2003: Year of Linux in Asia?

Anonymous Coward writes "The Register has a story about traveling to a magical country where seeing Linux laptops displayed in stores is perfectly normal. The author then goes on to predict that this year will see much more desktop action coming not from Red Hat or Euro-Distros, but from China and India. Makes sense to me."

Comments

Sheesh, not again

[Reality Master 101]

What part of "applications" doesn't the press (or many on Slashdot) understand? Are there magically going to appear applications that will compete with the commercial ones? If all you do is browse the web or get e-mail, then yes, Linux is viable. But that is a much smaller market than most advocates want to admit. And even if someone thinks that's all they want, most are not going to go the "oddball" route "just in case".

Once again: people use applications, not operating systems. When Linux gets decent user applications, then it will be viable on the desktop.

P.S. I'm talking about user, desktop application. Please save your comments about server apps or programming languages.

Re:Sheesh, not again

[Anonvmous Coward]

" If all you do is browse the web or get e-mail, then yes, Linux is viable. But that is a much smaller market than most advocates want to admit. And even if someone thinks that's all they want, most are not going to go the "oddball" route "just in case"."

It's refreshing to see one other person on Slashdot that understands this concept. What's keeping my tied to Windows isn't going to be solved by a kernel update to Linux. What's keeping me using Windows has nothing to do with MS's monopoly or that I'm an idiot or any of those other stupid rationalizations I hear all the time. Linux is free so I should have no problem using it right? Wrong.

I use Outlook 2000 (no, not express, so spare me the virus bs.) because I choose to. It's the best for what I use it for. (Calendar, To do list, Spam filtering, synchronization with my PocketPC and Phone, etc...) There are probably clones of it out there, but so what? I already have my solution. I use Lightwave. I could switch to Maya or something, but I've already spent the money so where's the value? I use Photoshop. I could use Gimp, but Photoshop is what everybody uses. I like to play games, dare I even touch on that?

I have no incentive to switch to Linux. My computer works, it's quite stable (despite the FUD spread around here about Windows 2000 or XP), and it more than suits my needs. At some point Linux is going to have to stop playing catch-up to MS and start being better if they want me to jump ship.

Funny thing is, I'm not even pro-Microsoft. But I'm not interested in dropping everything just to enter the "I'm cool because I use Linux" popularity contest. A switch to Linux costs me a great deal, it doesn't buy me anything today.

With that said, more needs to be done to make Linux an attractive platform for companies like Adobe to port over to it. The opportunity is there. Movie Studios are starting to pick up Linux as a workstation. It ain't going to completely replace Microsoft or Apple until an artist such as myself is presented with an interface I can pick up and use. I have to be able to maintain my machine. I have to be able to install and run apps. I have to be able to communicate with people who don't run Linux (i.e. good Office port...). All of this completely fails if I have to memorize a bunch of text commands in order to configure my machine.

Solve the interface issues with Linux, and you'll see support from companies like Adobe. When we see support from these places, the interesting apps will appear.

Re:Sheesh, not again

[ziggles]

I also have no reason to switch to Linux. However I get the feeling that Microsoft is going to screw themselves over sooner than later (DRM), and I'll feel like I have no choice but to get off Windows if I want to have privacy and control over my computer. Linux doesn't have to do anything but wait for MS to screw up.

Re:Sheesh, not again

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I also have no reason to switch to Linux. However I get the feeling that Microsoft is going to screw themselves over sooner than later (DRM), and I'll feel like I have no choice but to get off Windows if I want to have privacy and control over my computer. Linux doesn't have to do anything but wait for MS to screw up."

You touched on an interesting point there. Everybody on /. gets their panties in a bunch every time there's a story about MS. What's funny is that every time MS makes a misstep, the Linux community has an opportunity to take advantage of it. /. should be thrilled when there's a new IE exploit and Mozilla gets it fixed first. DRM? Not to worry, Linux is DRM free.

But this only goes so far. At some point, Linux has to do something better than Windows. A checklist of "we don't have MS's problems" isn't enough. I mean seriously, who's going to go to Gateway and not buy Windows because of DRM? They won't even know how it affects them until it bites them in the ass long after they've bought it. Why not make a distro of Linux catered to small group of people?

