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Automakers and Crash Data Recorders
The New York Times has a decent story about automakers not wanting to standardize car data recorders. There are a couple of nuances which the reporter mostly misses. The automakers want to avoid standardization because they can then sell access to the proprietary data format (NYT does cover this, but ignores the profit motive). The story mentions privacy issues but dismisses them as solved, yet notes that there are no privacy protections whatsoever for this data, and you can expect it to be used against you in any incident (and perhaps other times: wait until service under your warranty is refused because your car reported your bad driving habits to the dealer). That's not "solved" in my book (and I think the automakers realize that selling cars which report on their owners might backfire). Speculation about ambulance crews using crash data is just hype - no ambulance is equipped to do that, nor would I want an EMT to spend time decoding the crash data instead of, say, saving my life. The article repeatedly suggests that crash data would be used to enhance safety, without ever specifying how that is supposed to occur.
Most people don't even do a "walk around" their car before getting in and driving off. People run out of gas all the time. They get flat tires, and forget to take off the donut for a week.
Holding car drivers to the same standards as aircraft is such a huge leap that the paperwork generated by it could likely employ everyone in America.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
Thus it is important that we (the open/free community) develop a free/open engine management system such as those sold for $3000 by haltech, so we can remove the factory computer and install our own.
Fight the power, go learn how to write assembly and do A/D and D/A conversion using digital electronics today!
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Speculation about ambulance crews using crash data is just hype - no ambulance is equipped to do that, nor would I want an EMT to spend time decoding the crash data instead of, say, saving my life
Of course they're not equipped to do that NOW - standardization would allow EMT's to carry equipment that could read data from any car.
The point made in the article is that some crashes cause internal injuries that are not immediately apparent to you or an EMT. They say that many people are not transported to a hospital via helicopter becuase the extent of their injuries is not determined until it is too late. If the EMT could see that the type of crash was likely to cause internal injuries, they could get you to a trauma center faster even if you didn't show any immediate symptoms.
When the airbags go off in a new Mercedes SUV, the onboard phone rings the dealer 'concierge', who in turn attempts to contact the driver. It is just a simple leap to imagine a conference call to the nearest ambulance. GPS locators are already in place in the Mercedes...a pre-signed agreement to release your medical data, and the ambulance crew can have a head start on helping you in case of an injury.
Saying this will never be applied indicates a lack of knowledge of that has been happening in vehicle telemetry over the past few years. Look at F-1 racing to see just how much data is gathered and applied, not only as pertains to the vehicle, but to the driver as well.
As far as some evil plan by the dealers to do something devious with data, I think it is giving them too much credit to think they have the brains to go too far. In my experience, it is all they can do to track part numbers, much less throttle habits. Any worry it just Chicken Little talking another walk outdoors...
I can see this being a 'requirement' to get affordable insurance rates.
Since its not a 'law' it will be hard to fight, but will still achieve mass saturation of the things in time.
Then just add realtime reporting.. GPS.. you will tracked how fast you went to the store for that gallon of 'questionable substance', where you paid via your fingerprint..
On a side note, they are working here in my area to make it legal and acceptable to fire someone beacuse they smoke on OFF hours.. So add that to the big database in the sky.. what you buy/do today, may not be legal tomrrow.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Its for drivetrain litigation.
g C: www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html
l
: www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html
M C: www.aiag.org/publications/b11.html
Remember the many lawsuits over Audi acceleration at stop lights into traffic? Strangely most lurching Audis were occupied by females and the gender of the driver had some role in the "hardware defect" that resulted in many near fatal and fatal accidents.
Experts concluded it was usually the drivers fault.
These spy chips (which also record speeding habits) could have avoided millions of dollars of hassles..... maybe... if they indicated if the driver was holding the gas pedal or not.
I worked on transmissions... the laws for product liability insurance ofr drivetrain components are astounding. Drivetrain component suppliers would LOVE these tattle tale chips!
But worse are the spy chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.
TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders!
A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFid chips embedded in the tire).
Yup. My brother works on them.
Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.
Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.
I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].
It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.
Photos of chips before molded into tires:
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:TAQIKjBI01
(slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertess usually into the url above to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)
You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.
Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.
http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.htm
but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.
The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessings, has requested us gov make this tire scanning information as secret as the information regarding all us inkjet printers sold in usa in the last 3 years using "yellow" GUID barcode under dark ink regions to serialize printouts to thwart counterfeiting of 20 dollar bills. (30 to 40 percent of ALL California counterfeiting is done using cheap Epson inkjet printers, most purchased with credit cards foolishly). Luckily court dockets divulge the existence of the Epson serial numbers on your printouts... but nobody except a handful of people know about this Tire scanning upgrade to big brother's arsenal.
