyone else notice IBM as one of the companies ultimately behind DVD-audio? Do you think big blue will give linux hackers information on the copy-protection scheme used in DVD-audio as part of their commitement to opensource/free software?

    --
    my pet machine
  2. They're engineered to be copy-proof by akincisor · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hah!

    The last time their "advanced technology" was foiled by a felt tip pen! I hope they have something better.

    Wait... I hope they dont!

  3. Does it sound better than CD-Audio? by Chester+K · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Consumers aren't going to run out and buy all new hardware just to support a new format that gives them really no added capabilities over their existing hardware.... CD-Audio is good enough quality sound; this new format doesn't offer enough of an improvement for it to catch on -- and that'd be the case even if the formats weren't fair-use crippled. Once you throw that into the equation, these formats have an even dimmer potential.

    A format doesn't begin mass market acceptance until the fanatic audiophiles buy into it at the beginning, and those are exactly the types of people who will raise the biggest stink about the copy protection, and the lack of digital audio out.

    --

    NO CARRIER
    1. Re:Does it sound better than CD-Audio? by gilroy · · Score: 5, Informative
      Blockquoth the poster:

      A format doesn't begin mass market acceptance until the fanatic audiophiles buy into it at the beginning

      No. A format doesn't begin mass market acceptance until the big record labels decide to stop accepting buybacks of the old medium. That's how CDs became "mass market": record stores stopped shelving vinyl because the record companies stopped buying back unsold copies. At that point, every vinyl album that didn't move became undigetible inventory, and it didn't make sense to buy many or even any.
      --
      The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
    2. Re:Does it sound better than CD-Audio? by fyonn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      These are exactly the people who won't care about copy protection

      these are exactly the kind of people who *will* care about copy protection as it means they can;t reuse their investment in high quality external dac's and means that they have to rely on the bass management capabilities in the player (which are usually fairly basic) and can't use the often much more advanced fine bass control available to the pre/pro.

      audiophiles don't give a stuff about mp3's really, but what they do care about is quality of sound and doing things right. a 6 channel analogue out means that they are not maximising the capabilities of their equipment.

      here's an example. the player might allow you to set a bass crossover of 80hz, yet you main speakers can go down to 45hz, and at better quality than your sub. your pre/pro will allow you a much finer control of the crossover point but thats irrelevant as you can;t use it.

      more importantly I think. one of the coming "big things" is room correction. the biggest influence on sound quality for many people is the room you're listening to the music in. systems by companies such as TacT allow you to measure the frequency characteristics of the room and pre-correct the audio signal for the room before it hits the power amp (and therefore, speaker). this requires a digital copy of the sound to work on and if all you can get from your player is analogue then thats a wasted preamp stage and it means that it's quite likely that a cd could sound far better than an sacd or dvda as the cd signal is being properly processed to sound great in your room, and the sacd/dvda isn't.

      thats why audiophiles care

      dave

      PS. room correction is a pretty small field in consumer electronics now, but I reckon it'll become bigger news in 5-10 years

  4. No digital outputs, but.... by tonywestonuk · · Score: 5, Insightful
    What is stopping someone recording the Analogue outputs using a high quality sound card, and then burning the results onto CD?.... I'm pritty sure that there would be very few people who could tell the minute difference in qualtity, and then the format would be fully copyable by anyone....... So what about the digital watermark- since I doubt that every CD sold would have a different watermark, and therefor they'd still be unable to trace the original 'CD Pirate' from the n'th copy down the line.

    AFAIK, Digital watermarks are removed when the music is encoded with Ogg/MP3 , after all these compressions work by removing the sound elements that humans percive poorly.

    Maybe, this is just a way of ensuring only 'approved' cd's are playable on this equipment, and therefore protecting their monopoly from the threat of joe blogs distibuting his own music without going through a record company....

  5. SACD = AMAZING!!! by tweakt · · Score: 5, Informative
    I bought a new Sony DVD player and for basically no extra cost it happens to play SACD as well. Dude, I was skeptical, but even on my humble system, I was POSITIVELY FLOORED.