Make an artist distro where Film Gimp, Gimp, Killustrator, and a few other things have their icons on the desktop or on the toolbar or something. Make the other stuff available, but make the important stuff come out first. Make a PVR distro where right away you have the functionality you need to get the PVR going. Maybe distro is the wrong word.. configuration? Hell I don't know. I love the idea of installing Linux and as soon as it comes up it's all ready to go with compositing tools ready to launch.

Now that I think about it, one of Linux's biggest failings is that it tries to do a little too much. The Linux Community is all about choices. Some like Mozilla, some like Netscape, some like Opera, so let's put them all in there. Right? Bad idea. The first time I fired up Linux I was met with a number of programs all beginning in K. Who was the dumbass that came up with that naming convention? I mean it's Kcute and all, but Kwhen Kall Kprograms Kbegin Kwith Kk, Kthen Kit Kis Khard Kto Kfind Kthe Kprogram Kyou're Klooking Kfor since the list is sorted Kalphabetically. If they wanted to keep me as a Linux user, they would have slimmed down the choices a bit. I mean face reality here, I'll have to use any given program a while before I understand why this other choice is of interest.

Okay, I rambled a bit. I hope somebody out there involved in developing for Linux read this and got a little bit of insight into why I'm not a Linux user now. I'm all for ditching MS for something that is.. well. democratic like Linux is. (I'd like to see somebody try to force DRM support in Linux, heh...) but I just can't do it yet. Unless Linux gives me something I don't have in Windows, then I just don't have the time to muck with it.

Re:Sheesh, not again

[SweetAndSourJesus]

he can't view the latest web pages (I know Moz is standards compliant, but a lot of sites aren't.)

You know, I hear that a lot, but I never see it. I've been running Chimera (and before that, Mozilla) for quite a while and I can't remember hitting a site I couldn't view. Some banks require user-agent spoofing* to work properly, but once I've got my foot in the door, everything seems to work great.

Got any examples of sort-of-high-traffic sites that just plain don't work in Mozilla based browsers?

*See this for more on that.

Re:Sheesh, not again

[Metrol]

Unless Linux gives me something I don't have in Windows, then I just don't have the time to muck with it.

It sounds like what you're looking for is the hard sales pitch. Not sure if you're going to find that in Free software land.

You will find desktop environments that allow for seemless use of multiple desktops, server class networking, and front line applications that do a pretty fine job rivaling their rather expensive counterparts. All without having to troll the WareZ groups for hours on end.

The advantages of a Unix desktop aren't immediate though. You won't have a paper clip come flying out to show you around. It takes some time and curiosity to see for yourself why there are those of us who left Windows behind. The really rough part here is that it's not something I can describe adequately to you here. Oh, I could probably list off a stack of features that Windows simply can't do, but it wouldn't mean anything to you. It only has value or meaning when you get there yourself.

All that's assuming you can get past the app naming conventions. You can, can't you?

Re:Sheesh, not again

[Jason Earl]

Linuxers understand that it is all about the applications. In fact, applications are precisely the reason that Linux is eventually going to win out. Hardware is getting ridiculously inexpensive, but commercial software remains very expensive. You might be happy to pay thousands of dollars for Lightwave, MS Office, Photoshop, and whatever else you run on your machine, but lots of people would rather use Blender, OpenOffice, The Gimp, and the wealth of free tools that come with Linux. Interestingly enough, the hardware companies would especially like to see software become less expensive because that would leave consumers with more money for hardware.

Sure, the Linux tools might not be quite as powerful, and they might lack the polish of the commercial applications, but they are a heck of a lot cheaper, and they are actually pretty darn good. This is especially true in countries where the average computer user gets paid less than those of us in the first world. If it weren't for the fact that most commercial software is easy to pirate Free Software would already be the rule in the poorer areas of the world. The harder the commercial software companies try to stamp out piracy, the more prevalent Free Software is likely to become.

Even in the United States the only people that actually pay for applications like Photoshop are those folks that use it professionally. Most people use whatever photo editor came with their digital camera or scanner. The Gimp almost certainly kicks that software right in the head. Which is why, in the long run it is almost certain to gain wider use and acceptance, especially now that the Gimp runs on Windows.