YOU MUST BUY NEUTRALIZED OR FOREIGN TIRES!!!!! Soon such tires will become illegal to import or manufacture, just as Gasoline must have "Taggants" added or gasoline is illegal, as are non-self-aging 9 mm bullets.
It is currently VERY illegal to buy or disable the "911 help" GPS emitter in digital cell phones in the US or ship a modified phone across state borders, but it is still legal to turn off your cell phone in your car while travelling. As you should. And you should be wary of your tires now too. : http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:TAQIKjBI01gC
Alternatively you could illegally build jamming devices at : 13.56 MHz, + 1,356 MHz +- many freqs (TI-RFid) and a few others. If microwave is ever employed you might not be able to effectively jam but your brain would possibly cook over time, as it now known as of this year that the three harmonic resonances of water are not the only chemical actions harming human tissue at gigaherz frequencies. Jammers would be illegal and violators easy to locate. Tire removal is the only option.
RFIDs have been covertly used and sold by TI for over ten years are in many many products... and now your tires are being read by the us gov as you drive at speeds of up to 100 Mph on primary US interstate corridors. (Actually 160 km/h).
Those same US interstate corridors have radiation detectors too, but a small layer of stacks of interlocked graphite blocks those from detecting stealthy deliveries. Graphite blocks are IDEAL for shipping "dirty bomb" components, I believe.
Anyway, regarding tire radio transmitters: the sokymat LOGI 160, and sokymat LOGI 120) are just SOME of the transponders found in modern tires. The earliest tire radio spy chips had only 64 bit serial numbers but they have rapidly evolved post Sept 11 bombings: LOGI 160 LOGI 120 has 224 bit R/W memory (sokymat.ch) to be marked using external hand help injectors with "salt" info when the fbi tags your parked car.
Basically the FBI "marks your car" without touching it physically, thus eliminating a "warrant" to put a locater on your vehicle. Just as the FBI can listen to you while you are at home by LEGALLY bouncing an infrared beam off your vibrating window pane and modulating the signal, the US Gov can LEGALLY inject (program) a saltable read-write sokymat LOGI eeprom tire chip (and other brands of tire transponders)
Using these chips to track people while they drive is actually the idea of the us gov, and current chips CANNOT BE DISABLED or removed. They hope ALL tires will have these chips in 5 years and hope people have a very hard time finding non-chipped tires. Removing the chips is near impossible without destroying the tire as the chips were designed with that DARPA design goal.
They are hardened against removal or heat damage or easy eye detection and can be almost ANYWHERE in the new "big brother" tires. In fact in current models they are integrated early and deep into the substrate of the tire as per US FBI request.
Our freedom of travel are going away in 2003, because now there is an international STANDARD for all tire transponder RFID chips and in 2004 nearly ALL USA cars will have them. Refer to AIAG B-11 ADC, (B-11 is coincidentally Post Sept 11 fastrack initiative by US Gov to speed up tire chip standardization to one read-back standard for highway usage).
The AIAG is "The Automotive Industry Action Group"
The non proprietary (non-sokymat controlled) standard is the AIAG B-11 standard is the "Tire Label and Radio Frequency Identification" standard
"ADC" stands for "Automatic Data Collection"
The "AIDCW" is the US gov manipulated "Automatic Identification Data Collection Work Group"
The standard was started and finished rapidly in less than a year as a direct consequence of the Sep 11 attacks by Saudi nationals.
I believe detection of the AIAG B-11 radio chips (RFIS serial number transponders) in the upgraded car tracking http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html is currently secret knowledge. Another reason to leave "finger print on Driver license" California, but Ohio gets it next, as will every other state eventually.
The AIAG is claiming the chips reduce car theft, assist in tracking defects, and assists error-proofing the tire assembly process. But the real secret is that these 5 cent devices are a us government backed initiative to track citizens travel without their consent or ability to disable the transponders in any way.
All tire manufacturers are forced to comply AIAG B-11 3.0 Radio Tire tracking standard by the 2004 model year.
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:-qJPsZjkMA
Viewing b11 synopsis is free, downloads from that are $10 and tracked by the FBI. Use the google cache to avoid leaving breadcrumbs.
And just as showerheads are now illegal to import into the USA from Canada or mexico, as are drums of industrial Freon, and standard size toilets are illegal to import for home use, soon car tires without radio transponders will be illegal to bring across state borders.
The US gov is getting away with this. You read it here first.
Learn and read.
It will be an interesting debate, because on the one hand the data will be useful (enough so that the automakers think they can make money off of it) and on the other it could cost the auto owner money, either by telling the truth or lying. Yes, these boxes could err, but I would expect that to be just another factor in court. Regardless, the ramifications will be extensive.