    It came with a sampler disc. Had some great blues and jazz tracks as well as some Roger Waters (Pink Floyd). It's so lifelike, realistic, almost gives me goosebumps. But if you are the type that can't tell the difference between 128k MP3 and the CD, then don't even bother.

    My point is: (A) The difference is very clear. The high end is so full, cymbals sound like they are right in the room with you. (B) You don't need to have an audiophile level system to hear it (just halfway decent speakers). Of course every bit helps. For reference I have a set of KLH speakers, good but not very expensive.

  6. Re:Who needs another disk player by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I can hear the difference, but you aren't going to hear it on a boombox or a set of computer speakers. To me, everything that I didn't like about the sound of CD's is gone with the SACD and all that's left is the music. I find I can get into the music more because there is nothing even slightly annoying about the sound quality to distract my attention.

    The watermarking on a SACD disc is done by varying the physical 'pit' sizes, rather than embed some digital code in the data stream. There is a pattern of varying pit sizes in which the watermark is embedded. A SACD player can discern these slightly different sizes and won't play a SACD unless it has the right watermark. The good thing about doing it this way is the audio content is entirely unaffected by the watermark - it doesn't distort the sound in any way. It does make it much more difficult to copy the SACD layer, though. But most SACD discs are hybrid, meaning there is also a regular CD layer which can be read and copied as usual. Only the higher quality SACD layer is copy protected. For me I am willing to accept the copy protection to get the better sound quality.

  7. Few flaws by nachoman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are a few major flaws with all these new systems.

    - Until you can readily get SACD or watever in the music store, you won't find people jumping to sign up. Plus if there is no significant improvement over a regular CD, then people will stick with CDs. What will the price be? Will they cost more than CDs? That will certainly deter people.

    - I don't get this watermarking crap. Yes, watermark will not let you make unauthorized SACD (or insert other format here). So that just means that there will be no independent artists which can use this new format. They will be stuck with the old CDs.

    - Also, a watermark won't stop someone copying the disc, it will just stop them making a disc with the same content. Look at the Dreamcast. Why would I need the disc anyway when I can play it on my computer, on an iPod, or throw it on a regular CD.

    And they can't try and convince me that putting only Analog outputs will stop copying. Analog to digital is no big deal. Some quality will be lost but whatever people will still do this to be able to listen to their disc elsewhere.

    If it does fly, it will probably end up with way of the DVD. Great technology, but not fulfilling its purpose (ie the non-copying).

  8. A new copy protection scheme! by Karhgath · · Score: 5, Funny

    The RIAA is currently, and has been for quite a while, working on a new foolproof copy protection mechanism. With this system, no one will want to even try to bypass the copy protection mechanism and rip the CD, it will be futile and useless to even try.

    I was at their secret meeting on a undisclosed island in the pacific[shaped as the head of Hilary Rosen] and I was floored to hear of this new mechanism. They were working on it for many, many years, they were quite visionary. Slowly it is entering the unsuspected consumer's home even now. They call this new scheme JPCM: Just Produce Crap Music.

    No one will ever want to rip any CD anymore... Enter the complete DRM system for music!

  9. Old is New Again by limekiller4 · · Score: 5, Funny

    SACD, meet DivX. DivX, meet SACD.

    --
    My .02,
    Limekiller
  10. Summary of the state of play by e.a.kendrick · · Score: 5, Informative
    I'm an optimist - most likely a new DVD based format for audio *will* appear, but it is unlikely to contain DRM, and the player will have to be able to play CDs. When DVD-Recorder videos become commonplace, a DVD audio recording option will just become another feature of the home entertainment centre. I can dream can't I!!!