Adobe isn't going to port to Linux, because they know that if their customers start experimenting with Linux they are very likely to start experimenting with other Free Software that comes included in most Linux distributions. Direct competition with Free Software would make it that much harder for Adobe to sell their commercial applications.

In the end Linux will continue its inexorable march towards ubiquity not because it is especially good, but because it is "good enough" at the right price. There are plenty of folks that would like to use their computers to do the things that you do with your computer, but that can't afford to purchase thousands of dollars worth of software. These people have no (legal) choice but to dig in and invest some of their time learning Linux.

Re:Sheesh, not again

[Proc6]

Not a troll, just an honest challenge.

You will find desktop environments that allow for seemless use of multiple desktops...

What is WITH that? Why does EVERY Linux distro Ive seen always have the multiple desktop shit turned on. That is so totally a geek thing. Half the people I know using Windows are barely managing minimize/restore/maximize, I just dont see my mom keeping track of 4 different desktops. That shit has always bothered me. Make it available, fine. But a pre-installed, pre-turned on, huge portion of the taskbar, in an OS that wants to garner normal PC users? Anyway...

server class networking...

Um. Im not sure what that means exactly. If youre referring to hardware, I think they make gigabit cards for pretty much every OS. If youre referring to the TCP/IP stack, isnt windows's the same as BSD since Win2k?

and front line applications that do a pretty fine job rivaling their rather expensive counterparts.

Here's the challenge part. Show me front line Linux applications that rival (or even come close to matching)...

• Quickbooks
• Macromedia Director
• Quark Xpress
• Painter
• Dragon Dictate
• Chief Architect
• Hallmark Greeting Card Maker
• Streets and Trips
• Encarta
• AfterFX
• Learn to Speak Spanish

And the list goes on. Maybe someone could offer a couple "possible" matches on the Linux side for one or two of these. But even that's doubtful. Im not trying to be fecetious (too lazy to look up the proper spelling), I'm trying to make a point. Linux is void of the vast majority of apps people really buy. Go look at the store shelves at Best Buy, and point me to Linux equivalents of most of them. Sure, Open Office is awsome, I use it. MySQL is arguably decent. So you have an office app and a database. Well hooorayyyy!!! What about the shit people REALLY buy all the time?

Re:Sheesh, not again

[shaitand]

Yes, some applications aren't available on linux, and a very large number of apps aren't available on windows either. Granted the numbers probably aren't in proportion since open source is well... open source and the code is there for people to port to windows. Some things are gimped in windows though, such as apache, the windows version is not the current version. Windows is always trying to play catch up with *nix *sighs* they finally adopted the BSD tcp/ip stack and admitted that they couldn't figure out how to do tcp/ip. But how about other protocols? How about a reasonably compatible sql program? a decent LDAP implementation? nfs? complex routing tables? scalability to supercomputer architectures? diskless booting? completely scriptable command line? decent spam filtering for gods sake! An complete OS that is actually compiled to match my modern architecture and to take advantage of my chip? Reliable clustering? Or even the relatively minor stuff like the ability to utilize my half gig of ram before fiddling with HDD swapping and gimping my system to the speed of one of the slowest and least reliable components in the system? Last I checked I can't compile naitive appletalk support into the windows kernel... Just a few annoyances, now if you'd like a few examples of things windows does wrong... Lack of the powerful command line, no source to compile customized and optimized versions of software for my architecture and processor. Wizards that do not offer very little or no customization. A big damn repetative database they call the registry. Lack of a decent backup procedure causing most people to not back up the system settings or the system but rather just their data. No respectable network boot procedures. Extremely intrusive and restrictive licensing. Defaults users to administrative privlages on install. No true seperate memory space for applications so it can make people think "programs start faster" but does so at the expense of apps being able to crash the system. Weak user login scripting. ActiveX. Visual Basic being advertised as anything but a modeling language. .net. Proprietary "embrace and extend" interfaces, protocols, language supports, etc. Oh hell this list goes on and on and on...