Of course, don't forget that a tamperproof box might very well save you in court. We would all benefit from less fraud in court, as it drives up insurance. And then there are the harder to quantify but likely benefits of incorporating lots of real-world data into safety design of brakes and such.
I think it should obviously be up to the driver whether to participate. Some rental car companies might decide to use the boxes to protect their property against illegal misuse -- indeed it may be their insurers that require it; perhaps a discount could be offered to those who want to opt-out, calibrated tp the differential in insurance claims between people who use the boxes and those who do not. Monitoring is not novel: for many years I've seen speed recording devices on some long-distance buses.
All of this can be argued up or down, but I don't think a flat ban on the boxes is appropriate or likely.
As an EMS professional, I can say that the thoughts of using such a system is absurd.
First off, imagine the costs of placing the computer required to access and decode this information on every single ambulance in the fleet. In our Squad the money would be much better spend on medical technology, like updating to the latest generation of defibrillators.
Medically, the information would be of little use. EMTs / Paramedics do not attempt to repair damage to patients caused by trauma. We are trained to always assume the worst, and take universal precautions when packaging, transporting and treating trauma patients. Imagine getting in a wreck and hearing the EMT treating you say "this patient only experienced 3.4 Gs in that wreck, let's just skip the spinal immobilization on this one". Even in the ED or OR the information would be of little use. The diagnostic equipment available in the hospital goes to the root of the issue, which is analyzing the patient themselves.
I think this is an attempt to put a good-for-the consumer spiel on something that would primarily be used by law enforcement.
Dan East
Better known as 318230.
Not likely. You ain't gonna be able to snip the sensor wires without some consequence. This ain't like ripping the polution control equipment off of a '72 Mustang. You won't be able to remove the sensors without the ECM screaming bloody murder and disabling the auto after a while. If you're good at figuring out what code the ECM is using, you might be able to disable the checks in software - at least until they start encrypting the code in the ECM ROM's. Bottom line, a car is more a set of sensors and actuators on wheels these days, all controlled by your friend "software". Good luck, but I think the days of being able to randomly remove parts is numbered.
That is all.
On to the point. The argument that crash data may not be used is ridiculous. Most auto-development takes place on the basis of information you receive from thousands of sensors. But while we'll be seeing more and more sensors in cars for increasing safety (passive), hell, Mercedes already leads the field, we'll not be seing "developmental" sensors anytime soon, because:
1. Collecting information is one thing, applying that to meaningful solutions quite another. One must not forget that auto development is carried out by highly specialized teams, working on some pre-defined parameters. Just how would the G-forces recorded in a pile up with SUV prove useful for Mercedes new S-class? These systems (passive safety) are already incorporated before a car is launched.
2. Development requires controlled conditions. Engineers have to know all the parameters to understand the situation. This is far easily done in the develpoment stage of the product, where you can do as much testing as your budget/schedule allows.
3. Creating an "open-format" makes it easier for companies at the lower rung to access developmental data. Like it or not, this research costs money (Mercedes spent $900 million researching on their new E-class...), and companies are definitely protective of their "way". I wonder, though, just how would a Ford or a Hyundai benefit from all the data of an E-class. It will take them a few years just to analyze the data, heh.
4. Cost. Incorporating data boxes and sensors costs money. Setting up an infrastructure to make use of all the collected data costs money. While "black-boxes" are already incorporated to some extent in higher end.... I wonder how many people would be willing to fork out, say, additional $500~800 for a Honda Jazz/Fit or a Corolla that offers no additional "features" to the consumer.
5. Morality. If we can actually make sense of all the data collected in this way, would we also require manufacturers to meet some criteria in safety? Accept it, "inequality" exists. You'll be much safer in an S-class/7series at 200 Kmph then in an Corolla/Civic at 100 Kmph. Manufacturers are always trying to give more to consumers. There is good competetion already. We don't need asinine regulations.
I am sick and tired of every Tom, Jack and New York Times reporter "advising" auto-manufacturers how to develop cars. Just shut the fuck up. Perhaps these retards don't realize, but modern automoblies are incredible feats of engineering. Thousands of components work together to ensure that some epsilon minus moron can reach his/her NYTimes office and conjure idiotic articles.
Beleive me, automobiles engineers/manufacturers are far more informed in this matter. This is not 1960s. They are already doing an absolutely terrific job, and can do well without such retarded ideas on important matters of safety.
Had these black boxes been in Ford's Explorers a few years back, we may have known 1) more quickly and 2) without speculating the way we did what exactly was causing these things to jump tread and roll.
And I suspect that that may be precisely why automakers don't want this...