    Feels like a slashback - but like many of you I've been following this for a while, I kept my own little list of interesting articles. Until now I've nowhere to put them, so this is as good an opportunity as any:


    Terrorism, Copyright, or hacking. Apply whatever label you want to what offends you
    It would be funny if it wasn't true:
    But there's hope:
    • A review of the technologies shows that it is futile to protect CDs, (based on the assumption that new devices will more likely circumvent protection rather than enforce it)
    • Richard Stallman (Free Software advocate) jumps in with a cautionary tale
    • And a felt tip pen can bypass some protections


    Hope you find them interesting reading. I'll go back to lurking 8)
  11. Leadbelly, Jimmie Rodgers, Betty Boop, Felix . . . by ahfoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One thing that I find very intriguing about P2P is that works from the 1910s and 20s and early 30s are very popular. Although I'm only in my thirties, I'm a huge fan of this stuff and I never had convenient access to it before P2P. One of the reasons you never see it isn't because it's not entertaining, interesting and informative, but because there's no longer any profit in it.
    The rediscovery of our archived electronic entertainment history is a bigger challenge to the current entertainment industry than how to protect the latest warmed over reinventions of those old acts. The more I look and listen to the old media, the more astounded I am at how cyclical and repetitive the whole notion of recorded entertainment is.
    And to address the topic head on, watching and listeing to those old recordings makes you very aware that quality is extremely relative. When you're really excited about hearing something you'll get up and dance and sing along to something that sounds like hell. The question is how to make people enthusiastic and obviously the entertainment industry if failing to even attempt to address this.
    The recorded entertainment industry is like a lover who just didn't get it right one night. The consumer and the industry have been fucking for decades and then something happened and the recording industry says to the consumer --you've changed.
    The consumer is like, no way baby. I'm still the same ol' cowboy. You know, let's get it on. But the entertainment industry is pulling this, no it's not the same anymore. You used to care about quality and now you try to get it anywhere you can. It makes me feel so cheap! If you really love me you'd at least spend some money.
    And the consumer is like --what? Love you? What are you talking about? Why don't we just fuck like we always did. Nothing changed. It's the same ol deal. You say I changed, but you're the one who changed.
    So, they don't fuck no more. But this relationship is special because it's all been recorded. So, the consumer goes back and starts watching the vids from back when things started and the fucking was still good.
    Meanwhile, the recording industry joins the church and gets active in conservative politics and slowly starts developing these weird twitches.
    Fucked up scenario. I'd hate to be the cop to do a domestic call on a couple like that.

  12. Error-free recording from analog outputs by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting
    It's not fundamentally impossible to get error-free digital data from analog outputs, although it's difficult. 56K modems essentially do this on the receive side.

    Take an analog player, and remove or bypass the final analog output filter. The output waveform should then show some artifacts from the sampling rate. Split the output, and feed one path through a notch filter for the sampling rate, then into a phase locked loop to recover the clock. Use that clock to control the sampling rate for an A/D with more bits than the D/A in the player. If you can keep the noise level low enough, and can calibrate a correction curve for the player's A/D, you can recover the original.

    To calibrate, look for low-frequency waveforms, which will allow you to see all the stairsteps from the D/A.

    This assumes classical D/A conversion, and fewer bits than the noise threshold. It's probably possible for 16-bit CD players, but not for 20-24 bits. Telephony only has 8 bits, so 56K modems have an easier job, although they have to compensate for a lousy transmission line.

  13. Encouraging answer to copy protection? by mccalli · · Score: 5, Interesting
    ...most SACD discs are hybrid, meaning there is also a regular CD layer which can be read and copied as usual. Only the higher quality SACD layer is copy protected.

    Now isn't this the perfect way to go about copy-protecting music? You see, if I want to encode to MP3 (and I do, I'm an iPod owner) then, as I read your statement, I'd be able to do it. I wouldn't get the best available quality, but so what? I'm compressing it to a lossy format anyway which is only going to get played over a set of headphones.

    Is this the compromise we've been looking for? Non-protected mid-range quality which allows us to rip and encode as we choose, followed by a layer of higher-quality music which can't be ripped? I'd be satisfied with that.

    Cheers,
    Ian