Re:Sheesh, not again

[Lochin Rabbar]

WYSIWIG HTML editor is an oxymoron. Since it is the browser and not the editor that determines how html is presented, and browsers vary no editor can preview how a document will look.

Smart Move For Asia if it Happens

[aerojad]

It unties the potentially tied-behind-back hands of Asian countries who have rampant pirating issues of Microsoft products. If free OSes become a hit in Asia, Gates can not eventually have Asia in his back pocket when he comes calling for Licensing Fees, and Asia gets to save tons of money with not having to pay for Windows & Upgrades, which eventually puts them on an equal footing with Western countries, so more competition, so on so on.... advantage? Everyone.

they probably know

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure the truly clueful hackers in China already know and use BSD, just like here. Chinux will function as a grease trap to keep zitpoppers and political protesters from getting in the way... just like here.

PS Ignore Neal Stephenson; there ARE Chinese hackers. He leaves a trail of greatly amused people everywhere he does research. "One day on site and he knew everything and was ready to move on. I hear he wrote a program once."

Re:Yup, right

[Anonymous Coward]

Dunno where you heard it, but you never heard it from any linux vendor. Linus Torvalds himself estimated a few years ago that it would take about 10 years for linux to gain a appreciable share of the desktop market - (never any mention of "taking over")

In any event, linux is not about "taking over the desktop" to use your lame little phrase. It's about empowering users, giving them control of their own data and their own computers, basically giving them a choice. I chose to run linux years ago, and have been quite happy as an IS professional without microsoft. Some, like yourself, who are afraid of change, will cling to microsoft even as they bleed you harder. But feel free to stick with win doze, if that's what turns you on.

No, linux is not about taking away your lil win doze pee cee, never fear - it was never about that. Only microsoft has goals of elminating all competition.

Hope this clears things up!

I have to wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

...how much longer it will be before the world divides into USA: Windows and English measurements; Everyone else: Linux and metric measurements.

I'm quite serious about this, and there's actually a link: It's easier to adopt a better system (OS or measurement units) when you don't have to incurr horrifically high conversion costs.

As much as I'd like to see Linux grab 30 or 40% of the US desktop marketshare, it just won't happen. The open/free software crowd won't (not can't, but won't) do the things necessary to overcome those high conversion costs for users deeply entrenched in Windows.

For a much more detailed version, see
this.

The The Peter Principle of Economics

[jlrowe]

It looks like to me that the USA and other regions that insist on not choosing the best methods may have to look for hard times.

I say that not just because of pricing themselves out of the labor market, with Asian and other labor forces offering cheaper labor. The truth also includes cheaper *methods* which Linux is a part of, long term. Higher costs imposed my closed source and proprietary (read: Microsoft) operating systems and application software will cause higher prices for those who choose them. This making Asian markets that choose Linux even *more* competitive down the road.

Linux salesmanship in a nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

The really rough part here is that it's not something I can describe adequately to you here. Oh, I could probably list off a stack of features that Windows simply can't do, but it wouldn't mean anything to you. It only has value or meaning when you get there yourself.

All that's assuming you can get past the app naming conventions. You can, can't you?

"I can't give you any good reasons to switch, but I can certainly belittle your reasons for not having done so already."

Tonight Microsoft stock is safer than U.S. currency. Keep it up.

Re:Not in India atleast

[Anonymous Coward]

> To expect a group of Indian coders to
> sit and down and code say, an IDE, give it away > for free is fantasy*

have you heard of anjuta ? (www.anjuta.org)
two of the developers are indian, none from
academia.

> The Indian mindset is not exactly open to
> adopting a culture where the software is free
> (beer)

the indian culture is already used to software
that is free as in beer - the vast majority
is pirated!

let me ask you something ?
what do you think the current software export market in india is based on ?
shrink-wrapped software ? did'nt think so.
almost all of it is contract programming
or legacy software porting or maintenence.

do you ever think india will make it big
selling shrink-wrapped software ?
whether the world adopts a proprietary platform
or free platform is irrelevant to the kind of
software that india currently makes money on,
which is software on top of a platform.

i don't quite see your reasoning.

- another indian from bombay