If every vehicles's data is telling the manufacturer that there's a defect in the vehicle, and *anyone* can read this standardized data and interpret it as such, there goes the market share, stock price, and here come the trial lawyers.
Knowledge may be power, but it's also liability.
Ed R.Zahurak
You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.
I work on devices similiar to this under a research grant. Ours having nothing to do with the auto manufacturer. I am also limited in what I can say in regards to the technology to implement it, due to NDAs (I could post as AC, but since I'm the ONLY programmer, it would sort of be obvious anyway).
There are a number of uses for the data, beyond litigation. For instance, while there are plenty of numbers of how your Dodge Neon survives running in a brick wall at 20MPH, there's little real world data on the stresses placed on your Dodge Neon when it gets clipped at a 45 degree angle in the right rear quarter by a UPS truck. The onboard accellerometers record this information a certain amount of time before and after the impact event and upload it to a server.
In theory, the data can be used to determine the level of EMS dispatch. If your vehicle is sitting upside down on it's roof, it's far more likely that there are injuries than if you took a 12MPH hit into the rear bumper. Using cellular technology, a voice channel can be opened to the occupant to ask "Are you dead yet?". Or perhaps as EMS is being dispatched anyway, the driver can say "No, everyone is fine. We don't need EMS." This saves money and allows EMS to be dispatched to people how NEED them. And at rush hour in major cities like Atlanta, there are a LOT of accidents, particularly in inclement weather.
Road speed limits are calculated by people who supposedly know what they're doing. If you're like me, you probably wonder how such a title as "Traffic Engineer" exists, since there seems to be little evidence of any "engineering" at some intersections and traffic lights. Data from boxes like (real time data, not just crash data) that show a drivers average speed through areas can be used to calculate how traffic DOES flow, not how it SHOULD flow.
The research boxes we place don't give data back to the volunteers. However, if you're a parent, and have a dependent driver on covered by your insurance, shouldn't and don't you have a right and responsibility to know how that dependent is driving? If Jr. is taking the family SUV up to 126MPH on the local express way, don't you want to pull his keys, if for NO OTHER REASON, to keep YOUR rates low?
Such data can also be used to enforce cost-per-mile insurance. Suppose we both drive 5 miles to work, but I take back roads and you take expressways. Statistically, one will be more safe than the other, depending on area (for instance, back roads are probably LESS safe in mountainous terrain). Why should we pay the same insurance rates when one of us is driving a statistically safer route? And this data can also be used to catch people who lie to the insurance companies and say "Oh yea, I only drive 3 miles to work." when they're actually driving 30.
Emissions information can be gleaned from this data also. When emissions and milage are generated for a given model, it's based on a professional driver, driving a fixed course. The professional driver is needed so that each car is treated the same. However, the driver knows how to drive to meet the requirements. So while uniform, they're loaded numbers. The EPA would like real numbers from real cars driven by real people (for instance, my car has two throttle positions: wide-ass open, and idle). While many view the EPA as an intrusion, they also serve a useful purpose. Numbers for the Koyoto (sp?) Protocol are based on calculated emissions, not measured. I think we can all agree that breathing clearing air isn't going to hurt us, and if we're going to have numbers for how many tonnes of carbin dioxide are spewed into the air each year, they may as well be actual. Side point: Did you know that a standard two cycle engine JetSki spews more pollution in 45 minutes than any American made car manufactured in the last 5 years does in 100,000 miles?
Now, there is a dark side to all this techology. Our boxes are placed in volunteer vehicles, and not installed by manufacturers. There is a few sheets of legalise that people sign (that I haven't read) that indicate what this data from this device can and cannot be used for. I am TOTALLY against the anyone knowing where I am at all times, and how I drive. I believe in anonymous data, but I also know that data is rarely stays anonymous. It can be cross correlated with other databases, and allow people to figure out things I really don't think they have any business knowing. I have no idea how to handle that particular issue.
Lawyers and insurance companies would LOVE devices like this installed. Hell, they'd like to have cameras, pulse rate monitors, blood alcohol monitors, and orbital satellite laser platforms. Their reason is a little valid: Make the culprit, not the victim, pay. But since insurance is nothing more than government sponsored Mafia gambling, you know that will be abused in any way possible. And used to weasle out paying the victim, one way or another. (yes, IANAL, and if I had any offspring that became lawyers, I'd shoot the little bastard.)
There IS a lot of useful and cool data that can come out of this. It is a step to drive-by-wire cars, which if it eliminated accidents on expressways, I wouldn't be adverse to enabling. But there are a lot of ways this data can be misused, and I'm confident that Congress and the insurance criminals will figure out a way to abuse it.
--jcwren